Who Killed Goliath?

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#41
It certainly isn't because I can't spot them or lead you to them, but because even when you're looking right at them you see nothing.
How do you know that you can spot them & lead others to them?
How do you know that when he looks he sees nothing?
How do you know that you showed something significant?

Muslims still believe the Qur'an. It isn't because everyone has failed to spot the mistakes but because Muslims are convinced that their book is without mistake, and so they continue to believe even long past having good reason to do so. But I'm sure you're different. You have a bible that can't possibly be wrong, but they do, and even though you both defend your books exactly the same (presupposition of absolute truth), their defense is wrong but yours is right.
How does Muslim theory prove or disprove Christian theory?
Is this a straw man?
What is your proof that Christians & Muslims defend the books in the same way?
What is your proof that the defense is exactly the same with no variance?
If they were the same, how would that disprove the Bible?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#42
Do you understand why this doesn't further conversation? This is a childish game, and I'm not going to play it. Come back to the adult table when you're ready to act like one.
What is your proof that it is childish to demand proof for an assertion?
 
Aug 5, 2013
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#43
My "like" buttons appear to have returned. :)

It would appear that you agree with "Gill's Exposition", and also agree with TheWanderer's argument of a transcription error. I'm going to assume that you probably believe the bible to be true, but wondering how you can do so when knowing that there are transcription errors. Maybe they don't bother you -- you sounded undisturbed by the idea. I might even guess that you're not a fundamentalist, which would make you a much better debate opponent than most.

So why transcription errors? If the bible is "God-breathed", the one and only source for numerous stories about God, then why would God allow mistakes in transcription (and worse, allow them to become canonized)?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#44
Epistemology 101 First Post on it

The skeptic may show up making all kinds of assertions.
Thus it is useful to ask him to prove them.
After it becomes evident to himself that he really has no proof of anything,
he may be ready for some truth.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#45
My "like" buttons appear to have returned. :)

I'm going to assume that you probably believe the bible to be true, but wondering how you can do so when knowing that there are transcription errors.
How is it inconsistent to believe that the Bible is true and that copies of it have transcription errors?

I might even guess that you're not a fundamentalist, which would make you a much better debate opponent than most.
How do you know that disbelief of the basic tenants of Christianity make an opponent better?

So why transcription errors? If the bible is "God-breathed", the one and only source for numerous stories about God, then why would God allow mistakes in transcription (and worse, allow them to become canonized)?
What leads you to suppose that transcription errors in copies is inconsistent with the Bible being "God-breathed"?

Is the question "Why would God" valid? If so, what is your proof of that?
What is the necessity of figuring out why would God?
How do you know that copyist errors were canonized?
How do you know that the concept of canon is valid?
Is that consistent with "My sheep hear my voice"?
What would lead one to suppose that it waited for the 4th century AD for men to feel that they must recognize the apostles' writings as authorities to obey? Did the Corinthians say, "Put Paul's instructions on the shelf & thumb the nose at them until a few centuries have gone by & old boys in beards & robes approve?

Do you really have any proof at all for what you believe or is it all assumption?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#46
One still waits for Starcrash to give proof:

How do you know that?

How do you know that
1) Synonyms do not differ in meaning?
2) Synonyms imply original language only for understanding?
3) Understanding is a binary matter -- you either do or don't?
4) Original language is not a matter of increasing understanding?
5) Why isn't there is a valid question?
6) speculations about ease of writing implies necessity?
7) that the question isn't this, but something else?
8) it is valid to speak of what God the Son is allowed to do?
9) one must wonder?
10) fixing the problem was the issue?
11) the Gospel of John should rehash the synoptics?
12) there is a problem?
13) recording a 2nd cleansing implies the author is wrong?
14) Matthew 21 gives a different day from Mark 11?
15) three times is impossible?

What is your proof for your allegations?
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#47
I want to take a look at 2 Samuel 21 - last verse first . . . .

22) These four were born to the giant in Gath and felled by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. Goliath was the giant in Gath - 1 Samuel 17:4

1 son - v16) And Isbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, . . . v17) Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him.

2nd son - v18) And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Saph, which was of the sons of the giant.

3rd son - v19) And there was again a battle in Gob . . . where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, . . . .

4th son - v20,21 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant. And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the brother of David slew him.

Back to the last verse - 22) These four were born to the giant in Gath . . . .

So our apparent problem would be verse 19 - slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite also 1 Chronicles 20:5 . . . Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gitite . . . . Notice again after listing these giants in 1 Chronicles 20 - v8) these were born unto the giant in Gath . . . . We need to look at the definition of 'brother' and see if that helps - 1. brother A) brother of same parents B) half brother C) relative, kinship, same tribe D) each to the other (reciprocal relationship) E. (fig.,) of resemblance. (sorry I did not put the Hebrew word for "brother".) We know that these were born to Goliath of Gath so the definition would be relative, kinship, same tribe and doesn't necessarily mean "brother" as we think of brother.

No contradiction.
 
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Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
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#48
My purpose here is to make you doubt the accuracy of the bible.
So there we have it folks, another atheist trying to cure us of our delusion.

Problem is Starcrash, is that we know there are a few copyist errors, but the vast number of different versions of the text are all 99% in agreement and the important message of the texts is all the same when it comes to speak about how Jesus is Son of God and how we are all going to perish if we do not accept Jesus as our saviour.

I made that commitment, I have relationship with Holy Spirit and Jesus, they are real, so you can try all you like to tell me that they do not exist, but that would be like trying to convince someone that their friend does not exist and is not real because an auto-biography of their life contains contradictions and mistakes!

This is the crux of being a born again Christian, RELATIONSHIP!!! people do not even need to read the Bible to accept Jesus as their saviour, many people come to know and accept Christ without even looking at the Bible, therefore the assumption of atheists they can cure us of this delusion by proving the Bible contains errors, therefore the whole message of God and the life of Jesus could also be errors, is invalid.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#49
Upon reading the title to this thread, I'm sure you planned to walk right in and write "David", knowing that's the obvious answer. After all, even non-Christians know the story of David & Goliath found in 1 Samuel 17.

But did you know that the death of Goliath is briefly recapped in 2 Samuel? Chapter 21, verse 19 and reads as follows (NIV):



This passage may confuse you. "It's talking about the brother of Goliath," you say. "Not Goliath". No, it's not. If you check out the link above (or read the subscript that is undoubtedly in your own bible) you'll see that the Hebrew verse doesn't contain "the brother of"... those words were added because of the obvious contradiction between this story and the one we all know about David being Goliath's killer. Note further this list from Biblehub of the various versions, some which include this fabrication and some which faithfully transmit the original Hebrew.

There's a discussion of this verse below that list (as there usually is of every verse). The "Pulpit Commentary" sticks with the original Hebrew and suggests that "Elhanan" must be a nickname for David and "Jair" is a nickname for his father, Jesse. This isn't because either of them is known by those nicknames, but because the writer of the commentary here is incredulous that such un-famous people could be the famous killers of Goliath. This is followed by "Gill's exposition" which claims that the fabricators were correct in assuming that it was Goliath's brother rather than Goliath himself because he notes that there are further contradictions in who the famous father of Elhanan was (Dodo, not Jair) and Goliath's death in the valley of Elah, not Gob.

As an atheist, I find this to be the common way that apologists deal with contradictions -- they don't even consider the possible alternative that the bible contains contradictions, even when the KJV translators deliberately mistranslated the bible and we know for a fact that they did. They were mistranslating to avoid a non-contradiction? That sounds silly, but I'd like to know what you think. Even if the bible isn't contradictory, these two commentaries can't both be right. Which one is right (if even one of them is)?
In the Bible you will not get every little detail answered, you will find room to doubt But, you will find enough evidence on which to base your faith. Otherwise we do not need faith. To give an example there are not little green men on the moon eating cheese, even though you have never been to the moon to see for yourself there is evidence to suggest otherwise. The same with the Bible, there is enough evidence to base our faith.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#50
I have read through this blog, and the one thing I find interesting is how nobody has mentioned the obvious.

I would like to start off with saying, thanks be to God for letting the dead sea scrolls to be found.
We as Christians know that their are translation errors in the KJV from the original texts do to the conditions the texts were in.
The finding and studying of the dead sea scrolls, and comparing it to the KJV a lot of Christians use today has come to determine those minor errors and correct them, which is how we get the inserts now on what the text was really saying.
The dead sea scrolls from the last time I checked into the study placed the KJV at 95 % correct, just a few translation errors that are being corrected.

The translation errors do not change the fact of God, and how we need the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is funny how atheist or those who believe in scientific theories always want to point out minor flaws in the bible, but do not want to face or realize the flaws in their own theories and base them as facts.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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#51
I assume this is addressed to me.

It would appear that you agree with "Gill's Exposition", and also agree with TheWanderer's argument of a transcription error. I'm going to assume that you probably believe the bible to be true,
That is correct.

but wondering how you can do so when knowing that there are transcription errors. Maybe they don't bother you -- you sounded undisturbed by the idea. I might even guess that you're not a fundamentalist, which would make you a much better debate opponent than most.
I would classify myself as an evangelical, though I do get the fundie label from time to time. People are lazy like that.

I'm just not sure why I should be disturbed by the idea that there are (and indeed, there really are) errors in the transcription process. Patently, there are, or we would not have manuscripts that say different things (acknowledging for the moment that the VAST majority of differences are things that can't even be rendered in English, and even more aren't viable as original readings after critical analysis).

So why transcription errors? If the bible is "God-breathed", the one and only source for numerous stories about God, then why would God allow mistakes in transcription (and worse, allow them to become canonized)?
It's really the same question as "why doesn't God stop people doing evil things?" or "why does God allow life to be a thing if he knows everything we will ever do?" In other words, although there is a pragmatic/text critical response to your question, there is also a theological/philosophical one.

What would it mean for God to do as you say, and make it impossible for their to be errors in any copy of the text? Well, it would make it easier to do text critical work, that's for sure :p But it would also remove agency and responsibility on part of the church. It would remove the need for care and study of the Word. It would unfairly protect the church from evil both within and without. It would require him most likely to make magic autographs that would last forever, which, if nothing else, is practically begging for unsightly relic worship (bad enough with stuff that is not demonstrably a 'miraculous relic' - like Mary toast!)

There are a whole host of theoretical reasons, none of which I can, of course, prove, but all of which are possibilities, depending on your presupposition about what sort of God it is that God should be. This is a fairly short answer on this point, but it is short for precisely that reason - it is largely an argument about suppositions, it is not one based on actual concepts that the Bible sets forth about God, and is also not one that actually looks to make sense of the other data available. It's rhetoric, albeit one I'm happy to engage more in if you prefer. I'd just rather get onto the second point:

The reality is that the problem is not nearly as big as you make out. First of all, it is EXCEEDINGLY easy, particularly today, to see where there are mistakes. The textual basis for criticism is HUGE, over 5000 different MSS in the case of the New Testament, for instance, which is way in excess of any other historical document. The actual amount of variety among these documents is relatively small compared to where the texts agree (albeit more so in the NT MSS than the OT), and the vast majority of variants are, again, either not translatable, or are not viable. Those that have an impact on the text are usually quite minor (for instance, the significance to the biblical revelation of who killed Goliath is, at the end of the day, not critical, and that's one of the more major ones!), and in almost all of these cases it is quite straightforward to work out where the changes are and how they arose, and to discern the correct readings from among the texts (as I hopefully demonstrated earlier in this thread). Indeed, given the wealth of material in the MSS (not to mention quotations and citations in other extant secondary materials), it's hard to imagine that the original texts are not in there somewhere.

It's striking that in practically every case, it is only minor details or events that demonstrate key variants, but all the major things, such as, say, the death and resurrection of Christ, do not suddenly disappear in a deluge of textual corruption. Arguably the two most significant alternations in the whole of the Bible, Long Mark and the Johannine Comma in 1 John 5:7, add SUPPORT to certain pre-existing doctrines (and in the case of Long Mark, add new ones), but their absence does not make those doctrines disappear. Unless you are into the snake handling thing (which really only became a thing last century).

The whole point of textual criticism is to not assume anything has become 'canonized' by virtue of being in an MSS. It is to go to, or as close as possible to, the original readings, which is where, if anywhere (I assume you don't believe this), the inspiration of Scripture happened.

Of course some Christians don't believe this, and argue, for instance, that the KJV or some other manuscript or translation has special revelation. But I think that's that's intellectually specious, and biblically has no support. Which is probably the last thing I would leave you with - just because some Christians may have a problem with admitting errors in transmissional history does not mean all, or even most, would. Heck, I can go all the way back to Irenaeus in the second century, who spent a large amount of his time having to argue with people about what the correct MSS were. He didn't throw out the inspiration baby with the transmissional infallibility bathwater. I don't see why we should start now nearly 2000 years later.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#52
Do you ever just pause at a thread title, and go, "Huh?" As a small child in Sunday school, I remember David killed Goliath with a sling stone. My entire life, the painfully plain 1 Samuel 17 account has held up, this to me and all the theologians I've heard comment on the death of Goliath. Now, the exact percentage of God's work guiding the sling stone could be debated, I suppose, so why not a thread name, "Was David really the cat's meow with a sling?" This way, we could have 200+ pages of the unknowable bickered, but which doesn't question what the Bible clearly accounts of David and Goliath. I look to next see "Strange Death in Elah Valley" on 48 Hours Mysteries. Or maybe that should be Cold Case Files. Theology, in the age of YouTube...
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#53
Upon reading the title to this thread, I'm sure you planned to walk right in and write "David", knowing that's the obvious answer. After all, even non-Christians know the story of David & Goliath found in 1 Samuel 17.

But did you know that the death of Goliath is briefly recapped in 2 Samuel? Chapter 21, verse 19 and reads as follows (NIV):



This passage may confuse you. "It's talking about the brother of Goliath," you say. "Not Goliath". No, it's not. If you check out the link above (or read the subscript that is undoubtedly in your own bible) you'll see that the Hebrew verse doesn't contain "the brother of"... those words were added because of the obvious contradiction between this story and the one we all know about David being Goliath's killer. Note further this list from Biblehub of the various versions, some which include this fabrication and some which faithfully transmit the original Hebrew.

There's a discussion of this verse below that list (as there usually is of every verse). The "Pulpit Commentary" sticks with the original Hebrew and suggests that "Elhanan" must be a nickname for David and "Jair" is a nickname for his father, Jesse. This isn't because either of them is known by those nicknames, but because the writer of the commentary here is incredulous that such un-famous people could be the famous killers of Goliath. This is followed by "Gill's exposition" which claims that the fabricators were correct in assuming that it was Goliath's brother rather than Goliath himself because he notes that there are further contradictions in who the famous father of Elhanan was (Dodo, not Jair) and Goliath's death in the valley of Elah, not Gob.

As an atheist, I find this to be the common way that apologists deal with contradictions -- they don't even consider the possible alternative that the bible contains contradictions, even when the KJV translators deliberately mistranslated the bible and we know for a fact that they did. They were mistranslating to avoid a non-contradiction? That sounds silly, but I'd like to know what you think. Even if the bible isn't contradictory, these two commentaries can't both be right. Which one is right (if even one of them is)?
Here is the footnote from the bible I use:
The Hebrew text as it stands reads, “Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite.” Who killed Goliath the Gittite? According to 1 Sam 17:4-58 it was David who killed Goliath, but according to the MT of 2 Sam 21:19 it was Elhanan who killed him. Many scholars believe that the two passages are hopelessly at variance with one another. Others have proposed various solutions to the difficulty, such as identifying David with Elhanan or positing the existence of two Goliaths. But in all likelihood the problem is the result of difficulties in the textual transmission of the Samuel passage; in fact, from a text-critical point of view the books of Samuel are the most poorly preserved of all the books of the Hebrew Bible. The parallel passage in 1 Chr 20:5 reads, “Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath.” Both versions are textually corrupt. The Chronicles text has misread “Bethlehemite” (בֵּית הַלַּחְמִי, bet hallakhmi) as the accusative sign followed by a proper name אֶת לַחְמִי (’et lakhmi). (See the note at 1 Chr 20:5.) The Samuel text misread the word for “brother” (אַח, ’akh) as the accusative sign (אֵת, ’et), thereby giving the impression that Elhanan, not David, killed Goliath. Thus in all probability the original text read, “Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath.”

This is why some think it originally read "the brother of Goliath."

Personally, while this might be a possible solution and so not out of the question, I don't think there is any evidence for it. Both the MT and LXX of 2 Sam 21 say it was Elhanan that killed Goliath. So you have two passages disagreeing over who killed Goliath; one saying it was David the other saying it was Elhanan. The differences in the text are probably explained by the stories originating from two different sources/traditions - one where David killed Goliath and another where David's personal militia killed Goliath (Elhanan was a member of David's militia).

There are other issues here too making this more difficult. In 1 Sam 16, David enters into Saul's royal court as a harp player and the king's personal armor bearer. Yet in 1 Sam 17, when the Israelites line up for battle, the king's personal armor bearer is not present. Not only is he not present, but he's back home tending to sheep as if he were never in Saul's court to begin with. David only goes to the battle lines to feed his brothers, though he should be worrying about carrying Saul's armor. When he finally meets Saul in ch 17, the text reads as if Saul is meeting him for the first time, though supposedly David is his personal armor bearer and harp player. How does Saul not recognize him? In ch 16, David is described as a brave handsome warrior, yet in ch 17 he is described as "just a boy" in contrast to Goliath who was a warrior from youth. Further, ch 18 seems to pick up where ch 16 left off - David is in Saul's court as armor bearer and becomes Jonathan's friend.

There are textual issues as well. The LXX is different from the MT as it is missing 39 out of 88 verses in 1 Sam 16-18. See Emanuel Tov's discussion: http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/papers/23.1 Sam17.1999.pdf

The issue is probably resolved by recognizing that there were different traditions/sources recalling who killed Goliath. One pins it on David the other pins it on David's militia. The writer of Chronicles, writing much later towards the very end of the exile while 1-2 Sam is written much earlier, tries to resolve the difference in his retelling of Israel's history by saying that David's militia killed the brother of Goliath, while David himself killed Goliath.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#54
Epistemology 101 2nd Post on it

Muslims claim the same thing when you try to show them that the Qur'an is in error.
What is your proof that the Muslims claim the same thing? Prove or retract.

What is your proof that a comparison with Muslims is anything but a straw man? If the Muslims believe X, what does that prove about Christianity?

Epistemology 101:
Where is your answer to the question as to how you know that the Law of Non-Contradiction is valid (which you gave as the grounds for an argument you made)? Can you prove this or do you retract?


Or do you think you will believed just because you say it?

Do you see your errors below?

1. Out of a hard heart, one denies the obvious.
2. One refuses to acknowledge the existence and propriety of figures of speech.
3. One fails to interpret a difficult passage by other passages (on the same subject) that are clear.
4. One ignores the legitimacy of God’s using humans with their human vocabulary.
5. One takes a directive given to a specific person or people (in some historic culture) and insists (a) that the directive was meant to be applied to everyone everywhere for all time, or
(b ) that the directive was meant as God’s ideal course of action.

6. One insists that regulations limiting man's sinful conduct in the Mosaic Law express God's ideal course of conduct, as in "Love your neighbor as yourself."
7. One insists that a passage must speak comprehensively on a subject although the passage is only giving a partial revelation.
8. One claims that a rounded number is an untrue number.
9. One fails to realize that general statements may have exceptions.
10. One demands that an allusion by the New Testament to the Old Testament, must be a verbatim quote or an exact word-for-word translation.

11. One maintains that because something has not been explained, there can be no explanation.
12. One assumes that if some other ancient source disagrees with the Bible, the Bible is wrong.
13. One insists that because 2 accounts of the same event differ, one or both must be wrong, instead of complementary witnesses.
14. One takes scripture out of context.
15. One refuses to accept that the Word of God could have minor copying errors in the multitude of manuscripts, or one insists that the existence of minor copying errors invalidates our knowledge of God’s word.

16. One alleges that a multiplicity of translations indicates that the text has no integrity.
17. One assumes that what a majority of scientists teach must be correct if it disagrees with the Bible.
18. One jumps to an unnecessary interpretation of an obscure passage.
19. One refuses to validate the use of common language and insists that the text should use technical precision.
20. One insists that if the Bible is not politically correct, the Bible must be wrong.

21. One maintains that a Bible passage is in error because one does not know any proof that the Bible is right. (One finds that the Bible is guilty because one cannot prove it innocent.)
22. When 2 passages could be interpreted either as harmonizing or as in conflict, one insists that the conflicting interpretation is correct.
23. One expects that human understanding of a passage must be the same thing as what an infinitely intelligent God meant when He revealed truth.
24. One maintains that when scripture records a behavior, therefore the scripture approves of that behavior.
25. One dogmatically advocates opinions contrary to the Bible, although one has no source of ultimate truth with which to support those opinions.

26. One believes that a behavior contrary to the Bible, must be acceptable if one wants to do it.
27. One insists that God must be the way one wants Him to be.
28. One confuses a statement about what SHALL be with a statement about what SHOULD be (confounding prophecy with commandment), as if a statement predicting the death of 1,000 babies, were the same as a commandment to kill 1,000 babies.
29. One imagines that one should tell the Lord how He ought to have written His book and govern the universe.
30. One cynically lies about what the Bible says.

31. One plays the Paul vs. Jesus game & claims that Paul changed Christ's teaching, though one has not carefully compared.
32. One twists the meaning of one passage of scripture to make it seem to contradict another.
33. When two interpretations of a passage are possible, one insists on an unnecessary interpretation to try to make it contradictory to another passage.
34. One insists that ungodly interpreters are correct and the Bible is thus wrong.
35. One insists that the majority of scientists who advocate some theory must be correct vs. a minority who disagree.

36. One insists that the majority of historians must be correct vs. a minority who agree with the Bible.
37. One pretends that one has a higher standard by which one could judge God or His Word.
38. One arrogantly presumes to judge God, forgetting that God is one's judge.
39. One assumes that the "Sayings of Jesus" are superior to the rest of God's Word.
40. One exalts human tradition or demonic document over God's Word.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#55
Who Killed Goliath?

Shall we rename this thread:

Who shot Cock Robin?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#56
Is the Term "Fundamentalist" a Straw Man in This Thread?

People use words differently.

This is my take on "fundamentalist" "fundamentalism" (IMHO):

Around the time after World War I, there was a growing & widespread denial of basic doctrines of Christianity. Like the Greeks who might debate if a boat were the same boat after all the pieces of wood in it had been replaced over 300 years of rot & repair, was it the same boat, and if not, when did it stop being the same boat,
similarly the idea occurred that while much disagreement on doctrine was certainly permissible (no 2 Christians ever agreeing on everything (that would be cult), there were some basic doctrines that one must believe to be classified as "Christian."

There was no limit to the denial. Modernist could claim that they believed Jesus to be the Son of God, but we are all sons of God. Christ's deity was denied, the Bible denied, virgin birth denied. If a book were said to be written by Paul, why that book might be 4 separate books later edited & none by Paul! Someone might wish to deny not only the Trinity, but that God existed, yet wish to continue on some denominational payroll.

Thus the idea of fundamentals arose: That is the idea (classically) that there are certain basics which one may not deny and still be called a Christian. A rather short list was drawn up.

Now over time, our beloved media in contempt for those who believe the fundamentals, started using the term for fanatics. Is it fanaticism to believe in the Trinity? Then when the Islamists got going, our media put the name "fundamentalist" on Arab bombers and terrorists, which is an attempt to demonize basic Christianity by using the term fundamentalist for such terrorists. I believe that our main line media has now stopped doing this in newscasts. The Islamist head choppers, so far as I know, have never called themselves "fundamentalists." And the term fundamentalist has become established as a slur word. Thus I object to its use by those who deny basic Christian teaching for those who in fact believe the basics truths of Christianity -- because it has become a slur word attempting to attach fanaticism to believers in basic Christianity.

For me the term fundamentalist should mean a person who holds to the basic truths, but allows much variation in other areas of doctrine.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#57
[h=2]Re: Who Killed Goliath?[/h]
My Bible is in another room. Colonel Mustard in the pantry?
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
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#58
Here is the footnote from the bible I use:
The Hebrew text as it stands reads, “Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite.” Who killed Goliath the Gittite? According to 1 Sam 17:4-58 it was David who killed Goliath, but according to the MT of 2 Sam 21:19 it was Elhanan who killed him. Many scholars believe that the two passages are hopelessly at variance with one another. Others have proposed various solutions to the difficulty, such as identifying David with Elhanan or positing the existence of two Goliaths. But in all likelihood the problem is the result of difficulties in the textual transmission of the Samuel passage; in fact, from a text-critical point of view the books of Samuel are the most poorly preserved of all the books of the Hebrew Bible. The parallel passage in 1 Chr 20:5 reads, “Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath.” Both versions are textually corrupt. The Chronicles text has misread “Bethlehemite” (בֵּית הַלַּחְמִי, bet hallakhmi) as the accusative sign followed by a proper name אֶת לַחְמִי (’et lakhmi). (See the note at 1 Chr 20:5.) The Samuel text misread the word for “brother” (אַח, ’akh) as the accusative sign (אֵת, ’et), thereby giving the impression that Elhanan, not David, killed Goliath. Thus in all probability the original text read, “Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath.”

This is why some think it originally read "the brother of Goliath."

Personally, while this might be a possible solution and so not out of the question, I don't think there is any evidence for it. Both the MT and LXX of 2 Sam 21 say it was Elhanan that killed Goliath. So you have two passages disagreeing over who killed Goliath; one saying it was David the other saying it was Elhanan. The differences in the text are probably explained by the stories originating from two different sources/traditions - one where David killed Goliath and another where David's personal militia killed Goliath (Elhanan was a member of David's militia).

There are other issues here too making this more difficult. In 1 Sam 16, David enters into Saul's royal court as a harp player and the king's personal armor bearer. Yet in 1 Sam 17, when the Israelites line up for battle, the king's personal armor bearer is not present. Not only is he not present, but he's back home tending to sheep as if he were never in Saul's court to begin with. David only goes to the battle lines to feed his brothers, though he should be worrying about carrying Saul's armor. When he finally meets Saul in ch 17, the text reads as if Saul is meeting him for the first time, though supposedly David is his personal armor bearer and harp player. How does Saul not recognize him? In ch 16, David is described as a brave handsome warrior, yet in ch 17 he is described as "just a boy" in contrast to Goliath who was a warrior from youth. Further, ch 18 seems to pick up where ch 16 left off - David is in Saul's court as armor bearer and becomes Jonathan's friend.

There are textual issues as well. The LXX is different from the MT as it is missing 39 out of 88 verses in 1 Sam 16-18. See Emanuel Tov's discussion: http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/papers/23.1 Sam17.1999.pdf

The issue is probably resolved by recognizing that there were different traditions/sources recalling who killed Goliath. One pins it on David the other pins it on David's militia. The writer of Chronicles, writing much later towards the very end of the exile while 1-2 Sam is written much earlier, tries to resolve the difference in his retelling of Israel's history by saying that David's militia killed the brother of Goliath, while David himself killed Goliath.
If carefully read these records are not just about killing Goliath but his offspring also: 2 Samuel 21:22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. Goliath fell by the hand of David and the offspring by the hand of his servants.
1 Chronicles 20:8 These were born unto the giant in Gath; and they fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. It is in the Hebrew understanding of "brother" as I posted in #47.

About the other things - don't have a clue - haven't studied them. :)
 
F

FireHeart

Guest
#59
You've got it -- it doesn't make it right!!! They can assert the authority of their scriptures as much as they want, but that doesn't make them true. How does one know whether a book is true? One must have a method, and it can't involve simply assuming it (otherwise we'd both have to agree that the Muslims are right).

I'm not trying to prove "only [my] own view and opinion". I source my claims and try to argue that you'd agree with me if not for the bias. I keep bringing up Muslims to show that, if we were using your arguments to defend someone that neither of us wants to defend, you'd easily see through those arguments and find them false. I'm trying to put you in my shoes so that you'll stop using poor defenses that you yourself would not accept.

I have "studied bible prophecy and the predictions the bible made", and found them to be unconvincing for a variety of good reasons. Again, one only needs to look at the Muslim claim that prophecy in the Qur'an makes it true to see why one could make this claim about a book that isn't true.

My purpose here is to make you doubt the accuracy of the bible. I believe that the only reason you think the bible is perfect is because you're ignorant of the contradictions (perhaps even willfully ignorant), and because you don't even question whether it could possibly be imperfect. How can you know if you won't even consider the possibility? If the bible actually is true, as you claim it is, it should stand up to scrutiny. In fact, scrutiny ought to be welcome because it would give the bible a chance to shine... assuming it stands up to it.
I understand that thinking in another persons shoes is important for understanding and proving our beliefs and thinking. But you say you have studied bible prophecy? Are you sure you dug deep enough? It was prophesied that in the last days which truly began when Israel became a state that ppl would dream dreams and receive visions, ppl did occasionally but it wasnt until these past 70 years that many ppl reported recieving dreams and visions and even muslums claimed to have met Jesus in a vision and converted to Christianity. You also have how the bible said in the last days there would be massive earthquakes in diverse places, and now we have earthquakes happening daily on record scales and just as the bible predicted we have water turning blood red we have literally thousands of fish and birds dropping dead covering beaches and lands for unknown reasons like the book of Hosea predicted.and these are just the prophesies that are recently began a few years ago and all this was predicted to happen before Christs return.

You want me to doubt the accuracy of the bible? How can I when so much of it pinpointed what would happen and when then I see it happen with my own eyes?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#60
'goliath' is actually a title or a nickname...it is a hebrew word meaning 'exile' and it refers to the fact that the remnant of the anakite giants driven out by joshua and caleb lived in exile in philistia...

so both the giant killed by david and the giant killed by elhanan were 'goliath'...that is both were anakite exiles...

in the case of the second goliath the bible gives us more information...it tells us that his real name was lahmi and that he was a brother of the goliath killed by david...