Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[nl]

...The James Webb telescope is set for launch in 2018. It will be far more powerful than the Hubble and will surpass all ground based instruments. What if it shows us a universe different than the one we now imagine to exist? I don't believe we have the final answers.

I believe the evidence of documents, archaeology, culture that testify to the reality of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus, Peter, Paul and John and more as described in the Bible. We also have the testimony of the Jewish people and of the Christian churches who established a testimony and have sustained a belief for centuries often at great personal cost.

You can't run out of digits to add Nl.

You can't reach infinity because you can always add one more number no matter where you are in a sequence, and no matter where you are in the sequence it is just another natural number.

Infinity as a number is not a natural number.

Saying God is infinite just rolls off the tongue, but is he really? How do you add one more to God? I'd say God is finite. Does God have to keep getting bigger and bigger without end? If so then God is ever changing.

Infinity and God are something beyond what us created mortals can fully understand.

That's why the new James Webb telescope is so exciting. Its primary mirror is 21 feet in diameter. Compare that to the much smaller 8 foot mirror of the Hubble. Its optics will peer inside galactic clouds and show us whether stars are actually being born there, and it will show us new and much larger vistas of galaxies. There will be less to speculate about and more to measure.

Mathematical models support this view, but yes, we don't yet have physical evidence. However, if the math is correct then so is the model.

I too agree with Phi'ls signature block, but remember the man who is refusing to acknowledge the mountain of evidence in front of himself may be you. I have the mountain in full view and I think it is beautiful.

An infinite universe would be majestic and beautiful and exciting and even glorious. Oneness with such a universe would be the same.

An infinite God is majestic and beautiful and exciting and glorious. Separation from Him for an eternity would be a tragedy.

A God who overlooked sin and rendered no justice would not be glorious. The atonement of Jesus Christ is how God can justly pardons sins. But, the pardon is not universal and not applied to everyone. When a crime is done, no amount of prison time or fine can really undo the impacts of the crime that was done.

The two eternal states that the Bible describes are something that I didn't create but can only report on. Anticipation of such an eternity contains serious and fearful portents. One is an infinity of beauty and pleasure. The other is an infinity of sorrow and pain but not unjust. Ralph Venning in his book Sin: The Plague of Plagues (1669) asserts that sinners will continue to sin throughout eternity. Love and compassion require that we not ignore such information even if it is difficult to comprehend.

 

[nl]

...the litany of biblical threats made against those such as myself.

The fear of God is a prominent theme in the Bible. The Bible does contain warnings. I pass them along perhaps out of duty but sometimes wish that it didn't seem necessary.

...I cannot comprehend why a god of such power cares what I – a mere mortal, one of perhaps billions who have existed through time – thinks. That such a god would seek revenge and wish to punish, perhaps even desire eternal suffering, for the mere act of not believing the correct things about him, speaks more, I think, to his moral failure as a loving Being. Does such a god truly deserve worship?...

It seems that you are judging God but the Book indicates that God will judge you. I don't necessarily enjoy passing along such a message.

God would not be righteous and blameless if He ignored sin. Sin may be reasoned to be behavior of commission and omission that works in opposition to God and neighbor. Sin dishonors God and harms our neighbor by bad example and otherwise. When God granted a degree of free will to men and women, He granted the freedom to sin.

Aside: If aliens existed elsewhere in this universe or another and if the aliens had sufficient free will, then they would be free to sin. Life on earth is unlikely enough with all of its extreme improbabilities and inter-dependencies. Personally, I think that intelligent life elsewhere in the universe in unlikely. Almighty God is powerful enough that He could create a universe for his own purposes and merely as a backdrop for humans on earth.

From Ralph Venning (1669), Sin:The Plague of Plagues (The Sinfulness of Sin) on the sufferings of Jesus Christ:

God did not spare his Son, when he came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was no sinner except by representation. God was ever well pleased with his Son, yet when he stood in the place of sinners it pleased the Lord to bruise him. it was as if no one else could strike a stroke hard enough, and though he cried with strong cries, yet his Father would not take the cup out of his hand. He did not suffer for sinning himself, for though he was tempted to sin yet he was without sin but he suffered for the sins of others. In the glass of his suffering we may clearly see the sinfulness of sin.

 

[Cycel]

You can't reach infinity because you can always add one more number no matter where you are in a sequence, and no matter where you are in the sequence it is just another natural number.

Infinity as a number is not a natural number.

Infinity is not a number at all. It is a definition, just as finite is a definition, not a number.

Infinity and God are something beyond what us created mortals can fully understand.

That is really only playing a game with words. Saying God is infinite really has no meaning. It adds nothing to our definition of God.

I might also ask you if Ganesh, the Hindu elephant-headed god, is beyond the understanding of us created mortals? A Hindu might say yes, but for those of us who do not accept the existence of Ganesh, this claim is only a word game coming from Hindus who don't know how to express what Ganesh truly encompasses for them. So much of what Hindus perceive about Ganesh is a mystery beyond human comprehension. Or is it?

 

[Dan_473]

(don't know if i should post this here, or start new thread... I'll try it here)

do we have the ability to choose? I don't think there is any known physical process that would give us what we normally think of as Choice... this leads me to want to explore the supernatural. comments?

 

[Cycel]

...The James Webb telescope is set for launch in 2018. It will be far more powerful than the Hubble and will surpass all ground based instruments. What if it shows us a universe different than the one we now imagine to exist? I don't believe we have the final answers.

I believe the evidence of documents, archaeology, culture that testify to the reality of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus, Peter, Paul and John and more as described in the Bible. We also have the testimony of the Jewish people and of the Christian churches who established a testimony and have sustained a belief for centuries often at great personal cost.

I received a surprise last week after posting that bit about the upcoming James Webb space telescope. ALMA antenna array has just made a significant discovery. It has captured the image of a planetary star system in the very act of creation (though it might be better to say, in the act of evolving). Below is an image taken by the Hubble telescope of an area astronomers have long suspected was the birth place of new stars and planetary systems.

The inset image is the result of data collected by the ALMA array -- a radio telescope. It shows the actual image of a new star system, buried within the galactic cloud. The stellar disk is punctuated by rings where new planets are sweeping their orbits free of gas, dust, and other debris. By doing so they are accumulating mass. This has never before been seen with such exquisite detail. The nebular hypothesis has long predicted the presence of such stars within clouds of this sort, but the available technology did not allow astronomers the ability to penetrate the veil that hid what was happening inside such clouds -- until now! Many astronomers, I think, were stunned by the detail that ALMA captured. Note that the telescope is not yet complete. Fifteen more radio antennas still need to be installed. So this was an early test of the facilities capabilities. And I thought we had to await the deployment of the James Webb space telescope to see such things. All I can say is, "Wow!"

Spectacular View of Newborn Planetary System Captured by Radio Telescope - Scientific American

 

[Bride]

I received a surprise last week after posting that bit about the upcoming James Webb space telescope. ALMA antenna array has just made a significant discovery. It has captured the image of a planetary star system in the very act of creation (though it might be better to say, in the act of evolving). Below is an image taken by the Hubble telescope of an area astronomers have long suspected was the birth place of new stars and planetary systems.

The inset image is the result of data collected by the ALMA array -- a radio telescope. It shows the actual image of a new star system, buried within the galactic cloud. The stellar disk is punctuated by rings where new planets are sweeping their orbits free of gas, dust, and other debris. By doing so they are accumulating mass. This has never before been seen with such exquisite detail. The nebular hypothesis has long predicted the presence of such stars within clouds of this sort, but the available technology did not allow astronomers the ability to penetrate the veil that hid what was happening inside such clouds -- until now! Many astronomers, I think, were stunned by the detail that ALMA captured. Note that the telescope is not yet complete. Fifteen more radio antennas still need to be installed. So this was an early test of the facilities capabilities. And I thought we had to await the deployment of the James Webb Space Telescope to see such things. All I can say is, "Wow!"

Spectacular View of Newborn Planetary System Captured by Radio Telescope - Scientific American

Wow for sure I love it thank you for posting!

 

[nl]

(don't know if i should post this here, or start new thread... I'll try it here)

do we have the ability to choose? I don't think there is any known physical process that would give us what we normally think of as Choice... this leads me to want to explore the supernatural. comments?

Mind and will or choice and emotion are in the realm of the metaphysical. Sure, I believe in responsible human free will and choice. Some might argue that we are guided by instinct. Some might argue extreme forms of psychological behavioral determinism like a B. F. Skinner.

We have it in written form as a testimony from earlier generations that Jesus Christ said that we will need to give account for every idle, purposeless word. We have much discretionary choice regarding what to speak and when to speak.

 

[Cycel]

I believe the evidence of documents, archaeology, culture that testify to the reality of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus, Peter, Paul and John and more as described in the Bible. We also have the testimony of the Jewish people and of the Christian churches who established a testimony and have sustained a belief for centuries often at great personal cost.

Personal testimony in no way validates the truth of a belief system. If it did then Ganesh, and a whole pantheon of other deities, would be established fact.

Nl, I must point out that the documentary evidence does not support your claims either. The conservative interpretation may well support your views, but the broader on going textual criticism of the last 200 years comes to very different conclusions.

 

[Cycel]

do we have the ability to choose?

If you are wondering whether people who move from belief in God to atheism have a choice in the matter, most conservative Christians would answer, "Yes." They, however -- for the most part -- don't have any personal experience in the matter. I can't answer for all atheists, but for myself I have to tell you I don't know exactly how, or when, I became an atheist. I never made a conscious choice, that I recall, of not to believe in God. I have early memories of questioning God's existence, and I have a memory being an atheist, but I have no memory of consciously giving up belief. I have heard a number of atheists say that for them a day simply arrived on which they realized they no longer believed. Again, no conscious choice was made.

Perhaps some believers reach the point where one day they just say to themselves, "I can't believe in God any more" and so they turn a corner and become atheists. I just never hear of it happening that way.

I don't think there is any known physical process that would give us what we normally think of as Choice... this leads me to want to explore the supernatural. comments?

I know the appeal of wanting to investigate the supernatural. I did it to a limited extent myself. I came away with the realization that the literature was very poorly documented and filled with so-called personal experiences that could not be corroborated. People who believe in ghosts, astral projection, ESP, reincarnation, seances, and so on, often do so on the basis of strong faith in the legitimacy the claims.

 

[Cycel]

...I cannot comprehend why a god of such power cares what I – a mere mortal, one of perhaps billions who have existed through time – thinks. That such a god would seek revenge and wish to punish, perhaps even desire eternal suffering, for the mere act of not believing the correct things about him, speaks more, I think, to his moral failure as a loving Being. Does such a god truly deserve worship?...

It seems that you are judging God but the Book indicates that God will judge you. I don't necessarily enjoy passing along such a message.

So it would seem from what I have written, but as an atheist I do not judge God. I do not judge what I do not think exists. Instead I see it as a commentary on the believers who wrote the pertinent biblical passages. It was they who desired a God who would ruthlessly punish the unbeliever who was persecuting them. See how that works?

 

[Cycel]

Aside: If aliens existed elsewhere in this universe or another and if the aliens had sufficient free will, then they would be free to sin.

I propose a thought experiment based upon your aside. Assume all had gone well on Earth with Adam and Eve, and no Fall occurred. What if your speculative sentient beings elsewhere in the universe had instead, taken the bite from the forbidden fruit? Would it make sense that those on Earth should pay the same price for their off-world disobedience? This is the claim that conservative Christians now make for Adam and Eve. The whole universe changed, apparently, because of their disobedience.

 

[Percepi]

I think a good way of putting it is that belief and disbelief aren't necessarily choices as much as they're options.

You have the option to believe cars run on goat blood. But we know they don't, so we can't really "choose" to believe cars run on goat blood since it contradicts what we understand. But, we do have the option to belief cars run on goat blood, though that would require ignorance of how cars work.

That's the best way I can put when it comes to "choosing" to believe in God or not. Atheists usually don't choose not to believe in God, it's just something that happens. They might choose to admit they no longer belief in God, or choose to question whether or not God is actually real, but they don't choose the conclusion they come too unless they go into denial of what they actually know (something many people claim).

 

[Dan_473]

If you are wondering whether people who move from belief in God to atheism have a choice in the matter, most conservative Christians would answer, "Yes." They, however -- for the most part -- don't have any personal experience in the matter. I can't answer for all atheists, but for myself I have to tell you I don't know exactly how, or when, I became an atheist. I never made a conscious choice, that I recall, of not to believe in God. I have early memories of questioning God's existence, and I have a memory being an atheist, but I have no memory of consciously giving up belief. I have heard a number of atheists say that for them a day simply arrived on which they realized they no longer believed. Again, no conscious choice was made.

Perhaps some believers reach the point where one day they just say to themselves, "I can't believe in God any more" and so they turn a corner and become atheists. I just never hear of it happening that way.




I know the appeal of wanting to investigate the supernatural. I did it to a limited extent myself. I came away with the realization that the literature was very poorly documented and filled with so-called personal experiences that could not be corroborated. People who believe in ghosts, astral projection, ESP, reincarnation, seances, and so on, often do so on the basis of strong faith in the legitimacy the claims.

I don't so much mean choosing to believe in God or not...but more: Can we make a choice of any kind? I think I can, but current knowledge of the physical world says No, I think.

 

[Dan_473]

I think a good way of putting it is that belief and disbelief aren't necessarily choices as much as they're options.

You have the option to believe cars run on goat blood. But we know they don't, so we can't really "choose" to believe cars run on goat blood since it contradicts what we understand. But, we do have the option to belief cars run on goat blood, though that would require ignorance of how cars work.

That's the best way I can put when it comes to "choosing" to believe in God or not. Atheists usually don't choose not to believe in God, it's just something that happens. They might choose to admit they no longer belief in God, or choose to question whether or not God is actually real, but they don't choose the conclusion they come too unless they go into denial of what they actually know (something many people claim).

hi Percepi,
I wanted to include your post 3192 alongside of cycel's, but couldn't find a way to do it on my tablet... so, please consider 3193 addressed to yourself, as well...

 

[nl]

I propose a thought experiment based upon your aside. Assume all had gone well on Earth with Adam and Eve, and no Fall occurred. What if your speculative sentient beings elsewhere in the universe had instead, taken the bite from the forbidden fruit? Would it make sense that those on Earth should pay the same price for their off-world disobedience? This is the claim that conservative Christians now make for Adam and Eve. The whole universe changed, apparently, because of their disobedience.

Christian theologies vary some on this and I will assert that not Adam's guilt but Adam's corruption was conveyed to Adam's posterity. Each of us has enough guilt of our own. But, yes, Adam sinned and earth (not only humanity) suffered. Such is the sinfulness of sin that it impacts others adversely.

If theism in general and Christianity in particular are delusions at best and deceits and conspiracies at worst, then you must also believe in the corruption of human nature. If only 2% of the world is atheist and if atheism were true, then you must believe that at least 98% have gone astray.

Actually, the Bible asserts that 100% have gone astray.

All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way... - Isaiah 53:6

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. - Ezekiel 18:20

God provided a way out of our guilt. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but possess eternal life (John 3:16).

 

[nl]

...ALMA antenna array has just made a significant discovery. It has captured the image of a planetary star system in the very act of creation (though it might be better to say, in the act of evolving)...

Spectacular View of Newborn Planetary System Captured by Radio Telescope - Scientific American

I looked at this article and see speculation about planets forming around HL Tau, a single sun-like star found around 450 light-years away from Earth. There is speculation about a planetary system but no "star system" is being mentioned.

Creation implies a Creator. Evolution would be a biological process. Nothing is shown to be evolving there.

 

[Cycel]

I don't so much mean choosing to believe in God or not...but more: Can we make a choice of any kind? I think I can, but current knowledge of the physical world says No, I think.

I am planning to get a hair cut today. I made a choice not to go yesterday. I was going to do laundry yesterday but then put it off till today. Clearly we all make decisions.

Are you talking about a research claim that says our brains are aware of our decision before we become consciously aware of the decision ourselves?

 

[Cycel]

Christian theologies vary some on this and I will assert that not Adam's guilt but Adam's corruption was conveyed to Adam's posterity. Each of us has enough guilt of our own. But, yes, Adam sinned and earth (not only humanity) suffered. Such is the sinfulness of sin that it impacts others adversely.

I was speaking more of those who claimed all of creation changed because of the Fall. Some on this forum have said, for example, that there were no carnivores until the fall, that animals never ate, or that animals were immortal. It has been argued that there were no disease organisms until the Fall (shade of Pandora's Box). Some have claimed that things changed everywhere, even beyond the Earth! Perhaps you don't hold to any of these views, for you seem to say that the Fall directly affected only Adam's descendants (and the rest of Earth only as a result of human interaction).

 

[Cycel]

I looked at this article and see speculation about planets forming around HL Tau, a single sun-like star...

Ah, I see. You won't believe it until we have the technology to actually resolve the individual planets. Never mind that the presence of planets is the best explanation. What else do you think might be clearing those dust lanes, Nl?

This is what the hypothesis predicted we should see, and there it is!

I looked at this article and see speculation about planets forming around HL Tau, a single sun-like star found around 450 light-years away from Earth. There is speculation about a planetary system but no "star system" is being mentioned.

Star system and planetary system are the same thing. Note, for example, that our star system is often called the solar system. The solar system refers exclusively to the Sun and its planets, hence, a star system is any other planetary system. In any case, by saying star system I meant only planetary system. It is not a point worth disputing. It looks to me as though you are searching for anything you might contest.

Creation implies a Creator. Evolution would be a biological process. Nothing is shown to be evolving there.

If you were more familiar with astronomy you would know that that astronomers frequently refer to the evolution of stars, planetary systems, and galaxies. It is a common practice in this field.

 

[Brother_Don]

I received a surprise last week after posting that bit about the upcoming James Webb space telescope. ALMA antenna array has just made a significant discovery. It has captured the image of a planetary star system in the very act of creation (though it might be better to say, in the act of evolving). Below is an image taken by the Hubble telescope of an area astronomers have long suspected was the birth place of new stars and planetary systems.

The inset image is the result of data collected by the ALMA array -- a radio telescope. It shows the actual image of a new star system, buried within the galactic cloud. The stellar disk is punctuated by rings where new planets are sweeping their orbits free of gas, dust, and other debris. By doing so they are accumulating mass. This has never before been seen with such exquisite detail. The nebular hypothesis has long predicted the presence of such stars within clouds of this sort, but the available technology did not allow astronomers the ability to penetrate the veil that hid what was happening inside such clouds -- until now! Many astronomers, I think, were stunned by the detail that ALMA captured. Note that the telescope is not yet complete. Fifteen more radio antennas still need to be installed. So this was an early test of the facilities capabilities. And I thought we had to await the deployment of the James Webb space telescope to see such things. All I can say is, "Wow!"

Spectacular View of Newborn Planetary System Captured by Radio Telescope - Scientific American

Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.


Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Just a thought...