a challenge for those who believe Jesus allows divorce after adultery

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A

AVoice

Guest
#21
I have to give AVoice props for challenging a guy with a chainsaw.

It appears to me that AVoice is saying that remarriage is the unforgivable sin and means going to hell for sure.

Is that how you slice it up?
Every major sin not repented of and continued in, even in ignorance, will result in hell. I am only calling for the acknowledgment of the simplicity of Christ as expressed in Mark 10:2-12 and Luke 16:18 and 1 Cor 7:39 and Rom 7:2,3. These are the basis of the old solemn phrase, 'till death do us part'. The verses in Matt 5:31,32 and Matt 19:9 have been misunderstood to contradict that old established Christian foundational truth. Nowadays it is no longer 'till death do us part' but "till death or abandonment or anything else I can use, "do us part"'. The OP provides the means to absolutely prove that the modern divorce for adultery theory is a very grievous heresy.
 
A

AVoice

Guest
#22
I don't know what kind of penalty voice is attaching to divorce, but that old testament law is not for us. Paul laid out clearly how we should behave. The jews Christ spoke to had a covenant relationship with God. The gentile never had such a thing, and that is why it was necessary for Paul to detail how that aspect of our lives should be managed in respect to God's wishes.
"The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
It is unfortunate for phil's argument that truth applies to everyone. Jesus IS the truth. He spoke truth. What he taught about marriage was to "whosoever".
Five times Jesus identified remarriage as adultery. Paul did so twice. That makes 7 times in the NT
It is amazing how modern so called Christians can assert, with no shame whatsoever, that remarriage is NOT adultery.
Shall adulterers go to heaven? Did not Paul say that they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
 
A

AVoice

Guest
#23
I don't know what kind of penalty voice is attaching to divorce, but that old testament law is not for us. Paul laid out clearly how we should behave. The jews Christ spoke to had a covenant relationship with God. The gentile never had such a thing, and that is why it was necessary for Paul to detail how that aspect of our lives should be managed in respect to God's wishes.
phil, you seem confused.
The OT allowed divorce and remarriage as seen in Deut 24:1

Jesus referred to that verse (Deut 24:1) in Matt 5:31. He establishes that he is in fact addressing normal post marital divorces, that his dialogue in Matt 5:31,32 absolutely pertains to that kind of divorce, the same kind of divorce we are all familiar with.

After Jesus referred to this verse (Dt 24:1) in Matt 5:31, he went on to say "but I say unto you".
So it was the OT that allowed divorces. It is from the NT that we get the phrase, 'till death do us part.'
So do you need to correct your former statement suggesting that I am trying to enforce an OT law that is not for NT believers? Please answer this question. I will answer whatever question you have for me.
 
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A

AVoice

Guest
#24
I always say that actions speak louder than words, Christ tells us that even thinking wrongly about a person is as good as murder and adultery. One member of my church leadership was given a word from God by a visiting speaker, he told him that God said he is preparing a wife for him.

A few months later this woman turns up with boyfriend in tow, they were sleeping together and she had numerous relationships in past. Turns out she gave her self over to Christ, boyfriend departed, she was the woman who God was preparing, less than a year later they marry.

If marrying someone who is divorced was such an issue with God, then why allow this to happen? Why bring divorced people together, if it is a sin, then surely just confessing that sin to God and saying sorry to God is enough to make that clean and God then does not see it. It is a shame how people get so hung up on this.
The story was not that clear, who was divorced, the woman or the male member in your church who married her?
 
A

Angelmommie

Guest
#25
So here is my question..if a person divorces, for any reason, and they ask for Jesus to forgive this sin, because of course Jesus knows their heart and if they are truly repenting..isn't the sin forgiven like any other sin or are you saying this is special and there for can not be forgiven?
 
A

AVoice

Guest
#26
I do wonder whether your argument is actually more presuppositional rather than exegetical. For what reason do you assume that the exception clause the and the topic sentence are concerning two different subjectS?

They do not seem at all at odds to me - if a woman is divorced for fornication/adultery, and she then marries another man, that second man would seem not to be guilty of adultery. If she is divorced for the same reason, she is not then caused to commit adultery a second time, because she is already an adulterer. If, however, she is given a certificate of divorce for any other reason, she is caused to committ adultery, because she is still in a legitimate relationship.

I would say an analogous sentence would be:

You have heard it said, "When riding your bike, yell very loudly at people on the street"
But I say to you, anyone who yells loudly at people on the street, except if their lives are in danger, will cause those people unnecessary anguish"

I fear that perhaps in your example you actually built your assumptions about the text into your examples. In your second example it is explicit (it mentions taking things from the boss without his knowledge, and therefore permission), in the first and third it is inly implied. However, a semantically logical reading of those two examples also yields a different reading. For instance, in your last example, why should I conclude sentence A is only talking about living spacemen? It simply specifies spacemen, of which dead spacemen are a subset to which the exception can apply.
I am so thankful for your taking the time to respond to this thread. Yours are the kinds of intelligent and rational responses that I am looking for.
Let us focus on your parallel that you have provided:
You have heard it said, "When riding your bike, yell very loudly at people on the street"
But I say to you, anyone who yells loudly at people on the street, except if their lives are in danger, will cause those people unnecessary anguish".

Please provide a background story for why it would be said in the first place to yell at people on the street. Is this what some rowdy teenagers are doing? What practical real life scenario would make what was said something that would make, under the particular scenario you can describe, sensible? We can easily identify where Jesus is coming from because he is referencing Deut 24:1 when he refers to what they have heard said. Provide some reference so we can have some practical grasp on the scenario your parallel presents. My first reaction is that this must be referring to mischievous behavior, such as by teenagers. You can make a background story if you like so that when reading the parallel itself, everything will naturally fall into place and be coherent and easy to understand.

This is what a parallel that accepts the challenge should look like:
A) [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) [if a particular act is done)
2) [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do in clause 3.]

Broken down this is what your parallel looks like:
A) You have heard it said, "When riding your bike, yell very loudly at people on the street"
B) But I say to you,
1) anyone who yells loudly at people on the street, e
2) except if their lives are in danger,
3) will cause those people unnecessary anguish,
4) and whoever joins in the yelling causes unnecessary anguish.

Notice I have added clause 4 to conform to the challenge. Your parallel does not conform on some points but let us see how this goes. So before we can proceed we need to establish what exactly is the topic of discussion. Is this rowdy teenagers who like to make the older folks upset? Please provide a practical explanation or scenario that would make what was said in clause A sensible. There has to be a reason for the yelling to be encouraged by "you have heard it said".

My scenario for the spacemen is that they are in a stranded situation where there may not be enough oxygen for everyone to survive until the supply ship arrives. The discussion is about 'what was said', that the older astronauts should have their spacesuits taken from them for the sake of the survival of some, as opposed to the possible death of all. The "but I say to you" forbids the taking from the older spacemen because it will cause them to die. The exception clause gives no partial allowance to take a living spaceman's spacesuit. The announcement is a complete prohibition, the exception clause provides no partial permission or reason to do what is being prohibited. An example of a partial allowance would be, "unless he is diagnosed with a deadly disease". He still being alive, then taking his spacesuit for that reason would be a partial allowance.

So let's look at the parallel about the spaceman:
A) You have heard it said that the spacesuits of our older comrades should be taken from them:
B) but I say to you that
1) anyone who takes a space walking spaceman’s spacesuit from him,
2) except in the case where he’s already dead,
3) will cause him to die
4) and anyone using the spacesuit taken from a spaceman will be deemed an accomplice.

First of all clause 1 clarifies what clause A is referring to. We see the same thing in Matt 5:31,32. For that reason I did not include the background story because it seemed there was enough in the parallel itself for the reader to deduce a practical reason for taking their suits.

Let us try to insert the exception clause mentioned above that would provide partial allowance, "unless he is diagnosed with a deadly disease":
A) You have heard it said that the spacesuits of our older comrades should be taken from them:
B) but I say to you that
1) anyone who takes a space walking spaceman’s spacesuit from him,
2) unless he is diagnosed with a deadly disease,
3) will cause him to die,
4) and anyone using the spacesuit taken from a spaceman will be deemed an accomplice.

Do you see what has happened? The sentence format of Matt 5:31,32 does NOT ALLOW an exception clause that will provide partial allowance of the topic under discussion. The sentence now, from a very literal perspective, is nonsensical. It is saying that if someone takes a spacesuit from an astronaut who is diagnosed with a deadly disease, the person taking the suit will NOT cause that spaceman to die. This occurs because the sentence format can ONLY accommodate a 'non essential' exception clause. The original sentence is talking about taking a suit from a living spaceman and the exception clause JUMPS to identifying something very different; taking from a dead spaceman. That exception clause is non essential. When a sentence was written and intended to have a meaning where a non essential clause functions coherently, it is expected that the meaning will become garbled if that non essential clause is changed to an essential clause. That is what has happened to Matt 5:31,32 AND Matt 19:9. The exception clause in both was intended to be a non essential clause touching on an entirely different kind of divorce. (In the parallels we see a different kind of apple a different kind of astronaut and a different kind of taking from an employer). When interpreted that fornication means adultery, and thereby becoming an "essential" exception clause, these verses, Matt 5:31,32 and 19:9, from a very literal, word for word perspective, are nonsensical. They contradict themselves as well as each other.
There are questions about Matt 5:31,32 and 19:9 that manifest the nonsense created in these verses when fornication is taken to mean adultery.

You have provided a parallel that is literally, from a word for word perspective, coherent. It also conforms to a large part to the challenge presented. Therefore because it is literally coherent and practical in meaning, I expect that once you establish a commonsensical scenario identifying the kind of yelling done before, which kind is being prohibited by the sentence, we will again find the same type of function that is seen in the parallels in the OP. The kind of action prohibited is not partially allowed by the exception clause because the exception clause will be seen to jump to what was NOT the specific topic under discussion. As all 3 parallels in the OP are all seen to jump.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#27
I'm not following any of this fixation of divorce. It is clear from the bible that infidelity in a marriage is grounds for permitting remarriage. Actually, there are many valid biblical reasons that provide for a rationale for a valid remarriage in the eyes of God but that is scriptural meat and there are many that have yet to be weaned off scriptural milk, live in fear and become resigned to a lifetime of an abusive marital relationship without hope of ever entering into a happy and fulfilling marriage with a more suitable prospective spouse.
 
A

Angelmommie

Guest
#28
"The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
It is unfortunate for phil's argument that truth applies to everyone. Jesus IS the truth. He spoke truth. What he taught about marriage was to "whosoever".
Five times Jesus identified remarriage as adultery. Paul did so twice. That makes 7 times in the NT
It is amazing how modern so called Christians can assert, with no shame whatsoever, that remarriage is NOT adultery.
Shall adulterers go to heaven? Did not Paul say that they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Wow..did Jesus not say repent and be saved?
 
A

AVoice

Guest
#29
So here is my question..if a person divorces, for any reason, and they ask for Jesus to forgive this sin, because of course Jesus knows their heart and if they are truly repenting..isn't the sin forgiven like any other sin or are you saying this is special and there for can not be forgiven?
We are talking about two consecutively occurring events. First there is a divorce, then there is what follows, a remarriage while the first lawful spouse is still alive. Jesus identified that remarriage is adultery 5 times and Paul identified it twice for a total of 7 times in the NT.
The word adultery already has a clear meaning. One of the ten commandments specifically forbade adultery. Adultery is the sexual violation of a marriage. Since Jesus identified remarriage to be adultery and adultery already has a clear definition, we can take Jesus' words in confidence to mean exactly what they plainly appear to be saying: remarriage is adultery. Remarriage involves sex between the couple and that sex is adultery. The marriage that has been divorced from is still valid by God's law because both persons in that first marriage are still alive. They are still married to one another in God's eyes. "Till death do us part" accurately reflects what the NT teaches.

What you are asking, as I understand it, is if the couple who are in an ongoing adulterous relationship by remarriage can continue in that adulterous relationship after having been forgiven. Forgiveness comes on condition of repentance. Like adultery, repentance has a clearly established meaning; the sorrowful and broken acknowledgement that wrong has been committed along with the sincere intention and desire to stop that behavior.
Name one other sin that can have been committed before repentance, which after repentance and forgiveness, permission is granted to continue in that very same sin. Many "Christians" are claiming that such is the case with adultery by remarriage: their being granted forgiveness comes with permission to continue in what they were supposed to have repented from: what Jesus identifies as adultery.
If such is the case with adultery by remarriage so then we have to grant permission to idolatry being committed by being covetous, or murder being committed in the heart by being hateful. Can a person repent and be forgiven of those things, for example, which forgiveness grants them permission to continue doing the identical things that they have repented from and been forgiven of?
Answer these questions and I believe your question will have been answered.
 
A

AVoice

Guest
#30
I'm not following any of this fixation of divorce. It is clear from the bible that infidelity in a marriage is grounds for permitting remarriage. Actually, there are many valid biblical reasons that provide for a rationale for a valid remarriage in the eyes of God but that is scriptural meat and there are many that have yet to be weaned off scriptural milk, live in fear and become resigned to a lifetime of an abusive marital relationship without hope of ever entering into a happy and fulfilling marriage with a more suitable prospective spouse.
If it was "clear" from the "greater" and "better" New Covenant that divorce is permitted on the grounds of adultery, then why is there clear convolution in meaning in Matt 5:31,32 and 19:9 when "fornication" is assumed to mean adultery? Why do those texts have a clear non convoluted straightforward meaning when it is understood that the exception clause for fornication applied to their cultural premarital divorce we see Joseph was about to do with Mary in Matt 1? Along with understanding their uses of the terms husband wife and divorce to apply to that kind of divorce?
Why can no one provide a sentence to prove that Matt 5:31, 32 can function the way the divorce for adultery people say it functions? This is a very easy challenge. Just provide one sentence after the format of Matt 5:31,32 where the exception clause can provide partial allowance for the topic under discussion. Matt 5:31 establishes the topic to be divorce as we know it and the exception clause is assumed to be providing partial allowance for that kind for divorce, for adultery. Please provide a sentence that can demonstrate that function. That will completely shut me up. Carefully read the OP

But no one can do that because the sentence format Jesus chose for Matt 5:31,32 forbids that such an exception clause can exist in that sentence format and make literal sense.
The divorce for adultery hypothesis has been crushed, beyond any recognition, of having any credibility.
 
A

Angelmommie

Guest
#31
So..question..say you get divorced and then remarried while your say an atheist...so now you and your new husband find God together..are you saying that Jesus does not want you and will not recognize your marriage?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,400
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#32
If it was "clear" from the "greater" and "better" New Covenant that divorce is permitted on the grounds of adultery, then why is there clear convolution in meaning in Matt 5:31,32 and 19:9 when "fornication" is assumed to mean adultery? Why do those texts have a clear non convoluted straightforward meaning when it is understood that the exception clause for fornication applied to their cultural premarital divorce we see Joseph was about to do with Mary in Matt 1? Along with understanding their uses of the terms husband wife and divorce to apply to that kind of divorce?
Why can no one provide a sentence to prove that Matt 5:31, 32 can function the way the divorce for adultery people say it functions? This is a very easy challenge. Just provide one sentence after the format of Matt 5:31,32 where the exception clause can provide partial allowance for the topic under discussion. Matt 5:31 establishes the topic to be divorce as we know it and the exception clause is assumed to be providing partial allowance for that kind for divorce, for adultery. Please provide a sentence that can demonstrate that function. That will completely shut me up. Carefully read the OP

But no one can do that because the sentence format Jesus chose for Matt 5:31,32 forbids that such an exception clause can exist in that sentence format and make literal sense.
The divorce for adultery hypothesis has been crushed, beyond any recognition, of having any credibility.
If the bible is impossible to understand why does anyone continue to read it? Jesus says that it is not permissible to remarry except for grounds of adultery but it turns out that He didn't really mean this after all.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
113
#33
The Challenge


Make a sentence like this:

Matt 5:
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Let us break it down and identify what the sentence does on a very basic level:

A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) But I say unto you, [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife, [if a particular act is done)
2) saving for the cause of fornication, [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) causeth her to commit adultery: [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now let us isolate what the parallel is supposed to do:

A) [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) [if a particular act is done)
2) [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now an example of a parallel that sufficiently performs after the manner required:
A) You have heard it said, that students, whose families own orchards, should be allowed to leave apples on the hoods of their cars at the beginning of harvest time in thankfulness to God.
B) but I say to you:
1) whosoever shall leave his apple on the hood of his car,
2) saving for the cause of rottenness,
3) causes a passing child to commit theft:
4) and whosoever takes an apple found sitting on the hood of another's car, committeth theft".

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that if you need something at home, go ahead and take it, the boss won’t even know it’s gone
B) but I say to you
1) that whoever takes something
2) except with permission to borrow
3) causes their employer monetary loss
4) and whoever urges an employee to pilfer is an accomplice in the crime.

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that the spacesuits of our older comrades should be taken from them:
B) but I say to you that
1) anyone who takes a space walking spaceman’s spacesuit from him,
2) except in the case where he’s already dead,
3) will cause him to die
4) and anyone using the spacesuit taken from a spaceman will be deemed an accomplice.

The kind of sentence that Matt 5:32 is, doing what it has been shown to do on a very basic level, cannot make sense while having an exception clause that provides partial allowance of what the sentence is addressing, as established by A). In the first example about apples, the topic is obviously about apples in good condition. The exception clause does not give partial permission to put good apples on the hoods of cars. Rather, the exception clause jumps to what was not under consideration or even hinted at; rotten apples. In the second example, pertaining to a culture of pilfering by employees, the exception clause also does not give partial permission to take what is needed at home without permission. The exception clause jumps to something other than what the topic of the sentence is as established by A). In the third example, as well, the exception clause jumps to taking from a dead spaceman when the topic of discussion was about taking from a live spaceman. In these cases, if attempts are made to make the exception clause provide partial allowance concerning what the topic of discussion is, as established in A), then the sentence becomes literally non coherent. That is because such an attempt is in reality an attempt to force a sentence that can only accommodate a “nonessential” exception clause, (that jumps to a side point not under discussion) to accommodate an “essential” exception clause (that provides partial allowance of what is under discussion). It is impossible for this kind of sentence to have an exception clause that provides partial allowance for what is being discussed, as established in A), and at the same time to make literal sense.

Notice how the sentences in the three examples above have a reasonable flow of comprehension. They are coherent. It is not necessary to read and reread numerous times and speculate what the author was trying to convey and devise different theories concerning what was the intended meaning. But if the exception clause of these parallels were changed to possess an essential exception clause, providing partial allowance of what is being discussed, then there would be good reason to start speculating because there would not be a flow of comprehension. For example, in the last parallel; if the exception clause were to provide partial allowance by saying, “unless the astronaut is over 60 years old”, then the sentence becomes convoluted. So it is with Matt 5:31,32; the entire sentence makes no literal straightforward sense and is convoluted when it is assumed that Jesus is providing partial allowance to do what he is addressing, which is the post marital divorce. He is speaking of post marital divorces as per Matt 5:31 (referencing Deut 24:1), and the exception clause is assumed to be providing partial allowance of that kind of divorce; for her having committed adultery. Notice the convoluted mess it is when fornication is assumed to mean adultery:

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as adultery]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery as per 4), then how can the mechanics of the sentence simultaneously say that she that was divorced for adultery was not caused to commit adultery if divorced for that reason? If she that was divorced for stinky feet is caused to commit adultery, obviously because she becomes vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house, then isn’t the woman divorced for adultery likewise not caused to commit adultery, similarly, that she is not made vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house? The whole long sentence cannot be taken literally and make sense. Interjecting phrases and making complex deductions becomes necessary to arrive at theories what the author must have intended.


Now read the exception clause as NOT providing partial allowance, but rather as a nonessential exception clause that jumps away to touch on something other than what the sentence is centrally addressing, as established in A):

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as the premarital kind of divorce Joseph was about to do with Mary while only engaged, as revealed in Matt 1:18-24]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The wife divorced after this manner is not caused to commit adultery. That makes perfect sense, since she is still single, not having cleaved to her husband, from which status if she had entered, and thereby becoming joined together by God, only death could part. All divorces not after this manner, all post marital divorces, are wrong because they cause the wife to commit adultery. A frightful crime to be charged with in judgment before a jealous God. This reading, taking the exception clause as not providing partial allowance of what is under discussion, (the nonessential kind, the only kind of exception clause the sentence can accommodate), makes perfect sense and is in line with the rest of Matt 5 where Jesus is establishing kingdom commandments and identifying things derived from the law that under the new testament were to be no longer allowable. This particular prohibition in effect declares that the only way a man can divorce his wife is if it is a betrothed wife, which kind of divorce was identified for the common reason it was done, for “fornication”, not adultery. The exception clause, creating a comparison between the two different kinds of divorces, postmarital and premarital, completely eliminated the former on the grounds that it causes the wife to commit adultery, as well as identifying the man who marries that divorced woman as committing adultery with another man’s wife. That other kind of divorce, done premaritally, is not an offense to God. In their culture the man and woman who were engaged possessed the titles of “husband” and “wife” and the termination of the engagement was called a ‘putting away’, the same term used for divorce. The exception clause jumped to that other kind of divorce just like the 3 parallels above, whose nonessential exception clauses jumped to what was not the topic of discussion. The nonessential exception clause, the kind that jumps to something other than what is being addressed, is the only kind that can work in this kind of sentence. This kind of clause can also be omitted altogether from a sentence containing it and no damage occurs since it touches on a point the sentence is not directly addressing.

It is fitting that we give Jesus the last word on this. Notice how the straightforwardness of his words in Mark and Luke, which authors did not include the exception clause, fully agree with the understanding that the exception clause of Matt 5:32; 19:9 is “nonessential”, and therefore can be left out without disturbing the central thrust of the sentence, and therefore does not give partial allowance of what is under discussion. These easy to understand words, spoken in the context of a one-man-one-woman first time marriage, are to be taken at face value:

Mark 10:
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

I am just wondering are you a lawyer?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,400
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Tennessee
#34
The Challenge


Make a sentence like this:

Matt 5:
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Let us break it down and identify what the sentence does on a very basic level:

A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) But I say unto you, [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife, [if a particular act is done)
2) saving for the cause of fornication, [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) causeth her to commit adultery: [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now let us isolate what the parallel is supposed to do:

A) [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) [if a particular act is done)
2) [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now an example of a parallel that sufficiently performs after the manner required:
A) You have heard it said, that students, whose families own orchards, should be allowed to leave apples on the hoods of their cars at the beginning of harvest time in thankfulness to God.
B) but I say to you:
1) whosoever shall leave his apple on the hood of his car,
2) saving for the cause of rottenness,
3) causes a passing child to commit theft:
4) and whosoever takes an apple found sitting on the hood of another's car, committeth theft".

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that if you need something at home, go ahead and take it, the boss won’t even know it’s gone
B) but I say to you
1) that whoever takes something
2) except with permission to borrow
3) causes their employer monetary loss
4) and whoever urges an employee to pilfer is an accomplice in the crime.

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that the spacesuits of our older comrades should be taken from them:
B) but I say to you that
1) anyone who takes a space walking spaceman’s spacesuit from him,
2) except in the case where he’s already dead,
3) will cause him to die
4) and anyone using the spacesuit taken from a spaceman will be deemed an accomplice.

The kind of sentence that Matt 5:32 is, doing what it has been shown to do on a very basic level, cannot make sense while having an exception clause that provides partial allowance of what the sentence is addressing, as established by A). In the first example about apples, the topic is obviously about apples in good condition. The exception clause does not give partial permission to put good apples on the hoods of cars. Rather, the exception clause jumps to what was not under consideration or even hinted at; rotten apples. In the second example, pertaining to a culture of pilfering by employees, the exception clause also does not give partial permission to take what is needed at home without permission. The exception clause jumps to something other than what the topic of the sentence is as established by A). In the third example, as well, the exception clause jumps to taking from a dead spaceman when the topic of discussion was about taking from a live spaceman. In these cases, if attempts are made to make the exception clause provide partial allowance concerning what the topic of discussion is, as established in A), then the sentence becomes literally non coherent. That is because such an attempt is in reality an attempt to force a sentence that can only accommodate a “nonessential” exception clause, (that jumps to a side point not under discussion) to accommodate an “essential” exception clause (that provides partial allowance of what is under discussion). It is impossible for this kind of sentence to have an exception clause that provides partial allowance for what is being discussed, as established in A), and at the same time to make literal sense.

Notice how the sentences in the three examples above have a reasonable flow of comprehension. They are coherent. It is not necessary to read and reread numerous times and speculate what the author was trying to convey and devise different theories concerning what was the intended meaning. But if the exception clause of these parallels were changed to possess an essential exception clause, providing partial allowance of what is being discussed, then there would be good reason to start speculating because there would not be a flow of comprehension. For example, in the last parallel; if the exception clause were to provide partial allowance by saying, “unless the astronaut is over 60 years old”, then the sentence becomes convoluted. So it is with Matt 5:31,32; the entire sentence makes no literal straightforward sense and is convoluted when it is assumed that Jesus is providing partial allowance to do what he is addressing, which is the post marital divorce. He is speaking of post marital divorces as per Matt 5:31 (referencing Deut 24:1), and the exception clause is assumed to be providing partial allowance of that kind of divorce; for her having committed adultery. Notice the convoluted mess it is when fornication is assumed to mean adultery:

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as adultery]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery as per 4), then how can the mechanics of the sentence simultaneously say that she that was divorced for adultery was not caused to commit adultery if divorced for that reason? If she that was divorced for stinky feet is caused to commit adultery, obviously because she becomes vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house, then isn’t the woman divorced for adultery likewise not caused to commit adultery, similarly, that she is not made vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house? The whole long sentence cannot be taken literally and make sense. Interjecting phrases and making complex deductions becomes necessary to arrive at theories what the author must have intended.


Now read the exception clause as NOT providing partial allowance, but rather as a nonessential exception clause that jumps away to touch on something other than what the sentence is centrally addressing, as established in A):

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as the premarital kind of divorce Joseph was about to do with Mary while only engaged, as revealed in Matt 1:18-24]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The wife divorced after this manner is not caused to commit adultery. That makes perfect sense, since she is still single, not having cleaved to her husband, from which status if she had entered, and thereby becoming joined together by God, only death could part. All divorces not after this manner, all post marital divorces, are wrong because they cause the wife to commit adultery. A frightful crime to be charged with in judgment before a jealous God. This reading, taking the exception clause as not providing partial allowance of what is under discussion, (the nonessential kind, the only kind of exception clause the sentence can accommodate), makes perfect sense and is in line with the rest of Matt 5 where Jesus is establishing kingdom commandments and identifying things derived from the law that under the new testament were to be no longer allowable. This particular prohibition in effect declares that the only way a man can divorce his wife is if it is a betrothed wife, which kind of divorce was identified for the common reason it was done, for “fornication”, not adultery. The exception clause, creating a comparison between the two different kinds of divorces, postmarital and premarital, completely eliminated the former on the grounds that it causes the wife to commit adultery, as well as identifying the man who marries that divorced woman as committing adultery with another man’s wife. That other kind of divorce, done premaritally, is not an offense to God. In their culture the man and woman who were engaged possessed the titles of “husband” and “wife” and the termination of the engagement was called a ‘putting away’, the same term used for divorce. The exception clause jumped to that other kind of divorce just like the 3 parallels above, whose nonessential exception clauses jumped to what was not the topic of discussion. The nonessential exception clause, the kind that jumps to something other than what is being addressed, is the only kind that can work in this kind of sentence. This kind of clause can also be omitted altogether from a sentence containing it and no damage occurs since it touches on a point the sentence is not directly addressing.

It is fitting that we give Jesus the last word on this. Notice how the straightforwardness of his words in Mark and Luke, which authors did not include the exception clause, fully agree with the understanding that the exception clause of Matt 5:32; 19:9 is “nonessential”, and therefore can be left out without disturbing the central thrust of the sentence, and therefore does not give partial allowance of what is under discussion. These easy to understand words, spoken in the context of a one-man-one-woman first time marriage, are to be taken at face value:

Mark 10:
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
......Huh?
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#35
The story was not that clear, who was divorced, the woman or the male member in your church who married her?
The woman, but so what.

Legalism is an unnecessary burden on Christians who want to stick to religious dogma and theology.

It is rather simple, so I will keep this basic. God says marrying after divorce is adultry, but God says just about everything we do is a sin. If a divorced Christian who divorces for whatever reason falls in love again and wants to remarry to another Christian who is also divorced then why should that be a problem if they both love Christ and keep God at center of it all?
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#36
I am just wondering are you a lawyer?
Doubt it just another Christian who is suckered into Legalism and has enough time to sit for hours typing about why we must all think the same and also be legalistic, which results in condemning numerous divorced people into a life of misery as they can never take a spouce again.
 
Oct 15, 2014
149
1
0
#37
If you had a man and women who split in a marriage , an say, both had fault in it.

If at least one truly repented, that person is new . If there was any sin as a result of that divorce, Christ is Able, to forgive that. They are new. The former things are passed away.

If you believe Christ forgives as I do, then both parties are allowed to even remarry . They are new. The former things are gone. Christ sets us free. Christianity does not put you in bondage.

Wouldnt matter what the situation was, if they repent in Christ name, they are forgiven .
 
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May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
#38
The Challenge


Make a sentence like this:

Matt 5:
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Let us break it down and identify what the sentence does on a very basic level:

A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) But I say unto you, [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife, [if a particular act is done)
2) saving for the cause of fornication, [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) causeth her to commit adultery: [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now let us isolate what the parallel is supposed to do:

A) [Something the listeners are familiar with is brought to their attention, which identifies the topic of the sentence]
B) [An enlightenment or clarification or correction of some sort is forthcoming]
1) [if a particular act is done)
2) [unless done for a reason or under certain circumstances]
3) [causes whoever or whatever has been the recipient of that action to do something negative]
4) [a third party becomes involved and thereby becomes guilty of the same thing the recipient of the original action was caused to do.]

Now an example of a parallel that sufficiently performs after the manner required:
A) You have heard it said, that students, whose families own orchards, should be allowed to leave apples on the hoods of their cars at the beginning of harvest time in thankfulness to God.
B) but I say to you:
1) whosoever shall leave his apple on the hood of his car,
2) saving for the cause of rottenness,
3) causes a passing child to commit theft:
4) and whosoever takes an apple found sitting on the hood of another's car, committeth theft".

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that if you need something at home, go ahead and take it, the boss won’t even know it’s gone
B) but I say to you
1) that whoever takes something
2) except with permission to borrow
3) causes their employer monetary loss
4) and whoever urges an employee to pilfer is an accomplice in the crime.

Another example:
A) You have heard it said that the spacesuits of our older comrades should be taken from them:
B) but I say to you that
1) anyone who takes a space walking spaceman’s spacesuit from him,
2) except in the case where he’s already dead,
3) will cause him to die
4) and anyone using the spacesuit taken from a spaceman will be deemed an accomplice.

The kind of sentence that Matt 5:32 is, doing what it has been shown to do on a very basic level, cannot make sense while having an exception clause that provides partial allowance of what the sentence is addressing, as established by A). In the first example about apples, the topic is obviously about apples in good condition. The exception clause does not give partial permission to put good apples on the hoods of cars. Rather, the exception clause jumps to what was not under consideration or even hinted at; rotten apples. In the second example, pertaining to a culture of pilfering by employees, the exception clause also does not give partial permission to take what is needed at home without permission. The exception clause jumps to something other than what the topic of the sentence is as established by A). In the third example, as well, the exception clause jumps to taking from a dead spaceman when the topic of discussion was about taking from a live spaceman. In these cases, if attempts are made to make the exception clause provide partial allowance concerning what the topic of discussion is, as established in A), then the sentence becomes literally non coherent. That is because such an attempt is in reality an attempt to force a sentence that can only accommodate a “nonessential” exception clause, (that jumps to a side point not under discussion) to accommodate an “essential” exception clause (that provides partial allowance of what is under discussion). It is impossible for this kind of sentence to have an exception clause that provides partial allowance for what is being discussed, as established in A), and at the same time to make literal sense.

Notice how the sentences in the three examples above have a reasonable flow of comprehension. They are coherent. It is not necessary to read and reread numerous times and speculate what the author was trying to convey and devise different theories concerning what was the intended meaning. But if the exception clause of these parallels were changed to possess an essential exception clause, providing partial allowance of what is being discussed, then there would be good reason to start speculating because there would not be a flow of comprehension. For example, in the last parallel; if the exception clause were to provide partial allowance by saying, “unless the astronaut is over 60 years old”, then the sentence becomes convoluted. So it is with Matt 5:31,32; the entire sentence makes no literal straightforward sense and is convoluted when it is assumed that Jesus is providing partial allowance to do what he is addressing, which is the post marital divorce. He is speaking of post marital divorces as per Matt 5:31 (referencing Deut 24:1), and the exception clause is assumed to be providing partial allowance of that kind of divorce; for her having committed adultery. Notice the convoluted mess it is when fornication is assumed to mean adultery:

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as adultery]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery as per 4), then how can the mechanics of the sentence simultaneously say that she that was divorced for adultery was not caused to commit adultery if divorced for that reason? If she that was divorced for stinky feet is caused to commit adultery, obviously because she becomes vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house, then isn’t the woman divorced for adultery likewise not caused to commit adultery, similarly, that she is not made vulnerable to other men after being put out of her husband’s house? The whole long sentence cannot be taken literally and make sense. Interjecting phrases and making complex deductions becomes necessary to arrive at theories what the author must have intended.


Now read the exception clause as NOT providing partial allowance, but rather as a nonessential exception clause that jumps away to touch on something other than what the sentence is centrally addressing, as established in A):

Matt 5:
A) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
B) But I say unto you,
1) That whosoever shall put away his wife,
2) saving for the cause of fornication [read as the premarital kind of divorce Joseph was about to do with Mary while only engaged, as revealed in Matt 1:18-24]
3) causeth her to commit adultery:
4) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The wife divorced after this manner is not caused to commit adultery. That makes perfect sense, since she is still single, not having cleaved to her husband, from which status if she had entered, and thereby becoming joined together by God, only death could part. All divorces not after this manner, all post marital divorces, are wrong because they cause the wife to commit adultery. A frightful crime to be charged with in judgment before a jealous God. This reading, taking the exception clause as not providing partial allowance of what is under discussion, (the nonessential kind, the only kind of exception clause the sentence can accommodate), makes perfect sense and is in line with the rest of Matt 5 where Jesus is establishing kingdom commandments and identifying things derived from the law that under the new testament were to be no longer allowable. This particular prohibition in effect declares that the only way a man can divorce his wife is if it is a betrothed wife, which kind of divorce was identified for the common reason it was done, for “fornication”, not adultery. The exception clause, creating a comparison between the two different kinds of divorces, postmarital and premarital, completely eliminated the former on the grounds that it causes the wife to commit adultery, as well as identifying the man who marries that divorced woman as committing adultery with another man’s wife. That other kind of divorce, done premaritally, is not an offense to God. In their culture the man and woman who were engaged possessed the titles of “husband” and “wife” and the termination of the engagement was called a ‘putting away’, the same term used for divorce. The exception clause jumped to that other kind of divorce just like the 3 parallels above, whose nonessential exception clauses jumped to what was not the topic of discussion. The nonessential exception clause, the kind that jumps to something other than what is being addressed, is the only kind that can work in this kind of sentence. This kind of clause can also be omitted altogether from a sentence containing it and no damage occurs since it touches on a point the sentence is not directly addressing.

It is fitting that we give Jesus the last word on this. Notice how the straightforwardness of his words in Mark and Luke, which authors did not include the exception clause, fully agree with the understanding that the exception clause of Matt 5:32; 19:9 is “nonessential”, and therefore can be left out without disturbing the central thrust of the sentence, and therefore does not give partial allowance of what is under discussion. These easy to understand words, spoken in the context of a one-man-one-woman first time marriage, are to be taken at face value:

Mark 10:
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Sorry, but, I'm not following your logic. You're comparing two different classes of apples, Jesus isn't. Also, just because Mark and Luke don't mention the exception doesn't mean it wasn't said. Remember Mathew was a disciple of Jesus, Mark and Luke weren't. Mathew traveled with Jesus for three years, Mark and Luke didn't. I think if any of the three had a more full understanding of what Jesus taught it was Mathew.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#39
Do you see what has happened? The sentence format of Matt 5:31,32 does NOT ALLOW an exception clause that will provide partial allowance of the topic under discussion. The sentence now,from a very literal perspective, is nonsensical. It is saying that if someone takes a spacesuit from an astronaut who is diagnosed with a deadly disease, the person taking the suit will NOT cause that spaceman to die. This occurs because the sentence format can ONLY accommodate a 'non essential' exception clause. The original sentence is talking about taking a suit from a living spaceman and the exception clause JUMPS to identifying something very different; taking from a dead spaceman. That exception clause is non essential. ...

That is what has happened to Matt 5:31,32 AND Matt 19:9. The exception clause in both was intended to be a non essential clause touching on an entirely different kind of divorce. (In the parallels we see a different kind of apple a different kind of astronaut and a different kind of taking from an employer). When interpreted that fornication means adultery, and thereby becoming an "essential" exception clause, these verses, Matt 5:31,32 and 19:9, from a very literal, word for word perspective, are nonsensical. They contradict themselves as well as each other.
For all the semantic argumentation and extremely literalistic analysis, this is what your entire argument boils down to. I believe your theory, as exhaustive as it is, stands or falls on this one point, and this point is less semantic and more presuppositional, and exegetical.

Your argument in regards to the spaceman discussion was that taking a spacesuit from a spaceman that is alive cannot allow any exception clause that allows the very thing the rest of the discussion is designed to prevent.

However, the point of the exception clause in Matthew 5 is surely that one does not cause a woman to committ adultery via divorce, in the case in which she is already an adulteress?

In other words, the construction states that divorce causes the partner to be an adulteress, except in those circumstances in which she is already one.

I do not see a contradiction.
 
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P

phil112

Guest
#40
phil, you seem confused.
...................
You ARE confused, and you SEEM stupid.
You never did rebut post 6. I brought scripture. You rebut it with scripture-or pipe down. The simple fact remains that Paul taught you and I about divorce and Christ talked to jews in a covenant relationship with God about it. That simple fact makes your argument completely and utterly nonsensical.

You want bible on divorce and marriage? If both are believers, here is what Paul said: Don't divorce your mate. For anything, if he/she is willing to stay. If your mate insists on leaving, let him/her leave. A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases. "Not under bondage"......If you weren't free to remarry you would still be under bondage to the first mate, that first contract of marriage.
How believers deal with divorce is completely different than unbelievers. Unbelievers view of that is none of our business and we shouldn't concern ourself with it unless asked. How new testament believers deal with it is not the same as old testament believers. They had the law. We are free from the law. That was fulfilled on the cross.

You are building a false doctrine on a bunch of unfactual points.