Baptism Essential to Salvation

[mailmandan]

1) Peter is talking to "THEM" and he tells his subject "them' to repent and be baptized. Since Peter is speaking to the same "them" then the number DOES NOT MATTER for the same people he told to repent he told to be baptized.

In 1 Cor 16:1,2 Paul is addressing the church at Corinth and in verse 1 he refers to them by the plural "ye" In verse 2 he refers to them by the singular "each of you" He addresses the same people by both a plural and singular yet they are all still to lay by in store.

2) The verbs repent and be baptized are connect by the conjunction "and" which has a connecting power or force meaning the two cannot be separated. So BOTH verbs are followed by the modifying by the phrase "for remission of sins". Just by looking at this one verse and since there was no puncutuation used, it cannot be told if both verbs or just baptized is modified by the phase "remission of sins". You are trying to ignore the "and" and separate the two by putting repenting in front of the modifier and baptism behind the modifer.

3) both verbs are in the imperative mood. Even if the modifier "for the remission" was not in the verse the imperative alone would make both necessary to salvation for not doing them would be disobedience/sin/unrighteousness.

4) I read Biesner's argument on line and others, and I see they want people to ignore the "you"......"and be baptized every one of you" They do not discuss that the YOU is PLURAL and its antescedant is 'baptized each one"

So the verse could read "You all repent and you all be baptized each one individually for remission of sins". The singular individual, each one shows there is no proxy baptism, all of each person must be baptized

I agree with Beisner and not your biased opinion which accommodates the theology of your church and contradicts Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31. Once again, as AT Robertson said - One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. Amen!

*That's in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and also with Matthew 3:11 - ..I baptize you with water FOR "in order to obtain" repentance.. or FOR "in regards to" "on the basis of" repentance? If translated "in order to obtain", the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR "in order to obtain" repentance? NO. I baptize you with water FOR in regards to/on the basis of repentance. *Perfect Harmony. Also in Mark 1:5 and Luke 3:3, we read "..baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." Keep in mind this was BEFORE the cross and you teach that water baptism was not necessary for salvation until after the cross. So explain to me the difference here:

Before the cross - "..baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3).

After the cross - "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). I'm hearing the same message. Baptism is to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they received through repentance. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony.

In Acts 10:44-47, we see that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentile believers and they spoke with tongues and magnified God before they were water baptized in (vs. 48). Are you trying to tell me that these Gentiles did not BELIEVE IN HIM prior to being water baptized? Is believing in Him, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues and magnifying God descriptive of children of the devil or children of God? In Acts 11:17, referring back to the events that took place in Acts 10:43-47, we read "If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" Compare with Acts 16:31 - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.." When did these Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? When they BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. When did they BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND BECOME SAVED? BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 10:43-47). *Solid Biblical proof.

5) Gal 3:27 says baptized into Christ and NOT repent into Christ. SO repentance cannot put on in Christ therefore repentance without baptism cannot save.

In Acts 11:17, Peter said they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (compare with Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45 "gift of the Holy Spirit". Peter goes on to say in Acts 11:18 that God has granted unto the Gentiles repentance unto life. Repent and believe the gospel. You can't have one without the other. Does Galatians 3:27 refer to water baptism or Spirit? 1 Corinthians 12:13 says by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. Not a drop of water in that verse. Ephesians 1:13 says In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. Repent "change your mind" new direction of this change of mind "believe the gospel" result - sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

So how is one water baptized into Christ? Notice in Galatians 3:27 that those who were baptized into Christ have "put on Christ." Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it's lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let's be consistent. I just thought that I would mention all of this since you are so good at cherry picking from scripture what you want to hear and force it to conform to the theology of your church. You need to go deeper.

Rom 6:3-6 says baptism puts on into Christ's death and NOT repentance. So repentance does NOT put one in Christis death where Christ shed his blood that washes away sins, so repentance cannot be for remission of sins for repentance does not put one in Christ's death.

Water baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. *As Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains - "Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized."

The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Baptism is a picture of death and burial symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death. We shall be also united in the likeness of his resurrection. Since you make no distinction between the symbol (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism), these verses continue to keep you confused.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

So much for repentance cannot be for remission of sins. Water baptism does not literally put one into Christ's death. You are mixed up by Paul's picturesque language. Repentance and believing in Him are two sides to the same coin that result in the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[newbirth]

I'm not saying there is no water baptism. "One" baptism does not mean that only one type of baptism exists. Even though there are baptisms (plural - Hebrews 6:2); in (Matthew 3:11) we see 3 baptisms. I indeed BAPTIZE you with 1. WATER for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will BAPTIZE you with the 2. HOLY SPIRIT and 3. FIRE. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13). Are you saying there is no Spirit baptism? The Holy Spirit performs Spirit baptism, not man. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Well the command to baptise in water is still valid and it is the only baptism man is commanded to perform. What God does no man can do or force him to do. God can spirit baptise anyone anytime anywhere, God is not a respector of person. But that does not alter the fact...that Jesus commanded....
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
And Peter teaches...
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The scripture is not for our personal interpretation , we can't change the word because we think it makes more sense how we lay it out. Look at all the scripture verses you produce because you want water baptism to be of no effect. If God word says ...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is this not evidence that baptism is essential to salvation. Can there be salvation without remission of sins? That is how God planned it ...even though it is symbolic that is the way he wants it.

 

[mailmandan]

So you have no faith in Christ.... since the water is symbolic and he is doing the actual cleansing

I have faith in Christ. My faith is not in "water and works" for salvation but is exclusively in Christ for salvation. Does God do the actual cleansing or does plain ordinary H20? In Jeremiah 2:13, God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water. In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." Jesus, in offering the Spirit for those who believe in Him (John 7:37-39), this living water does depict the Spirit and Life and is able to satisfy people's thirst (John 4:10,14) and bring washing of regeneration/purification of the soul and everlasting life. Praise God!

...your faith is in your understanding of the word.

My faith is in Christ for salvation. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. No supplements needed. Your understanding of the word leads you to works salvation. That's not faith in Christ but faith in works.

Do you think this was necessary for the blind to see?...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

And??? Did everyone wash in the pool of Siloam in order to be healed?

We are saved by the grace of God but as long as one can find excuses to not obey the word he is not worthy of being called.

What do you mean find excuses to not obey the word? Refusing to obey the gospel is refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Attempting to obtain salvation by works is not obedience.

God does what he does but man have to do what God says. Now judge for yourself ... the scripture say...(1)believe on the Lord and you will be saved. But it also says (2) we are saved by grace through faith.

Amen! Do you believe Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8 or do you believe that Paul really meant, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved in Acts 16:31? Do you believe that Paul really meant what he said in Ephesians 2:8, that "we are saved by grace through faith" or do you think he really meant by grace through faith and water and works?

Yet again it says (3) Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Well, you have heard the arguments for baptism being for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins and that "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. The question that I have for you is which interpretation is in harmony with the rest of scripture?

In Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

These Gentiles were baptized in water (vs. 48) AFTER they had already BELIEVED, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved (Acts 10:43-47). *Two distinct actions* So in Acts 10:44-47, we see that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentile believers and they spoke with tongues and magnified God and were saved BEFORE they were water baptized in (vs. 48). In Acts 11:17, we see that God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as he gave us, who BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" It was established that they BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE they were baptized. Placing their faith in Christ for salvation constituted BELIEVING. Baptism took place AFTERWARDS. Just as Acts 16:31 says to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. I clearly showed you from Scripture that there is a distinction between BELIEVING and getting baptized AFTERWARDS. Is this clear enough for you?

(1)Many people teach you just have to believe...that's it
(2)Many people teach we are saved by our faith
(3)Many people teach since you are saved by believing /faith water baptism is not part of the salvation plan.

Faith is not water baptism and faith precedes water baptism and we are saved through faith. I've been water baptized but it was after I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. My salvation was signified, but not procured in water baptism.

So Grace is left completely out of the picture.
Obedience becomes sin.
Your works becomes filth rags.
Man's wisdom cannot explain God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.. what happened to baptism? It follows faith and conversion.

Attempted obedience without faith becomes sin.
Your works are filthy rags.
Man's wisdom cannot explain God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. It still says ....
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice save them that BELIEVE. The Bible does not say believe in your baptism and you will be saved, it says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Whatever you are trusting in to save you, that's what you BELIEVE in. I know what Acts 2:38 says. I also know what Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 says as well. After harmonizing scripture with scripture, my conclusion is: Faith in Jesus Christ/believe in Him "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* So what are you believing/trusting in for salvation? Christ's finished work of redemption or water and works?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you are mis reading the 28th chapter of Matthew. He said make disciples of all nations, How do you make disciples, by baptizing them in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit, and by teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you. So baptism is a part of making disciples.

No. I understand correctly.

Go and make disciples. Then disciple them in the name of the father son and holy spirit

The bottom line is you still have a problem with two baptisms.

Quite frankly, I am a little tired of this subject and I would like to move on to something else. Feel free to take the last word.

No I have no problem with this. for some reason you do. and for that I am saddened

The OT had a type of this, called circumcision. which represented cleansing.

The circumcized were seen as clean, the uncircumcised were seen as dirty, or unclean.

of course col 2 lets us know there was a spiritual circumcision as well as a physical. the physical represented the spiriutal. But did not clean anyone.

same with baptism there is a physical and spiriual

the spiritual is performed by God. this actually cleans us and makes us clean. It is called the washing of water by the word. the washing of regeneration of the HS. the living water which springs to eternal life.

and the physical. which, just like the OT form of cleansing, symbolize that which actually cleans us

God said in the OT, I will wash you and make you clean. Spirit baptism is the act which does this.

of note. spiritual baptism is NOT spirit anointing. they are two different events of the holy spirit in the act of saving a soul.
.

 

[mailmandan]

Well the command to baptise in water is still valid and it is the only baptism man is commanded to perform.

Amen! I believe that water baptism is still valid and is a command that we are expected to obey. However, I don't believe that it's obedience to this command that saves us. We are saved through believing in Christ (John 3:16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31 etc..). Water baptism follows and testifies of our faith in Christ. Spirit baptism is still valid as well - 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.. ALL who believe the gospel are sealed in Him (Christ) with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). Spirit baptism is not limited to Acts 2 and Acts 10, as the church of Christ teaches.

What God does no man can do or force him to do. God can spirit baptise anyone anytime anywhere, God is not a respector of person.

God promises that believers will receive the Holy Spirit and not only certain people at random (John 7:38-39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9).

But that does not alter the fact...that Jesus commanded....
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Amen! I don't preach against the great commission, but I don't believe that Jesus taught baptismal regeneration.

And Peter teaches...
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

If your argument is true, then it should be consistently taught throughout scripture. Right? Yet, in Acts 3:19, Peter promised forgiveness on the basis of repentance without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:19 – Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out). In Acts 10:43 we see that whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism? In Acts 10:44-47, we see that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentile believers and they spoke with tongues and magnified God and were saved BEFORE they were water baptized in (vs. 48). In Acts 11:17, we see that God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as he gave us, who BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" *No mention of water baptism. In Acts 15:7, Peter said that Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and BELIEVE. *No mention of baptism and baptism is not a part of the gospel. The gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). In Acts 15:8-9, we see that God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by FAITH. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

So after examining ALL of these scriptures here, I agree with Greek scholar AT Robertson when he said, "I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received" (through repentance/faith).

The scripture is not for our personal interpretation, we can't change the word because we think it makes more sense how we lay it out. Look at all the scripture verses you produce because you want water baptism to be of no effect.

After harmonizing scripture with scripture, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). The Bible doesn't say that whoever is not water baptized will not be saved. A careful examination of texts on baptism in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is a necessary prerequisite for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

If God word says ...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is this not evidence that baptism is essential to salvation.

If God says whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43); Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? (Acts 10:47); If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"(Acts 11:17); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.. (Acts 16:31). Is this not evidence that baptism is not absolutely essential to salvation?

Can there be salvation without remission of sins?

No. Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). Believing in Him is not baptism and believing in Him precedes baptism and we are saved when we believe in Him for salvation. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is believing in Christ for salvation. Believing in Him/Faith is implied in repentance. You can't have one without the other.

That is how God planned it ...even though it is symbolic that is the way he wants it.

You said the right word. Baptism is a "symbol" of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrections and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. No supplements needed to help save us.

 

[newbirth]

I have faith in Christ. My faith is not in "water and works" for salvation but is exclusively in Christ for salvation. Does God do the actual cleansing or does plain ordinary H20? In Jeremiah 2:13, God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water. In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." Jesus, in offering the Spirit for those who believe in Him (John 7:37-39), this living water does depict the Spirit and Life and is able to satisfy people's thirst (John 4:10,14) and bring washing of regeneration/purification of the soul and everlasting life. Praise God!

You have so much hate for works that you see all works as works for salvation...
Those who have faith in Christ are thus...For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

My faith is in Christ for salvation. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. No supplements needed. Your understanding of the word leads you to works salvation. That's not faith in Christ but faith in works.

Faith without works is dead...show me your faith without works...

And??? Did everyone wash in the pool of Siloam in order to be healed?

You don't have a clue do you? washing in the pool did not heal neither did the spit it was the power of God.,but if the blind man did not obey do you think he would have been healed?

What do you mean find excuses to not obey the word? Refusing to obey the gospel is refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Attempting to obtain salvation by works is not obedience.

You can tell that to someone who does not know we are saved by GRACE through faith and faith without works is dead

Amen! Do you believe Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8 or do you believe that Paul really meant, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved in Acts 16:31? Do you believe that Paul really meant what he said in Ephesians 2:8, that "we are saved by grace through faith" or do you think he really meant by grace through faith and water and works?

Christ said to do many things and you do none...But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Well, you have heard the arguments for baptism being for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins and that "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. The question that I have for you is which interpretation is in harmony with the rest of scripture?

with your great intellect and all your clause ...it is impossible for simple men to be saved... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I think by this time Paul would have already repented.

In Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

These Gentiles were baptized in water (vs. 48) AFTER they had already BELIEVED, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved (Acts 10:43-47). *Two distinct actions* So in Acts 10:44-47, we see that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentile believers and they spoke with tongues and magnified God and were saved BEFORE they were water baptized in (vs. 48). In Acts 11:17, we see that God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as he gave us, who BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" It was established that they BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE they were baptized. Placing their faith in Christ for salvation constituted BELIEVING. Baptism took place AFTERWARDS. Just as Acts 16:31 says to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. I clearly showed you from Scripture that there is a distinction between BELIEVING and getting baptized AFTERWARDS. Is this clear enough for you?

Do you suppose baptism, which you say has nothing to do with our salvation ,would be commanded to be done to those who received the promise of the HS before being baptised.

Faith is not water baptism and faith precedes water baptism and we are saved through faith. I've been water baptized but it was after I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. My salvation was signified, but not procured in water baptism.

Do you suppose baptism for the remission of sins has stopped? or the teaching of John is contrary to the teaching of Christ? Was he he preaching the gospel of Christ or not?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.. what happened to baptism? It follows faith and conversion.

Really? do you think this epistle is to those who have not been baptised?

Attempted obedience without faith becomes sin.
Your works are filthy rags.
Man's wisdom cannot explain God.

I will not dare tell anyone obeying Christ they are without faith. And I will not dare tell a man in Christ his works are filthy rags.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice save them that BELIEVE. The Bible does not say believe in your baptism and you will be saved, it says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Whatever you are trusting in to save you, that's what you BELIEVE in. I know what Acts 2:38 says. I also know what Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 says as well. After harmonizing scripture with scripture, my conclusion is: Faith in Jesus Christ/believe in Him "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* So what are you believing/trusting in for salvation? Christ's finished work of redemption or water and works?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You just proved you trust your conclusion over the word of God.

 

[SolidGround]

Form of godliness, yet denying it's power.

If you are not reborn in spirit, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, received at salvation,
then you cannot enter the Kingdom.

Only spirit can enter heaven.
Water is not going to help you in that.
Water is a representation, a symbol, and an expression of what already happened spiritually to the believer.

There is a sharp hermeneutic divide that we have here.
One side divides us from the Apostolic Age, yet does not divide us from salvation by works.
The other does not divide us from the Apostolic Age, yet divides us from salvation by works.

 

[Alligator]

Form of godliness, yet denying it's power.

If you are not reborn in spirit, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, received at salvation,
then you cannot enter the Kingdom.

Only spirit can enter heaven.
Water is not going to help you in that.
Water is a representation, a symbol, and an expression of what already happened spiritually to the believer.

There is a sharp hermeneutic divide that we have here.
One side divides us from the Apostolic Age, yet does not divide us from salvation by works.
The other does not divide us from the Apostolic Age, yet divides us from salvation by works.

i would like to see the scriptures you use to support this. We receive the Spirit at the time of our conversion, Acts 2:38, but that is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, The Bible does not call baptism a symbol.

 

[Kerry]

i would like to see the scriptures you use to support this. We receive the Spirit at the time of our conversion, Acts 2:38, but that is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, The Bible does not call baptism a symbol.

You are right we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, but are not immersed or baptized in the Holt Spirit until it is evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

 

[mailmandan]

You have so much hate for works that you see all works as works for salvation...

I don't have hate for works at all. I just put works in their proper place - FRUIT OF SALVATION, NOT THE ROOT. Which works do you see as works for salvation and add as supplements to the cross in order to help Christ save us and which works do you not see as works for salvation?

Those who have faith in Christ are thus...For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto goodworks, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 ..through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. You seem to have it backwards. Cart before the horse. In regards to those who profess to know God but in works deny Him, who is being addressed? Context...
Titus 1:10 - For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Faith without works is dead...show me your faith without works...

Faith without works is dead and it's not because works are the source of life in faith, but because works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith. Good works SHOW that our faith is alive. Our faith is made alive in Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) FIRST then we are created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works (vs. 10) and not the other way around. Does a dead faith produce works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith? Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree? Life flows through the ROOT and produces fruit.

You don't have a clue do you? washing in the pool did not heal neither did the spit it was the power of God.,but if the blind man did not obey do you think he would have been healed?

No I am not clueless, I understand that. If the man would have refused to obey, he would have demonstrated his lack of faith. By choosing to obey what Jesus told him to do, he demonstrated his faith. Are you using this example to negate salvation through faith and say there is more that we must obey (namely water baptism) before Jesus can save us? What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Is choosing to believe in Jesus for salvation obedience or disobedience? Did Jesus say that whoever BELIEVES shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life, or did He say there is more to obey first?

You can tell that to someone who does not know we are saved by GRACE through faith and faith without works is dead

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* We are NOT saved by works. James 2 is a major stumbling block for those who cannot grasp that salvation is through faith and is not by works.

Christ said to do many things and you do none...But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

So now you sit as my Judge? Christ said do many things and I have done none of those things? You infallibly know this? How do you know that I am not a doer of the word? There is a difference between what Christ tells us to do to become saved and what He tells us to do after we have been saved. So what many things has Christ told me to do in which I have done none?

with your great intellect and all your clause ...it is impossible for simple men to be saved... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I think by this time Paul would have already repented.

So this verse which "on the surface" appears to teach baptismal regeneration has thrown you off and caused you to negate the multitude of passages that make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications". The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events. What does Acts 10:43 says about receiving remission of sins? Is this accomplished in baptism or believing in Him?

It's also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.

Do you suppose baptism, which you say has nothing to do with our salvation, would be commanded to be done to those who received the promise of the HS before being baptised.

Just because baptism is not the cause of our salvation does not mean that baptism has nothing to do at all with our salvation. Baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. That is "something." Why do you suppose the command to be water baptized came AFTER to those who already believed, received the Holy Spirit and were saved? (Acts 10:43-47). Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31; 11:17,18).

Do you suppose baptism for the remission of sins has stopped? or the teaching of John is contrary to the teaching of Christ? Was he he preaching the gospel of Christ or not?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Why did you leave out the words baptism of repentance for the remission of sins has stopped? Was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance? In Matthew 3:11, John said, "I baptize you with water FOR repentance". Was this baptism in order to obtain repentance or in regards to/on the basis of repentance? Did John preach the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of Christ? Is that where you are going with this?

Really? do you think this epistle is to those who have not been baptised?

Doesn't matter. We have access by faith into grace which is not the same as having access by baptism into grace. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism. How do you not see that?

I will not dare tell anyone obeying Christ they are without faith. And I will not dare tell a man in Christ his works are filthy rags.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Those who truly obey Christ are not without faith and the man who is truly in Christ, his works are not filthy rags. A good tree produces good fruit but a bad tree produces bad fruit. The problem is, not everyone who believes they are in Christ and obey Christ really are and do. There are many deceived people who think they are saved (but are trusting in the wrong thing as the means of their salvation) in the religious world (Matthew 7:22-23). Amen to 1 John 3:7-10!

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or damned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. Did He forget to mention baptism?

 

[mailmandan]

i would like to see the scriptures you use to support this. We receive the Spirit at the time of our conversion, Acts 2:38, but that is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also, The Bible does not call baptism a symbol.

Please explain to us the difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Spirit baptism.

Also explain to us the difference between ..the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and ..the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45.

 

[newbirth]

Amen! I believe that water baptism is still valid and is a command that we are expected to obey. However, I don't believe that it's obedience to this command that saves us. We are saved through believing in Christ (John 3:16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31 etc..). Water baptism follows and testifies of our faith in Christ. Spirit baptism is still valid as well - 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body.. ALL who believe the gospel are sealed in Him (Christ) with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). Spirit baptism is not limited to Acts 2 and Acts 10, as the church of Christ teaches.

Still you don't seem to understand...We are saved by GRACE...God did that ...through faith God gives us power to do this. It is not one act of faith that saves but a life of faith in obedience to Christ, that is what it means to believe in Christ. All his teachings all his ways.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
We now have the likeness of Christ, that we should walk like him and be obedient to him even if it means death.

God promises that believers will receive the Holy Spirit and not only certain people at random (John 7:38-39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9).


Amen! I don't preach against the great commission, but I don't believe that Jesus taught baptismal regeneration.

Do you believe Jesus said this?...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If your argument is true, then it should be consistently taught throughout scripture. Right? Yet, in Acts 3:19, Peter promised forgiveness on the basis of repentance without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:19 – Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out). In Acts 10:43 we see that whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism? In Acts 10:44-47, we see that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentile believers and they spoke with tongues and magnified God and were saved BEFORE they were water baptized in (vs. 48). In Acts 11:17, we see that God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as he gave us, who BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" *No mention of water baptism. In Acts 15:7, Peter said that Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and BELIEVE. *No mention of baptism and baptism is not a part of the gospel. The gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). In Acts 15:8-9, we see that God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us
and them, for he purified their hearts by FAITH. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

By your words it is obvious you think water baptism is not necessary for salvation, it is of no value it is a work and our works are filth rags. but you did it. And I am sure you teach men to do it, or do you? Why did you do it and if you teach men to do it, why if it is not necessary?
Hermeneutics
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So after examining ALL of these scriptures here, I agree with Greek scholar AT Robertson when he said, "I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received" (through repentance/faith).

so after examining Robertson you agreed with him

After harmonizing scripture with scripture, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). The Bible doesn't say that whoever is not water baptized will not be saved. A careful examination of texts on baptism in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is a necessary prerequisite for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If God says whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43); Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? (Acts 10:47); If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"(Acts 11:17); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.. (Acts 16:31). Is this not evidence that baptism is not absolutely essential to salvation?

Why was it necessary to command them to be baptised even though they had already received the Holy Spirit

No. Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). Believing in Him is not baptism and believing in Him precedes baptism and we are saved when we believe in Him for salvation. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is believing in Christ for salvation. Believing in Him/Faith is implied in repentance. You can't have one without the other.

But if you say you believe him and you are not baptised then you don't believe him do you? A change of mind results in a change of action. You were disobedient now you should be obedient to God's word. A new creature ,created unto good works.

You said the right word. Baptism is a "symbol" of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrections and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete. No supplements needed to help save us.

In reality believers are saved by Grace, through faith, water baptism is an act of faith just like blind man washing in the pool.
That is why he said..
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Anyone who says they believe in Christ and deny his word is a liar. If we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death, how can we be also in the likeness of his resurrection? If we have not been buried with him by baptism into death how can we walk in newness of life, like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father?

 

[newbirth]

Doesn't matter. We have access by faith into grace which is not the same as having access by baptism into grace. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism. How do you not see that?
Those who truly obey Christ are not without faith and the man who is truly in Christ, his works are not filthy rags. A good tree produces good fruit but a bad tree produces bad fruit. The problem is, not everyone who believes they are in Christ and obey Christ really are and do. There are many deceived people who think they are saved (but are trusting in the wrong thing as the means of their salvation) in the religious world (Matthew 7:22-23). Amen to 1 John 3:7-10!
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or damned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. Did He forget to mention baptism?

The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation.

No friend common sense will tell you those who believe and is baptised means being baptised is a sign of believing but he that believeth not , will not show the sign because he does not believe. How would you insert baptised into that sentence?..."but he that believeth not shall be damned "

 

[notuptome]

Anyone who says they believe in Christ and deny his word is a liar. If we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death, how can we be also in the likeness of his resurrection? If we have not been buried with him by baptism into death how can we walk in newness of life, like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father?

I suggest that before you hurl accusations at another person you make certain you have your facts in perfect order. You appear by your position to lack an understanding of the difference between Holy Spirit and water baptisms.

Water baptism is not essential to salvation. The Holy Spirit baptism, not as the Pentecostals portray it but as God administers it, is essential to salvation. It is the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit that makes alive the soul that was dead in trespass and sin.

You do yourself a great disservice by calling others liars when there is obvious error in your teachings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

If God says whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43); Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? (Acts 10:47); If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"(Acts 11:17); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.. (Acts 16:31). Is this not evidence that baptism is not absolutely essential to salvation?



.

Can you see a difference here....." If God says whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43) "

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

now you will go for a *Hermeneutics.* to change the word again...God bless

 

[newbirth]

I suggest that before you hurl accusations at another person you make certain you have your facts in perfect order. You appear by your position to lack an understanding of the difference between Holy Spirit and water baptisms.

Water baptism is not essential to salvation. The Holy Spirit baptism, not as the Pentecostals portray it but as God administers it, is essential to salvation. It is the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit that makes alive the soul that was dead in trespass and sin.

You do yourself a great disservice by calling others liars when there is obvious error in your teachings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Anyone who says they believe in Christ and deny his word is a liar. And this goes for everyone including me.
This is what God does....
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


This is what God tells you to do.. this is the act of faith in his blood.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Was Paul lying to us...or is water baptism the place where God washes away our sins.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[notuptome]

Anyone who says they believe in Christ and deny his word is a liar. And this goes for everyone including me.
This is what God does....
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


This is what God tells you to do.. this is the act of faith in his blood.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Was Paul lying to us...or is water baptism the place where God washes away our sins.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Well you would be well advised to reserve your condemnation until you understand the entirety of the scripture in question.
Titus 3:5 makes it clear that it is Holy Spirit not water that cleanses and regenerates.

We must use care not to set one scripture against another when we endeavor to understand what God is saying. Scripture never conflicts with itself. A fact often lost in the more ardent exchanges when the combatants are exercising well worn arguments.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

I agree with Beisner and not your biased opinion which accommodates the theology of your church and contradicts Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31. Once again, as AT Robertson said - One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. Amen!

So Peter is lying to them ....How is one forgiven of the same sins twice ? If you say they were already forgiven and Peter says, be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Who should I believe You or Peter.
After the encounter with Christ Paul would have no doubt believed and repented. Why was he commanded thus...
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.





.

You are trying to explain God in Man's understanding you place *Hermeneutics.* and AT Robertson over the anointing
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[mailmandan]

You just proved you trust your conclusion over the word of God.

I just proved that my conclusion is in perfect harmony with the Word of God. It's YOU who trusts your conclusion based on your biased theology over the Word of God. Everything that I explained to you in post #803 just seemed to go right over your head. You didn't even bother to answer my questions.

 

[mailmandan]

Anyone who says they believe in Christ and deny his word is a liar. If we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death, how can we be also in the likeness of his resurrection? If we have not been buried with him by baptism into death how can we walk in newness of life, like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father?

Anyone who says they believe in Christ yet trusts in water and works for salvation believes in water and works and not exclusively in Christ. Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ (immersion in water) and being raised to new life with Christ (emergence from water). This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place when we believed the gospel. Hence, believers now have the power to walk in newness of life. You confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).