Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[TaylorTG]

I know that Roman Catholics do not understand holiness. Objects are not holy. Bones of long dead saints are not holy. You see things of the earth as holy because you are earthly in your vision. To glimpse that which is truly holy you must look to things above the earth.

We are told to be holy as the Lord is holy. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the power may be of God and not of us.

When you cease to look for your own holiness and seek the holiness that is of God you will gain understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You avoided Kelpa's point. Don't debate if you can't answer people's arguments.

 

[kepha]

"the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed"
You would have to be quite biblically iliterate to reject this general principle.

Let's take a look at what the "storage box" contained, then we can look at what was so special about the Ark of the Covenant (just a storage box to you).

Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood—a Jew who knew Jewish Scripture and had eyes to see and ears to hear. One of the things he would have understood is typology.We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ’s revelation.

The idea of typology is not new. Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come—Christ (Rom 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.
Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:

• Peter uses Noah’s ark as a type of Christian baptism (1 Pt 3:18-22).
• Paul explains that circumcision foreshadowed Christian baptism (Col 2:11-12).
• Jesus uses the bronze serpent as a type of his Crucifixion (Jn 3:14; cf. Nm 21:8-9).
• The Passover lamb prefigures the sacrifice of Christ (1 Cor 5:7).
• Paul says that Abraham "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back" (Heb 11:19).

God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets". God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed
1) a golden jar holding the manna,
2) Aaron’s rod that budded,
3) and the stone tablets of the covenant (Heb 9:4).

Were these "types" of Something to come?

I would like to elaborate a bit on this "overshadowing" business.

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex 40:34-35; Nm 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God.

In the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’" Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.
God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). It's not "just a storage box". God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Word in stone in the ark is a type of the Word made Flesh, Jesus
The Rod of Aaron in the ark is a type of Jesus the High Priest.
The manna in a gold bowl in the ark is a type of Jesus, the Bread of Life that came down from heaven.

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary.

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).
David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).
Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

To summarize: David: "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (type of
Elizabeth: "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

But there is another "coincidence".

2 Sam. 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

Luke 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah,

Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea. The parallel is glaring.

Another "coincidence":

2 Sam. 6:16 As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark.

Yet there is another OT type being revealed in Luke.

1 Chron. 13:14 And the ark of God remained with the household of Obed-edom in his house for three months. And the Lord blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that he had.

2 Sam. 6:11 And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Luke 1:56 And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home.

The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.

There is still another one.

 

[notuptome]

You avoided Kelpa's point. Don't debate if you can't answer people's arguments.

What point? That Catholics venerate objects?

Do you understand that only God is holy? Jesus said as much when He said why call ye me good? Luke 18:19

Those who are not saved and have not the Holy Spirit abiding in them cannot understand.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).
David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).
Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

To summarize: David: "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (type of
Elizabeth: "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

But there is another "coincidence".

2 Sam. 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

Luke 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah,

Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea. The parallel is glaring.

Another "coincidence":

2 Sam. 6:16 As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark.

Yet there is another OT type being revealed in Luke.

1 Chron. 13:14 And the ark of God remained with the household of Obed-edom in his house for three months. And the Lord blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that he had.

2 Sam. 6:11 And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Luke 1:56 And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home.

The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.

There is still another one.

It has never been about the box. You look at the "box" and miss the point entirely.

God describes this type perfectly when God said with their lips they do serve me but their heart is far from Me. A great pretense of religion but no personal knowledge or personal possession of the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TaylorTG]

What point? That Catholics venerate objects?

Do you understand that only God is holy? Jesus said as much when He said why call ye me good? Luke 18:19

Those who are not saved and have not the Holy Spirit abiding in them cannot understand.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The point he made concerning the Ark and the man stuck down because of it.

Objects can indeed be blessed by God just as much as objects can be cursed by Satan. Ex: The occult board.


A holy person is someone who is set apart from others by God to fulfill a certain purpose for God. The word 'holy' doesn't have to imply that the person is 100% sinless. There have been many holy humans throughout history, and all of us may be holy in our own way.

You are holy. Since Christ is your savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within you, and so you're holy, consecrated to God.

 

[kepha]

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).
David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).
Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

To summarize: David: "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (type of
Elizabeth: "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

But there is another "coincidence".

2 Sam. 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

Luke 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah,

Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea. The parallel is glaring.

Another "coincidence":

2 Sam. 6:16 As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark.

Yet there is another OT type being revealed in Luke.

1 Chron. 13:14 And the ark of God remained with the household of Obed-edom in his house for three months. And the Lord blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that he had.

2 Sam. 6:11 And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Luke 1:56 And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home.

The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.

There is still another one.

The title of the above statue is "Redeemer in the Womb", not Mary with the Redeemer. It inspires us to see Mary as a real human being, and it brings scripture to a more concrete level, she's not just a name in a book. She is the Ark of the New Covenant and I am almost finished explaining what that means, so bear with me. If you are going to scream about "graven images", see your doctor.

2 Sm 6:12 And it was told King David, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God.” So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing.

1 Kgs 8:9-11 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, [SUP]11 [/SUP]so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.

Lk 1:56; 2:21-22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord.

The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22). hmm...

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Dt 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels:
*In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh.
*In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life.
*In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest.

In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—"gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."

The Ark of the Old Covenant had not been seen for some 600 years, until something amazing happened with the Apostle John on the Island of Patmos, around 95 A.D...

to be continued...

 

[notuptome]

The point he made concerning the Ark and the man stuck down because of it.

Objects can indeed be blessed by God just as much as objects can be cursed by Satan. Ex: The occult board.


A holy person is someone who is set apart from others by God to fulfill a certain purpose for God. The word 'holy' doesn't have to imply that the person is 100% sinless. There have been many holy humans throughout history, and all of us may be holy in our own way.

You are holy. Since Christ is your savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within you, and so you're holy, consecrated to God.

2 Corinthians 4:7 We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God.

Any holiness I have is due to Christ and not of me. I am still in this body of flesh awaiting glorification with Christ. I am still subject to the weaknesses of the flesh and struggle daily with the passions of the flesh that war against the holy nature God has quickened within me.

It is not the box but the God of the box. God said don't touch and those who disobeyed died.

Mary was like the box, she imparted nothing to what was inside her, she was only the vessel. An earthen vessel used of God that the excellency of the power might be of God and God alone.

Focus on Christ and glorify God Who alone is worthy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

to be continued...

Wouldn't it be nice if you thought as highly of Christ as you do Mary?

Your Catholic fairy tales grow tiresome. Tell me what you think of Christ. Catholic superstition is of little merit towards Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Isn't it interesting that it was the Catholic church that reintroduced miracles in the church starting about 317 CE. Touting many miraculous visions and events. One guy claimed to have the preserved arm of John the Baptist. As long as he had it he was quite wealthy. Some one stole it and he wound up a beggar. How many appearances of Mary has the church subscribed to over the centuries?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

Wouldn't it be nice if you thought as highly of Christ as you do Mary?

Your Catholic fairy tales grow tiresome. Tell me what you think of Christ. Catholic superstition is of little merit towards Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When we do speak of Christ you get all angry at us then...so...there's no conversation to be had.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

A former priest of the catholic church exposes the heresy coming from the head of the rcc.

[video=youtube_share;owK8PsaoItk]http://youtu.be/owK8PsaoItk[/video]

Source: Berean Beacon proclaims the Good News of Salvation, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The President and founder is Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic Priest. - Home

Galatians 1: 8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[kepha]

2 Sm 6:12 And it was told King David, “The Lord has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God.” So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing.

1 Kgs 8:9-11 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, [SUP]11 [/SUP]so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.

Lk 1:56; 2:21-22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord.

The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22). hmm...too many parallels to ignore.

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Dt 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels:
*In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh.
*In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life.
*In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest.

In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—"gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."

to be continued...

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries—no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple." At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions—they were added in the 12th century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative. What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven?
[SUP]"And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child" (Rv 12:1-2).
[/SUP]The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rv 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen. But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil)—and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rv 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

καὶ ἠνοίγη ὁ ναὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ὁ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ὤφθη ἡ κιβωτὸς τῆς διαθήκης αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ ναῷ αὐτοῦ: καὶ ἐγένοντο ἀστραπαὶ καὶ φωναὶ καὶ βρονταὶ καὶ σεισμὸς καὶ χάλαζα μεγάλη Καὶ σημεῖον μέγα ὤφθη ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, γυνὴ περιβεβλημένη τὸν ἥλιον, καὶ ἡ σελήνη ὑποκάτω τῶν ποδῶν αὐτῆς, καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς αὐτῆς στέφανος ἀστέρων δώδεκα,

κιβωτὸς: ark

In fact, there are only two verses in the entire Bible where a woman and a serpent appear in the same verse: Gen. 3:15, and Rev. 12:1

And the Ark of the Covenant is NOT just a box.

 

[notuptome]

When we do speak of Christ you get all angry at us then...so...there's no conversation to be had.

Straw man argument. You are not comfortable talking about the risen Christ. I notice that you have never taken Him down from the cross.

Victory over death and the grave was trumpeted when Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Salvation complete and secured in His finished work.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

Straw man argument. You are not comfortable talking about the risen Christ. I notice that you have never taken Him down from the cross.

Victory over death and the grave was trumpeted when Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Salvation complete and secured in His finished work.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And what is it that all the demons of Hell cannot proclaim Roger? CHRIST IS RISEN! HE IS RISEN INDEED! Everyday Mass is said throughout the world and we proclaim with one voice the Mystery of the Faith, "We proclaim your death O Lord, and your resurrection, until you come again." Prior to Vatican II it read, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." You would like to believe that we Catholics do not turn to the risen Christ, but you are wrong.

You see, without Christ's resurrection the Eucharist (which means Thanksgiving) would be meaningless. Our living sacrifice of our lives would be false. As St. Paul wrote, "If He were not risen, then all has been for nothing." While we do meditate on the Passion of Christ every Tuesday and Friday, we also contemplate His resurrection every Wednesday and Sunday.

Christ is risen brother. Remember, "On the third day He rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, from which He shall come to judge the living and the dead."

The Lord be with you always, "even unto the end of the world."

 

[kepha]

And what is it that all the demons of Hell cannot proclaim Roger? CHRIST IS RISEN! HE IS RISEN INDEED! Everyday Mass is said throughout the world and we proclaim with one voice the Mystery of the Faith, "We proclaim your death O Lord, and your resurrection, until you come again." Prior to Vatican II it read, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." You would like to believe that we Catholics do not turn to the risen Christ, but you are wrong.

You see, without Christ's resurrection the Eucharist (which means Thanksgiving) would be meaningless. Our living sacrifice of our lives would be false. As St. Paul wrote, "If He were not risen, then all has been for nothing." While we do meditate on the Passion of Christ every Tuesday and Friday, we also contemplate His resurrection every Wednesday and Sunday.

Christ is risen brother. Remember, "On the third day He rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, from which He shall come to judge the living and the dead."

The Lord be with you always, "even unto the end of the world."

Good point. Sometimes you have to ignore Gary's psychotic attempts to derail the thread.

OVERVIEW

​

1-The Ark in the Old Testament:

During the time of the Hebrew people's wanderings in the desert after the exodus, they carried with them sacred objects which included the sacred tent, the Ark, and various objects used in worship. Among all the sacred apparatuses the Ark was the holiest. (Gary is blind to the scriptural truth) It was the place and sign of God's presence among them. Furthermore, it was the sign of the covenant an ever-present reminder of the special alliance between God and Israel. It also contained the tablets of the command-merits of the Law and some Manna as a reminder of the heavenly food they ate in the desert; these were the very life of the people.

Above the Ark, which was placed in the tent of meeting, was an overshadowing cloud or "shekinah"- a visible manifestation of God's presence, which overshadows and fills the place with God's glory. (Gary says it was "just a box" out of blindness)
In Exodus 40:34,35 we read, "Then the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling." It was always regarded as "the place of the manifestation of the Divine Presence and of God's will to his elect."(Ex.25:22; 30:6; Lev.16:2.) It was so Holy that there were strict prohibitions against touching it (Num.4:15-20,) and many miracles accompanied it (Josh 3,4,6.) (Gary says it was "just a box") It was eventually placed in the Holy of Holies of the temple. But during the time of the Babylonian captivity it was lost. During the time of the Maccabees there was a tradition that it will be found in the future when "God gathers his people again and shows them mercy...." (2 Mac.2:7)

2- Mary, the New Ark in St Luke:
In the infancy narratives concerning Mary, St, Luke employs the same kind of language, imagery, and events which the Old Testament uses concerning the Ark. In Luke 1:35 the Angel Gabriel speaks to Mary at the annunciation- "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; hence the holy offspring to be born will be called Son of God." Notice that the Divine presence both overshadows and fills her so that the fruit of her womb is the Lord, the Holy One, the Son of God who will become manifest.

In the same way, Exodus 40:34,35 speaks of the holy cloud as overshadowing the place of the Ark, encompassing it, and filling it with the Divine presence so that the glory of the Lord becomes manifest.
In St. Luke then, the mother of the Lord begins to be identified with the new and perfect Ark of the Covenant, the living tabernacle of the Divine presence. The sacred Ark which was once lost and prophesied to be found has now reappeared. Mary becomes the living Ark of the Covenant carrying Jesus, the New Law and the New Manna, the heavenly bread, to give life and salvation to all people.

St. Luke further implies that Mary is the Anti-type of the Ark in the narrative of the visitation. Here, like the first two chapters of Luke in general, there is allusion to the hooks of Samuel; in this case it is 2 Samuel 6:2, where the Ark of God is being transferred to Jerusalem by King David. This comparison shows some of the parallel details of both narratives. (from R Laurentine)
2 Samuel 6:2 (David arose and went from Baal- Judah to bring up from there theArkof
God)
Luke 1:3 (Mary arose and went into the hill country to a city of Judah)
2 Samuel 6:9 (how can the Ark of the Lord come to me!)
Luke 1:43 (and why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?)
2 Samuel 6:11 (The Ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom three months.)
Luke 1:56 Mary remained with her (Elizabeth) about three months.

In both episodes the similarities are undeniable. There is a journey through the same hill country of Judah. There is a similar expression made by Elizabeth as by King David (although David's expression is a result of holy fear because of the episode with Uzzah.). There is a manifestation of joy both with Elizabeth when John the Baptist leaped inber womb for joy and with King David and all the people as they danced with shouts of joy before the Ark (2 Sm.6:5,l5.) One should note that the word which Luke uses to express Elizabeth's loud acclamation (anaphonesen) is one which is used specifically for liturgical acclamations (1 Chr.16:45,42.) And especially for those which accompany the transfer of the Ark of Yahweh (I Chr.l5:28, 2 Chr.5:13.)

Futherrnore, the joyous dancing of David corresponds to the six month old Johns leaping with joy in his mother's womb. The Ark blesses the house of Obededom, and no doubt the presence of Mary and the Lord within her blesses the house of Zechiariah as is implied in Elizabeth's acclamation.

The Ark stays in the house of Obededom for three months and Mary remains with Elisabeth about three months. "The last similarity, observes R.Laurentine, could make us suspect that St. Luke is not reporting historical facts (Luke 1:2), but illustrating by way of symbols. The word "about" reassures us in a vivid way his respect for historical data. No doubtl he has rounded off the figure in order to continue the parallel. But he scrupulously warns us with one effective stroke, if he stylizes he does not invent."

Furthermore, the Ark in Samuel is making its way to Jerusalem. The ascent to Jerusalem is an apex in the gospel of Luke. The whole of Jesus' mission culminates with his arrival in Jerusalem. This is anticipated in the infancy gospel with the presentation of Jesus in the Temple. The incident of the visitation represents a stage in the ascent which foreshadows the later stages of Jesus' journey. Jesus ascends to his place, the temple of Jerusalem; Mary, who is carrying him, is the type of the Ark of the covenant. The scriptural evidence is both numerous and undeniable.

The number of clearly converging analogies makes it difficult to attribute only an accidental connection.
We must ask, why did St. Luke find it necessary to mention the kind of details that he has chosen to include if he did not intend to make a connection between Mary and the Ark?
If in two successive narratives, that of the annunciation and the visitation, St Luke echoes the Ark of God, he does so in order to identify a typological convergence: the mother of the Lord is the New Ark of the Covenant and her son is the manifestation of the Divine presence.
What is significant is that St. Luke is clearly implying that there is a close association between Mary and God's manifestation. She is the center and sign through which the Divine favor, promise, and blessing become manifest in Christ for the people of the new covenant.

 

[kepha]

As original sin is propagated by natural generation, and since Christ entered life in a supernatural manner through conception by the Holy Ghost (Mt. 1:18 et seq.; Luke 1:26 et seq.) it follows that He was not subject to the general law of original sin.

The Fathers and the theologians infer Christ’s freedom fro original sin from the Hypostatic Union, which being a most intimate connection with God, excludes the condition of separation from God implied by original sin.

This being the case, Mary’s state vis-a-vis original sin was irrelevant insofar as Jesus Christ was concerned. She didn’t have to necessarily be conceived immaculately, either for His sake or her own, as the Mother of God. Catholics believe that God performed this miracle because it was “fitting” or “appropriate”. Hence, if one reads the dogmatic proclamation of 1854 (Ineffabilis Deus), there is no trace of language about the Immaculate Conception being any kind of necessity in order for Christ to be sinless.

Mary’s being immaculate had more to do with the analogy to Eve. Mary was the second Eve, who said yes to God rather than no. She was restored to the state that an unfallen Eve would have remained in. Hence the fathers had a prominent motif of “second Eve” or “the new Eve.” The immaculate Eve rebelled against God and fell. The immaculate Mary said yes to God at the Annunciation and thus helped bring about the incarnation, leading to Christ’s atonement and redemption: that reversed the curse of the fall.

 

[notuptome]

And what is it that all the demons of Hell cannot proclaim Roger? CHRIST IS RISEN! HE IS RISEN INDEED! Everyday Mass is said throughout the world and we proclaim with one voice the Mystery of the Faith, "We proclaim your death O Lord, and your resurrection, until you come again." Prior to Vatican II it read, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." You would like to believe that we Catholics do not turn to the risen Christ, but you are wrong.

You see, without Christ's resurrection the Eucharist (which means Thanksgiving) would be meaningless. Our living sacrifice of our lives would be false. As St. Paul wrote, "If He were not risen, then all has been for nothing." While we do meditate on the Passion of Christ every Tuesday and Friday, we also contemplate His resurrection every Wednesday and Sunday.

Christ is risen brother. Remember, "On the third day He rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, from which He shall come to judge the living and the dead."

The Lord be with you always, "even unto the end of the world."

Hebrews 9:12-14 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us......How much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The catholic mass is an affront to God because it is an offering over and over again that God has declared a one time offering. It discounts the merits of Christ's blood to that of bulls and goats.

You want me to believe that you celebrate Christ's resurrection but the mass only mocks it. The catholic cross has Christ nailed to it while the Christian cross is empty.

You say the right words but your actions betray an alternate meaning.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

Hebrews 9:12-14 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us......How much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The catholic mass is an affront to God because it is an offering over and over again that God has declared a one time offering. It discounts the merits of Christ's blood to that of bulls and goats.

You want me to believe that you celebrate Christ's resurrection but the mass only mocks it. The catholic cross has Christ nailed to it while the Christian cross is empty.

You say the right words but your actions betray an alternate meaning.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Very well brother. Then it would be best to continue this conversation when we meet as brethren at the banquet table.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark.

THAT is the part of injected heresy. It has no support in scripture. From that point of heresy the RCC adds false doctrine.

 

[ThomistColin]

THAT is the part of injected heresy. It has no support in scripture. From that point of heresy the RCC adds false doctrine.

You do realize that this wasn't considered heresy by any Christian until the 1500s. The ones who did question this were heretics who denied the divinity of Christ.