In context: Romans 4:4-5

Jackson123 · Oct 20, 2014

I don't think work is mandatory it is evident if that man still alive. Do you believe if a man decide to accept Jesus and in the same second die, go to heaven?

Evident and mandatory is 2 different thing.

this article bellow talking about how to identified if the soil acid or alkaline.

We not talking about mandatory here. it is a matter of identification, not mandatory.

If fizzes when you put vinegar than it is alkaline.

If a man produce good fruit, than he have a faith in Jesus, but fruit is not requirement it happen naturally as soon as you have genuine faith in Jesus.

remember no body able to bear fruit/doing good work in His eyes unless he abide in Him.

If good work is requirement/ must exist before save, than no body save.

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Some plants require soil to be acidic or alkaline in order to thrive. While you can buy a pH testing kit, this DIY method gives you an idea of what kind of soil you have, using two ingredients that are probably already in your pantry: vinegar and baking soda.

This "quick and dirty" method won't give you a specific pH reading, but you'll be able to tell if your soil is more alkaline, acidic, or neutral:

Vinegar: Take a sample of dry dirt (about 1/4 cup), mix with distilled water to make a liquid "mud" and then start pouring household vinegar over top. If the mixture fizzes, it's alkaline.

Baking soda: Mix dry dirt and distilled water as above then start sprinkling baking soda over top. If the mixture bubbles, it's acidic.

If neither test produces a reaction, you have fairly neutral soil.

With that newfound knowledge, you can plan your garden appropriately or take steps to amend the soil using Tipnut's recommendation in the link below. (So even if you have alkaline soil, you can give your azaleas the acid soil they crave.)

[h=6]How to Use Tech to Plan and Optimize Your Garden[/h]Planning a garden of any kind isn't an easy task. Plants grow at different rates, they never…Read more

How To Test pH Levels In Soil | Tipnut

newbirth · Oct 20, 2014

Jackson123 said:

you make your own rules for salvation and the kingdom of God...your rule say....if a man decide to accept Jesus and in the same second die, go to heaven?...this is what God rule say.....

John 3:2-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You want to enter God's kingdom simply because you decide to....

Jackson123 · Oct 20, 2014

newbirth said:

you make your own rules for salvation and the kingdom of God...your rule say....if a man decide to accept Jesus and in the same second die, go to heaven?...this is what God rule say.....

John 3:2-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You want to enter God's kingdom simply because you decide to....

Let me ask you question brother.

If a man accept Jesus and die in the same second, do he go to heaven or hell?

newbirth · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

first.....what do you mean by accept Jesus....Do you mean receive and practice his teachings? or do you mean just agree and do nothing?

second.... Jesus said let the dead bury the dead....you are not dead...are you? did you receive and practice the teachings of our Lord...or do you just agree and do nothing?

Third ...if you have that teaching in scripture by all means share...

Jackson123 · Oct 21, 2014

newbirth said:

[h=1]John 3:16King James Version (KJV)[/h]16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1. I mean agree and don't have time, only a split second and die.

2. as for the dead bury the dead, what is mean to you? is that mean you don't care dying man. Let me repeat my question, if this dying man accept Jesus then die in the same second did he go to heaven?

3 I quote the verse above.

Cassian · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

I don't think work is mandatory it is evident if that man still alive. Do you believe if a man decide to accept Jesus and in the same second die, go to heaven?

Evident and mandatory is 2 different thing.

this article bellow talking about how to identified if the soil acid or alkaline.

We not talking about mandatory here. it is a matter of identification, not mandatory.

If fizzes when you put vinegar than it is alkaline.

If a man produce good fruit, than he have a faith in Jesus, but fruit is not requirement it happen naturally as soon as you have genuine faith in Jesus.

remember no body able to bear fruit/doing good work in His eyes unless he abide in Him.

If good work is requirement/ must exist before save, than no body save.

Ads by Google Cheap Non-GMO Food Supply
Shocking video reveals sneaky trick to getting non-gmo food super cheap
www.crisiseducation.com

Some plants require soil to be acidic or alkaline in order to thrive. While you can buy a pH testing kit, this DIY method gives you an idea of what kind of soil you have, using two ingredients that are probably already in your pantry: vinegar and baking soda.
This "quick and dirty" method won't give you a specific pH reading, but you'll be able to tell if your soil is more alkaline, acidic, or neutral:

Vinegar: Take a sample of dry dirt (about 1/4 cup), mix with distilled water to make a liquid "mud" and then start pouring household vinegar over top. If the mixture fizzes, it's alkaline.
Baking soda: Mix dry dirt and distilled water as above then start sprinkling baking soda over top. If the mixture bubbles, it's acidic.
If neither test produces a reaction, you have fairly neutral soil.

With that newfound knowledge, you can plan your garden appropriately or take steps to amend the soil using Tipnut's recommendation in the link below. (So even if you have alkaline soil, you can give your azaleas the acid soil they crave.)

How to Use Tech to Plan and Optimize Your Garden

Planning a garden of any kind isn't an easy task. Plants grow at different rates, they never…Read more

How To Test pH Levels In Soil | Tipnut

If faith is dead without fruit, then the fruit is mandatory in order to make faith valid. There is no other way to state it. If you like the word necessary better than use it.

Secondly, there is no such thing as natural happening in a person because he has faith. It takes effort and focus to be faithful. which is why it is called "working out one's salvation".

newbirth · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

do you believe the Gospel of Christ our Lord and if you do do you follow the teachings? To say you believe but not do what the scripture says means you are a hearer not a doer of the word....

James 1:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

if you bought a ticket for the 10.45 train the train left at 10.45 you came to the station at 10.46...are you on the train simply because you have a ticket....somewhere in the instruction may have stated ...passengers must be seated by 10.40....you need to get all the instructions...

SeaBass · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

I am talking about Eph 2:10 that requires Christians to do good works. God has made it impossible for one to be a Christian yet not do good works.

SeaBass · Oct 21, 2014

Rom 4:5 God justifieth the ungodly
Ex 23:7 God will not justify the wicked

Contradiction?

Calminian · Oct 21, 2014

SeaBass said:

No, you're again asserting this, but not supporting it. The difference is in the word justification. Words can differ in meaning with context.

SeaBass said:

Justified before who? You don't realize it yet, but you just refuted your first statement. You agree with me that Paul is using the word different here and not referring to justification before God.

SeaBass, everyone on this thread sees the equivocation error you're making.

equivocation -- Sometimes referred to as "amphiboly". A fallacy that stems from the ambiguous meaning of certain words. For example, 1. Only man is logical. 2. No woman is a man. 3. Therefore, no woman is logical. "Man" in the first sentence really means "mankind," "humankind," "homo sapiens". "Man" in the second sentence means "maleness". The syllogism appears to be valid, but in fact is fallacious because of the subtle shift in meaning.

Jackson123 · Oct 21, 2014

Cassian said:

Jesus said if the branch abide to the vine, it will bear the fruit. If we have faith, it will naturally bear the fruit.

Have the faith mean entrust to Jesus, mean abide to Him.

Jackson123 · Oct 21, 2014

newbirth said:

hearing and faith is 2 different word and have 2 different meaning.

Brother newbirth, now we are discuss about the requirement of salvation.

And I believe faith is the answered. In order to be save you have to have a faith in Jesus.

As son as you have faith in Him, and die in the same second you go to heaven.

You believe salvation + work, so you believe if one accept Jesus and die in the same second, he go to hell.

You believe as son as you go to water baptism, your sin to that second are forgiven don't you?

you believe ritual baptism forgive your sin.

That way you believe work must be include in the requirement for salvation.

I believe, Faith alone is the requirement. when you have a genuine faith, abide in Him, it will bear the fruit.

So the fruit is product/fruit of faith. let me repeat, if the branch abide to the vine, it will bear the fruit.

Paul not busting about the fruit, because it is the product of Holy spirit. Let not take credit that belong to Holy spirit.

Jackson123 · Oct 21, 2014

SeaBass said:

[h=1]Ephesians 2:10King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ya, when we abide in Him, then we bear the fruit/good work.

But it is happen after faith.

Faith alone is the requirement of salvation, because of faith we abide in Him and naturally will bear the fruit/good work.

If the branch not abide to the vain, no matter what, the branch can't bear the fruit of it self. It is what He/Jesus said.

SeaBass · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

So can one who is a Christian NOT do good works yet still be saved? NO

Therefore works are a necessity in being saved. And Paul was not, could not be eliminating these good works in Rom 4:4,5, Paul was not eliminating ALL works in Rom 4:4,5.

Cassian · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

Do you understand a conditional statement? The above is as condition that IF one is abiding, one will bear fruit. Man's problem is that it is very difficult to abide faithfully.

Calminian · Oct 21, 2014

SeaBass said:

Correct.

SeaBass said:

False.

This is a form of the affirming the consequent fallacy. Works are the consequent of saving faith, but that does't mean works are causative in salvation.

affirming the consequent -- A fallacy of the form "if A, then B; B, therefore A". Example: "If Smith testifies against Jones in court, Jones will be found guilty. Jones was found guilty. Therefore, Smith must have testified against him." {Jones could have been found guilty without Smith's testimony.}

The fact that B results from A does not mean that B causes that same things as A.

Jackson123 · Oct 21, 2014

SeaBass said:

A. The definition of christian is Christ follower. He follow Christ do do good work. But it start with faith. If there is a christian not doing good work, it may because he or she die in the same second he or she decide to have faith in Jesus.

So the requirement is faith alone, if work require for salvation than dying people is hopeless. we don't need to evangelized them.

There isn't christian not doing good work if they still a life as a fruit for being encounter /abide with Jesus.

So the question is christian not doing good work save, is irrelevant.

profess christian not necessary real christian. not real christian is non christian.

SeaBass · Oct 21, 2014

Calminian said:

Both James and Paul use justification (dikaioō) in the same way. There is no difference in the meaning of the word justified (dikaioō) in Rom 4:2 and James 2:24.

Paul is saying one is NOT justified (rendered righteous) by works of merit and James is saying one IS justified (rendered righteous) by obedient works. So both Paul and James are using the same definition for justified, the difference is in HOW one is justified (rendered righteous by obedience) and not justified (not rendered righteous by works of merit).

Calminian said:

Justified before God for it is God that justifies man.

Again Paul and James are in total, 100% agreement that obedient works justifies. James in James 2:21-25 and Paul in Rom 6:16-18. It is in Rom 4 Paul is talking about works of merit that do not justify one before God.

As a matter of fact, in Rom 10:3 Paul mentions both (1) works of merit and (2) obedient works in this one verse showing how the Jew were lost for they went about do works of merit and would not submit/obey the commands of God.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

1) going about to establish their OWN righteousness = works of merit
2) submitting themselves unto the righteousness of GOD = obedient works

All works are not the same whereas some works cannot save (works of merit) and other works (obedience to God's will) do save as seen in this one verse of Rom 10:3.

The fallacy is upon your theology.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Paul says you serve either one of two masters: You serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2. Which do you serve?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Note the order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin (justified)

Paul puts obedience BEFORE free from sin/justified.

Cassian · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

You have a very strange understanding. Faith is NOT a one time event. It is NOT that one believes and everything else is simply filler that follows.
There is no such thing as faith alone. Faith alone is a journey to hell. Faith is continuous, if it stops, one cannot be saved.

Faith is the framework and everything else is content. Faith does NOT enter one into Christ. Faith simply justifies a person, puts a person into a correct alignment. Repentance is a necessity, baptism is the ONLY way one enters into Christ. Works of righteousness maintains the faith, no works, no faith, one is no longer abiding in Christ. Sin separates man from Christ and only confession of those sins keeps one in Christ. All these actions are initiated by man. God, nor the Holy Spirit, does any work for you. You are responsible for your faith, your faithfulness. The Holy Spirit stands at the door and knocks, He will not enter unless you open the door. A person can quench the Holy Spirit and leave the fold at his own choosing. God does not compel you to enter or to remain.

newbirth · Oct 21, 2014

Jackson123 said:

so you say you believe and accept and you don't die the same second you ready to go to heaven then you don't need to bear fruit you can go just as you are...there is no need to abide... the one who died did nothing so why should you have to do anything...you both meet the same requirements....faith alone....It cannot be faith alone for him and faith with works for you....what is the purpose of abide and bear fruit since you are saved already...and meet all the necessary requirement?
you reject scripture and hold on to doctrine of man...and fail to obey the word of God

In context: Romans 4:4-5

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