Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Timeline]

All I can say is that good wine is wine from the best grapes, and aged for the proper amount of time. For the master of the feast to call it good wine, it had to contain alcohol. Grape juice would not cut it at a wedding feast during this era.

Yes, and we can also note that several times "drunkenness" is connected to judgment from God in the OT. We can see that John follows the miracle at Cana with Jesus going into the Temple and chasing the vendors out.

Jeremiah 13:13
then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold I am about to fill all the inhabitants of this land—the kings that sit for David on his throne, the priests, the prophets and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness!

Jeremiah 51:39
“When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up,” declares the Lord.

Isaiah 24:20
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

There are many references to becoming drunk, several that say something similar to "but not with wine", but the symbolism stands, imo.

 

[Jason0047]

wait -- what??

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,
“Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
(Revelation 19:17-18)

you think the birds of the air are the saints??

Jesus said in the Olivet discourse,

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• Luke 17:34-37

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."


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The saints are eagles. You know that popular verse about those that wait upon the Lord in Isaiah 40:31?

you think a marriage supper consists of dining on the corpses of your enemies?

I already said that this was not the case. It is metaphorical. How do we know? Just read the passage in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 39:17-20). Pay special close attention to verses 18, 19, and 20. It changes the conversation to talking to the reader (ye or you all (Who is supposed to be a believer)).

do you think the miracle at Cana was a metaphor??

Revelation is full of pictures and symbolism (metaphors). It is written in code because it is a prophecy of the End Times.

 

[Jason0047]

The Wedding at Cana is not a prophecy of the End Times and was not a vision given to a disciple. The Wedding at Cana was a real life event. Just as the vision given to John was very real (But it was given to him thru both literal means, and pictures and symbols, too).

 

[Jason0047]

it remains that they are both words describing beverages with an alcoholic content.
i see no scriptural ground to stand on to say that when Jesus turned water into wine, what He really did was make fruit punch.

Although you may not agree with my Biblical position on this topic, lets please try and refrain from making fun of the Scriptures. For if you are wrong, you would be mocking God's Word (And that would not be good).

 

[secularhermit]

wait -- what??

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,
“Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
(Revelation 19:17-18)

you think the birds of the air are the saints??

you think a marriage supper consists of dining on the corpses of your enemies?

do you think the miracle at Cana was a metaphor??

We are not invited to a wedding, sir, we were invited to a fast feast. :P

Mat 22:10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
Mat 22:11 "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[Jason0047]

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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]#1. Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advise or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.
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i think you should read the rest of the Proverb:

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:4-9)

Paul said drink a little wine for the infirmities of your stomach. That is what the rest of the Proverb is saying. It is saying that it is allowed for medical reasons and not for getting drunk at a party. Wine is not for kings; And Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He would obey His own Word because that is what He did so as to be our substitute.

did Christ only make wine for Himself (the King) or for all the guests?

Jesus Christ led by example; Also, many who are in favor of defending their drink or that Jesus made the guests even more drunk (Which would be a sin), are under the belief that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, too. They falsely believe this because he was called a winebibber. But they fail to realize is that this was a lie. Just as it was a lie when the Parisees said he was born of fornication.

were all the guests of the wedding rulers and judges whose minds would be clouded and so might pervert justice while celebrating?

have you read what the law said to do with your tithe if you were too far from Jerusalem to bring it to the temple? have a look:

But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose.
Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.
(Deuteronomy 14:24-26)

my, but that's interesting!

This is not a new passage for me. I have studied, and discussed this passage before.

I will give my explanation in my next post.

 

[phil112]

Well, this is not the first time I debated this topic before; And I am fully aware of the verse you brought up. So you are not telling me anything new or surprising. In other words, I am not twisting the Scriptures. How so?

...................

Son, you said you new wine isn't alcoholic. That scripture clearly proves that when they talk about new wine it is indeed an alcoholic beverage. That is twisting scripture to your purpose. If you have had this conversation before then you already knew this, which means you have chosen to accept a "private interpretation" of scripture. That is not a good thing.

 

[Jason0047]

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As for the passage in Deuteronomy 14: Well, God told the Israelites that the reason why they might know He is the Lord God is because they have not touched wine or strong drink.

Deuteronomy 29:2-6

2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;

3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:

4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God."

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So one if Deuteronomy 29:6 says that they did not drink strong drink, and Deuteronomy 14:26 says God gave them strong drink, then we would have a contradiction in the Bible; And that is just not possible. Therefore, Deuteronomy 14:26 is talking about unfermented wine and strong fruit beverages. For Deuteronomy 14:22-26 dealt with the tithe offerings to the Lord. These tithes were offerings unto God. And the daily offerings included meat and drink offerings. Leaven, which is a yeast, is forbidden in the daily meat offerings (Leviticus 2:11 KJV). In fact, Leviticus 2:11 specifically states, "ye shall burn no leaven... in any offering of the LORD made by fire." And the drink offerings most of the time were made by fire (Which included the daily offerings: (Exodus 29:41 KJV) (Numbers 28:7, 8) the First fruits Feast of Weeks: (Leviticus 23:18 KJV) and the Feast of Trumpets: (Numbers 29:6 KJV)).

For leaven (yeast) is representative of sin within the Bible.
And alcoholic wine is made by the yeast activating with the sugars within the alcohol. Many times this yeast is naturally present as a powder like substance upon the skin of the grape; And sometimes it is not there.

Today, most wine makers add cultured yeast to the crushed grapes which creates the alcoholic wines that we have in our modern day world.

Without the yeast, you do not have alcohol.
And this wine or drink offering in the Old Testament was not allowed to have yeast or leaven within them because they represented the sinless pure blood of Jesus Christ.



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[posthuman]

Although you may not agree with my Biblical position on this topic, lets please try and refrain from making fun of the Scriptures. For if you are wrong, you would be mocking God's Word (And that would not be good).

there's no reason to be enemies; a brother is born for adversity.

it's my view that oinos means oinos and aged oinos is preferable to guests at a wedding celebration whose hearts are already merry with it, and trying to read into it absolute prohibition because for another reason one believes in prohibition is having play with the scripture; that's the sentiment i meant to allude to with my fruit punch comment. i love the Word, and i love that you defend it, and i didn't mean to demean it! thanks.

i think it's like several other topics we as humans project onto the Word - like war, or animal sacrifice, or inhospitality - there's a right time for all these things and a right reason. drunkenness is foolish, however it's not what goes into our mouths, but what comes out that makes us unclean. gluttony is sin, but the Lord gave feasts to His people for remembrance, not fast days.

for eternity - i think we will have many causes for feasting! i see what you mean now about celebrating over Christ's triumph, but i don't think that's the same feast as the marriage supper. it may be that in that day all the celebration runs together into one!!

 

[oldernotwiser]

well i would have to make a couple of comments on this. first, there is no such thing as "unfermented wine." if its not fermented then its grape juice. it should be easy to prove your argument tho. im sure that the library at either union or the jewish theological seminary would have a record of when the decision to use wine rather than grape juice at weddings was made. i dont know if you have been to a jewish wedding but i have and i suspect that if they ran out of wine and someone replaced it with grape juice he might be thrown out.

 

[Jason0047]

Son, you said you new wine isn't alcoholic. That scripture clearly proves that when they talk about new wine it is indeed an alcoholic beverage. That is twisting scripture to your purpose. If you have had this conversation before then you already knew this, which means you have chosen to accept a "private interpretation" of scripture. That is not a good thing.

First, you are being condescending by calling me your son. You are not superior or better than me or anyone else. We are all nothing but clay jars to be smashed for the glory of Jesus Christ. Second, I have explained that the Bible has homonyms within it. These are words that look the same and sound the same but they can have completely two different meanings. Do you not believe that there no homonyms in the Bible? That would just be silly if you didn't believe that. There are a ton of them in the Bible. For example: All doesn't mean all in the Bible. Sons of God can be either in reference to angels or to believers.

Do you care to show me according to the context how all the words "new wine" are always in reference to alcoholic wine?
Why have you refused to debate the issue of the points I brought up?

 

[posthuman]

How to Make Delicious Homemade Wine without yeast | eHow

 

[Jason0047]

well i would have to make a couple of comments on this. first, there is no such thing as "unfermented wine." if its not fermented then its grape juice.

Dictionaries of ages past would disagree with you. They define "wine" as either fermented or unfermented. This can be traced all the way back to written documents in Biblical times.

it should be easy to prove your argument tho. im sure that the library at either union or the jewish theological seminary would have a record of when the decision to use wine rather than grape juice at weddings was made. i dont know if you have been to a jewish wedding but i have and i suspect that if they ran out of wine and someone replaced it with grape juice he might be thrown out.

The Jews are not exactly following the Messiah currently. Someday they will. But not right now.

 

[Jason0047]

How to Make Delicious Homemade Wine without yeast | eHow

Black berries, like cultured yeast (not natural yeast) is something that must be added.

 

[Jason0047]

Besides, saying that men back in Biblical times primarily made all alcoholic wine by using black berries seems highly unlikely. Usually it was the natural yeast on the grape that made alcoholic wine.

 

[Jason0047]

Yeast was also added to leavened bread, too. Yeast represented sin. Just as drunkenness is a sin.

 

[Ukorin]

Since when was grape juice considered good wine?

I realize you guys don't agree with drinking in any form, but you are going too far with it.

Don't let your personal views interpreter the Bible for you.

 

[posthuman]

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Paul said drink a little wine for the infirmities of your stomach. That is what the rest of the Proverb is saying. It is saying that it is allowed for medical reasons and not for getting drunk at a party.

i am glad to hear that "poverty" and a "heavy heart" is a medical condition!

should be covered in any basic plan now under Obamacare!

Black berries, like cultured yeast (not natural yeast) is something that must be added.

blackberries and sugar are not "leaven" - that's all i hoped to convey

 

[Jason0047]

Since when was grape juice considered good wine?

I realize you guys don't agree with drinking in any form, but you are going too far with it.

Don't let your personal views interpreter the Bible for you.

First, the words "good wine" only is referred to once within Scripture and there is no indication that it is said to be alcoholic. Second, I think people are reading too much into the word "wine" and creating their own private interpretation of what that word means based on our current modern understanding of that word. Third, I am an Abstentionist. That means that while I believe it is lawful for a Christian to drink moderately and soberly in the privacy of their own home, I also believe it is important that I warn them of the potential dangers of alcohol as described in the Bible. For the Scriptures say that strong drink is a mocker and that it can bite you like a serpent.

 

[posthuman]

First, the words "good wine" only is referred to once within Scripture

yes! that's it -- referred to by the man in charge of a feast, in which all the guests were being served intoxicating wine!

i completely agree with you about warning each other not to be given to drunkenness. i don't like calling myself a ______-ist in general tho