Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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Actually if you agreed totally you would not immediately attempt to restructure what I said. I read Isaiah 53 and I know what God said Messiah would endure for me. Self-sacrificial love is an attempt to avoid the matter of the blood Christ shed for me. It is not pleasant to consider that a great price of suffering was exacted upon the flesh and blood of Christ. His blood is what the law demanded and His blood is what made the atonement.
Christ indeed was separated from His Father when Christ became sin for us. It was necessary that Christ might redeem us. The vale of the temple was rent, the earth quaked and the heavens were darkened but God was satisfied with the chastisement of our peace upon Christ. You still will not face the awful truth of what sin cost Christ.
Nice romantic notion but I do not think you grasp what is involved here. There is nothing nice in a Roman crucifixion. The crucifixion of Christ was very brutal. Again Isaiah says His visage was marred more than any mans.
There was no cooperation in Christ's suffering.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Christ indeed was separated from His Father when Christ became sin for us. It was necessary that Christ might redeem us. The vale of the temple was rent, the earth quaked and the heavens were darkened but God was satisfied with the chastisement of our peace upon Christ. You still will not face the awful truth of what sin cost Christ.
Nice romantic notion but I do not think you grasp what is involved here. There is nothing nice in a Roman crucifixion. The crucifixion of Christ was very brutal. Again Isaiah says His visage was marred more than any mans.
There was no cooperation in Christ's suffering.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Explain that? How does Christ who is God become separated from the Father who is God? You are mixing theologies here. In fact, you mixing theologies that are diametrically opposed. If the Father and the Son are indeed the same God whom we worship, then His wrath could not be upon Himself for doing His own will. In essence, you are arguing that God has a multiple personality complex where one is blind to the other.
First, this is an ignorant response to one who said he cries when he thinks of the Passion of our Lord. We cry because of the brutality that was done to our precious and loving God. Second, remember Christ said some would suffer worse than He did. So, its not a romantic notion to weep for our Lord. Would you have looked upon the women weeping and crying out at the foot of the Cross to stop their "romantic notions", because Jesus was suffering up there?
First, this is an ignorant response to one who said he cries when he thinks of the Passion of our Lord. We cry because of the brutality that was done to our precious and loving God. Second, remember Christ said some would suffer worse than He did. So, its not a romantic notion to weep for our Lord. Would you have looked upon the women weeping and crying out at the foot of the Cross to stop their "romantic notions", because Jesus was suffering up there?
Because God is God He is able to remove our sins as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more. For a moment God turned His back on Christ when He made Christ to be sin for us. He accomplished this by the same determinate will that allowed Him to become a man in the first place. For the one time in eternity Christ tasted what it was like to be separated from the Father because of sin. A price far greater than all the physical sufferings of the cross. A grave warning to all who refuse to be saved by Gods grace for they will experience that separation for all of eternity in the lake of fire.
Baloney! You give lip service only. You refuse to accept the finished work of Christ. Ritual weeping is of no value. Ritual is not a substitute for reason. False piety is disgusting.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Baloney! You give lip service only. You refuse to accept the finished work of Christ. Ritual weeping is of no value. Ritual is not a substitute for reason. False piety is disgusting.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You call us ritualists immediately after describing a blind Father who cannot see His own Son because of sin, as if sin is powerful to blind the ALL KNOWING ALL SEEING EVER PRESENT ETERNAL GOD!
Roger, you've allowed for too long your false piety to blind you to brethren who would have welcomed you with open arms. I have seen you praise a non-Catholic for this so called false piety, speaking about loving Jesus, and the moment a Catholic says the same thing, you quote them and slander them without impunity as if you are God's gift to humanity. I'm honestly just sick of this. You claim authority to understand Scripture better than the rest of us by constantly saying we interpret everything wrong and then tell us YOUR interpretation. Your often condescending for no reason, insulting at the drop of a hat, and you attack honest emotion as "romantic notions" or ritualistic weeping. Honestly man, I don't know who hurt you, but let it go, because all you have done is attack us constantly. AND the very moment a single non-Catholic stepped forward to say ONE THING that she believed that Catholics were using the right vocabulary, but for the wrong reason, you attacked her. You were immediately snide and superior. You rarely argue from fact, and you have that ridiculous signature that has become to me more like the "Cause of Christ"* claimed by the Templars at Antioch than any Christian brother I've ever known.
For once, just once STOP FOR ONE MINUTE and honestly think about how you come across with your constant snapping and cynicism. There have been healing moments on this site that those like yourself have ignored to continue the argument. I've seen Christian brothers actually set aside this argument for an entire day, and now for an entire week, except you. JUST you and John117 have continued the whole week. Doesn't that tell you something?
*When the Knights Templar took Antioch, they collected all the Jews of the city, placed them in a synagogue and burnt down the synagogue, and marched around the burning building singing "Fairest Lord Jesus" until the building was burnt and the inhabitants dead.
Roger, you've allowed for too long your false piety to blind you to brethren who would have welcomed you with open arms. I have seen you praise a non-Catholic for this so called false piety, speaking about loving Jesus, and the moment a Catholic says the same thing, you quote them and slander them without impunity as if you are God's gift to humanity. I'm honestly just sick of this. You claim authority to understand Scripture better than the rest of us by constantly saying we interpret everything wrong and then tell us YOUR interpretation. Your often condescending for no reason, insulting at the drop of a hat, and you attack honest emotion as "romantic notions" or ritualistic weeping. Honestly man, I don't know who hurt you, but let it go, because all you have done is attack us constantly. AND the very moment a single non-Catholic stepped forward to say ONE THING that she believed that Catholics were using the right vocabulary, but for the wrong reason, you attacked her. You were immediately snide and superior. You rarely argue from fact, and you have that ridiculous signature that has become to me more like the "Cause of Christ"* claimed by the Templars at Antioch than any Christian brother I've ever known.
For once, just once STOP FOR ONE MINUTE and honestly think about how you come across with your constant snapping and cynicism. There have been healing moments on this site that those like yourself have ignored to continue the argument. I've seen Christian brothers actually set aside this argument for an entire day, and now for an entire week, except you. JUST you and John117 have continued the whole week. Doesn't that tell you something?
*When the Knights Templar took Antioch, they collected all the Jews of the city, placed them in a synagogue and burnt down the synagogue, and marched around the burning building singing "Fairest Lord Jesus" until the building was burnt and the inhabitants dead.
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Nope. . .Catholic doctrine teaches three separate persons ("multiple personalities") in the one Godhead,
and it's not a "complex."
God the Son had a sensific human body, will, emotions, affections, etc., whose Spirit was God,
two natures in Christ, who was fully human and fully deity.
The person of God the Father executed his perfect divine justice on the human person of God the Son
for the guilt of his people, saving them from his wrath (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.
Please refresh my memory as to where that is stated in Scripture.
and it's not a "complex."
God the Son had a sensific human body, will, emotions, affections, etc., whose Spirit was God,
two natures in Christ, who was fully human and fully deity.
The person of God the Father executed his perfect divine justice on the human person of God the Son
for the guilt of his people, saving them from his wrath (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.
Please refresh my memory as to where that is stated in Scripture.
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I do not doubt that Jesus was punished for our sins and that the punishment was delivered through God. My point is, it wasn't God's wrath poured out on Jesus. It was God's Justice which Jesus bore. Wrath means anger or at times "blind rage". The Father loved the Son and the Son loved the Father, this was a moment of victory for both. Though I don't believe they smiled through it all as if it were just some joyous moment for the two, it was not a wrathful scene. We see God's wrath with the earthquake and the temple veil, but neither of those are directed at Christ.
Elin, you've argued the point beautifully, and very well. My problem is the word wrath because I believe it leads to a false understanding of the Cross as if Jesus bore God's anger, no he bore God's just punishment.
Elin, you've argued the point beautifully, and very well. My problem is the word wrath because I believe it leads to a false understanding of the Cross as if Jesus bore God's anger, no he bore God's just punishment.
Please describe the nature of this justice.
What did Jesus experience?
What precisely did it mean to "bear our sins in his own body on the tree"?
How does Jesus "save us from God's wrath" (Ro 5:9; 1Th 1:10)?
In NT Greek, orge means anger only. God does not do "blind rage."
The condemned will experience God's wrath
because that is God's punishment on sin (Jn 3:36; Ro 1:18, Eph 2:3, 5:6; Col 3:6).
The saved do not experience God's wrath on their sin because they have been saved from it,
through faith in Jesus who experienced it for them.
Thanks, guy.
So just what do you think God's punishment was--a painful death?
Keeping in mind that all the unsaved do experience God's wrath.
What did Jesus experience?
What precisely did it mean to "bear our sins in his own body on the tree"?
How does Jesus "save us from God's wrath" (Ro 5:9; 1Th 1:10)?
In NT Greek, orge means anger only. God does not do "blind rage."
The condemned will experience God's wrath
because that is God's punishment on sin (Jn 3:36; Ro 1:18, Eph 2:3, 5:6; Col 3:6).
The saved do not experience God's wrath on their sin because they have been saved from it,
through faith in Jesus who experienced it for them.
Thanks, guy.
So just what do you think God's punishment was--a painful death?
Keeping in mind that all the unsaved do experience God's wrath.