Atheists - Doubt Your Doubts

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Mar 6, 2014
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#21
Do atheists require a higher standard of proof in favor of Christ and Christianity than they do for their doubt and disbelief?
"Atheists" covers a very large group of people. Some atheists obsessively study religion and the arguments surrounding it. Others could not care less even if they were paid to. Some atheists blindly accept whatever Dawkins or Harris say. Others are only vaguely aware that atheism even has a movement or leaders.

I think the people you'd be more interested in are the skeptics, most of whom are atheists or agnostics, but not all. Most skeptics (all the ones I've met, anyway) use the same standard of proof for everything, even their own doubts and counterarguments.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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#22
It is possible to prove negative statements. 'Can't prove a negative' is a philosophy myth.
Can you prove there is not a small artificial asteroid orbiting Earth at several times the distance of the Moon that is an observation post created by an alien civilization to keep an eye on us?
 
Mar 6, 2014
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#23
Can you prove there is not a small artificial asteroid orbiting Earth at several times the distance of the Moon that is an observation post created by an alien civilization to keep an eye on us?
I thought it was a celestial teapot? :p
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#26
To the christians in this thread, please remember we have come to know the Living God through revelation, not a logical assumption. In other words, you can't just tell an unbeliever to believe. But..no harm in discussing though :)
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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#28
"Atheists" covers a very large group of people. Some atheists obsessively study religion and the arguments surrounding it. Others could not care less even if they were paid to. Some atheists blindly accept whatever Dawkins or Harris say. Others are only vaguely aware that atheism even has a movement or leaders.

I think the people you'd be more interested in are the skeptics, most of whom are atheists or agnostics, but not all. Most skeptics (all the ones I've met, anyway) use the same standard of proof for everything, even their own doubts and counterarguments.
Duly noted. Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Red_Tory

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
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#29
Can you prove there is not a small artificial asteroid orbiting Earth at several times the distance of the Moon that is an observation post created by an alien civilization to keep an eye on us?
Not as far as I'm aware. What of it?
 
Aug 30, 2014
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#30
Agreed. God is Exceptional :).

God would be the only Entity with a causeless existence living from everlasting to everlasting.
If you want to add special pleading into an argument, why not just say the universe is the exception to the rule that everything has a cause?
But besides that, this is basically the Kalam cosmological argument, which has been refuted by many people. I'm not trying to convince you that its wrong, I'm just saying that there are plenty of people who have a logical explanation for why your argument is not convincing. It isn't like that argument is just some bulletproof evidence that God must exist, therefore doubts about a God existing are unreasonable. You would first have to get someone to accept your argument if you want them to question their doubts.
 

Red_Tory

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
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#31
If you want to add special pleading into an argument, why not just say the universe is the exception to the rule that everything has a cause?
The traditional reply would be that the "universe" is complex and mutable, while the first cause or "unmoved mover" would be immutable and supremely simple.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
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#32
Here’s the entire Creation / Evolution debate settled without all the smoke and mirrors.
1. Ask your atheistic evolutionistic friend if they have been able to create cellular life from regularly occurring NEVER BEEN LIVING material found anywhere.


2. You will get a lot of hemming and hawing … things like well we don’t know all of the possible compounds that can occur in all environments …


3. But if you do, ask them if they know anything about chemistry and compounds, and how things combine in nature. Then ask if there is a different periodic table of elements, somewhere in the universe. The answer is, NO THERE ISN’T. The elements are the same. Their properties are the same. The things they combine with are the same. It’s the same everywhere. Therefore, since our scientists are even “creating” new elements, what we have here is probably more than is anywhere else in the universe.


4. Next point: Our greatest scientists, with all of their intelligence, all of their scientific advances, with all of their machines … cannot even create a single living cell from never living material. Why is this so important? Because even if they do manage to do so… eventually, it is going to take knowledge, and machinery far beyond what any of our scientists can imagine today.


5. Point 3: So why is this so important? Life, no matter where it came from, has to start from the basic raw chemicals and materials that were never living, ALL BY ITSELF. If the absolute best scientists, with our most advanced technologies can’t do this, it means that life can’t occur in a non-specialized environment without tremendous intellect and power beyond what any of them possesses. What kind of intelligence can create life from non-life? What kind of power is it that can do such a thing? Whatever it is, it is far more advanced than we are.


6. If any atheist/evolutionist is intellectually honest, the inability to create ANY life from non-life with the greatest of minds and technology is, by itself, proof that evolution is not viable. Also, even if we do, some day, advance technology to the point of being able to create a single cell in some specialized laboratory, the evolutionists still lose unless they can prove that what they do could happen by accident in some imaginary natural environment somewhere. If they are honest, they will admit that this can never happen.

7. By default, if we could never have “evolved life” anywhere in the universe because the periodic table and combinations of chemicals are universal throughout the universe, and even the most basic life cannot be created by our greatest minds and technology, even when we bend all the rules in a perfect, controlled, environment, then the origin of life has to be something preexisting all life, and that is far more advanced than we are.
 
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Sep 14, 2014
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#33
Here’s the entire Creation / Evolution debate settled without all the smoke and mirrors.
1. Ask your atheistic evolutionistic friend if they have been able to create cellular life from regularly occurring NEVER BEEN LIVING material found anywhere.


2. You will get a lot of hemming and hawing … things like well we don’t know all of the possible compounds that can occur in all environments …


3. But if you do, ask them if they know anything about chemistry and compounds, and how things combine in nature. Then ask if there is a different periodic table of elements, somewhere in the universe. The answer is, NO THERE ISN’T. The elements are the same. Their properties are the same. The things they combine with are the same. It’s the same everywhere. Therefore, since our scientists are even “creating” new elements, what we have here is probably more than is anywhere else in the universe.


4. Next point: Our greatest scientists, with all of their intelligence, all of their scientific advances, with all of their machines … cannot even create a single living cell from never living material. Why is this so important? Because even if they do manage to do so… eventually, it is going to take knowledge, and machinery far beyond what any of our scientists can imagine today.


5. Point 3: So why is this so important? Life, no matter where it came from, has to start from the basic raw chemicals and materials that were never living, ALL BY ITSELF. If the absolute best scientists, with our most advanced technologies can’t do this, it means that life can’t occur in a non-specialized environment without tremendous intellect and power beyond what any of them possesses. What kind of intelligence can create life from non-life? What kind of power is it that can do such a thing? Whatever it is, it is far more advanced than we are.


6. If any atheist/evolutionist is intellectually honest, the inability to create ANY life from non-life with the greatest of minds and technology is, by itself, proof that evolution is not viable. Also, even if we do, some day, advance technology to the point of being able to create a single cell in some specialized laboratory, the evolutionists still lose unless they can prove that what they do could happen by accident in some imaginary natural environment somewhere. If they are honest, they will admit that this can never happen.

7. By default, if we could never have “evolved life” anywhere in the universe because the periodic table and combinations of chemicals are universal throughout the universe, and even the most basic life cannot be created by our greatest minds and technology, even when we bend all the rules in a perfect, controlled, environment, then the origin of life has to be something preexisting all life, and that is far more advanced than we are.
Let's move straight along then and let's assume that there is a creator.

First we need to discuss is are we divinely created? Did advances aliens create us? Are we bacteria in a giant laundry basket?

And if we are divinely created...Out of all the thousands of gods that have been beleived in and the thousands of creation stories attached.. What evidence is there that your particular god of choice is the one responsible?

They can't all be right... But they can all be wrong.

So even if evolution and abiogenesis is debunked... Your still holding an empty sack.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
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#34
Let's move straight along then and let's assume that there is a creator.

First we need to discuss is are we divinely created? Did advances aliens create us? Are we bacteria in a giant laundry basket?

And if we are divinely created...Out of all the thousands of gods that have been beleived in and the thousands of creation stories attached.. What evidence is there that your particular god of choice is the one responsible?

They can't all be right... But they can all be wrong.

So even if evolution and abiogenesis is debunked... Your still holding an empty sack.
There are 2 methodologies that any man can employ to get to his beliefs.

The first is to gather everything you can "use" to prove your beliefs true, and to gather everything that you can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, then interpret all of your selected data in the light of your beliefs. While you can prove any belief under the sun to be "truth" using this methodology, in truth, those that employ it HATE truth and love their beliefs. This methodology can only do one thing: Harden you into whatever beliefs you have.

The second is to continuously keep on proving all things, over and over again, altering your beliefs to fit what is good / true. It involves gathering ALL of the data that might possibly pertain to the issue at hand, cutting each and every part out straight so that no information that is there is left out, no meaning that isn't there is added, and no meaning is distorted to force it to comply with our beliefs. Then al of that is combined so that everything fits fully with everything else. If something new comes along that you missed, you add it to everything else and reevaluate all of it, objectively.

What is your real goal? Do you want truth, or, in truth, do you just love your beliefs. True, all my previous post did was prove that Atheist evolutionists have no possible foot to stand on. There is a God, or a higher being that is the preexisting cause of life. Life could never have evolved. That should be a good starting point for those that might want to get to know that higher being... If they want to look for truth, that is.


As an ex Atheist who used to pull Christians from their faith using evolution, and a hand collected stack of over 10,000 errors in the scriptures, I was a very thorough person using the first methodology. I gathered EVERYTHING I could find to prove my beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false, and I was very good at pulling the faith of most Christians out from under them. I was challenged though. I found out the truth that there had to be a God. Then I went over the 10,000 plus errors I had gathered with people who had answers that were logical, reasonable and rational. Seems that there are logical, reasonable, rational reasons for about 9900 out of the 10,000, and since the remaining issues were almost meaningless trivia, and the very best that I, and all my atheist friends and professors could come up with was a mere thimble full of meaningless trivia, I was left with either throwing my brain away and continuing not to trust scripture, or acknowledging that it is the Word of God.


I still look at all of these things, and when someone "thinks" they have come up with new errors, I always reexamine them all, but most start from the assumption that the bible is chock full of errors and only gather the things they can "use" to prove their beliefs correct, and all opposing beliefs to be false, holding fast to their belief, interpreting their selected data in the light of their belief, and closing their eyes and ears to anything else.

That you acknowledge that evolution is not viable based on the facts doe you great credit. Perhaps you, like me years ago, should thoroughly seek out the opposite side of the argument on the other issues that you have, like whether or not the scriptures are accurate and trustworthy.

Currently, I have combined all of the major Greek documents from which almost all of our modern translations are compiled, along with the data from over 10,000 variants into one document. There are about 3-4 words that I would say are a bit different from what is presented in our modern translations. He shall be called Nazarene is probably the Aramaic word Nazara, which while used for Nazareth, is the primary word for "Branch", as in the branch of Jessie. Another is "If I deliver my body to be burned" should probably be, "If I deliver my body that I may boast". The difference in Greek is one character, and the modern change to "burned", appears to have started about the time Nero decided to make torches out of Christians.

Of course, the end of Mark, a small portion of Luke ... weren't in any of the earliest manuscripts and were later additions. I do not consider those scripture any more than I consider my margin notes in my bible to be scripture. But then, anyone can find these with a simple internet search. Other than that, there are some style differences like Christ Jesus vs. Jesus Christ, but EVERYTHING, including this style difference results in absolute consistency as to meaning. To be honest, since I was examining fragments almost 2 centuries old, along with the most recent documents, I expected much variation. The truth is, there is no meaningful variation at all (Exceptions already noted)
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#35
Let's move straight along then and let's assume that there is a creator.

First we need to discuss is are we divinely created? Did advances aliens create us? Are we bacteria in a giant laundry basket?

And if we are divinely created...Out of all the thousands of gods that have been beleived in and the thousands of creation stories attached.. What evidence is there that your particular god of choice is the one responsible?

They can't all be right... But they can all be wrong.

So even if evolution and abiogenesis is debunked... Your still holding an empty sack.
Post 26...
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
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#36
The bible never even mentions evolution, so Ive never really understood why it proved there was no God. It seems more like people who dont want to believe kinda jumped at it as a reason to not believe.
As for whether or not I believe in evolution, I dont really think it matters. I mean God could make such a thing happen, He made unclean food clean, and He can do anything. So why not? But does it really matter if I believe it? Do you think God would consider it important for us to know? The bible says man spends their time focusing on meaningless things, I think bickering about evolution is meaningless.

But, as for believing it, has anyone here really experienced it first hand? Has anyone evolved themselves? Or do they believe by the teachings of others?

As for false gods, the bible tells us the world is under the deception of satan. Its clear that demons create other religions with weird ideas of gods that are also the animals they are claimed to have created to keep people away from God. Their mission isnt to make you fear them, its to keep you focused away from God by any means.
If you come to God through faith, He helps you understand Him better and strengthen your faith. No matter what you believe, it will be by the teachings of others. Many Christians in the past and even today have very real experiences with God. People calling these things "hallucinations" and even "mass hallucinations", as in a large group of people having the same hallucination all at the same time because they arent logical seems more like someone trying to not believe to me.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#37
Let's move straight along then and let's assume that there is a creator.

First we need to discuss is are we divinely created? Did advances aliens create us? Are we bacteria in a giant laundry basket?

And if we are divinely created...Out of all the thousands of gods that have been beleived in and the thousands of creation stories attached.. What evidence is there that your particular god of choice is the one responsible?

They can't all be right... But they can all be wrong.

So even if evolution and abiogenesis is debunked... Your still holding an empty sack.
Quite the contrary.

Because the atheist first assumes there is an empty sack (no God, or no "Christian God")
he assumes evolution and abiogenesis must be correct,
and therefore never investigates those core issues in an unbiased way.

The atheist holds the empty sack.
He will never even CONSIDER investigating WHICH God may be correct;
he starts with the assertion ALL of them are incorrect.

To the atheist it is never a matter of "which God"...
he assumes any God is impossible,
and therefore there is NO INVESTIGATION INTO IT AT ALL.

So, if there IS NO INVESTIGATION, then the POSSIBLE OUTCOMES of such an investigation aren't even a valid point of discussion.

However, if someone DOES want to investigate "which God"...
there are many ways to make a valid case.
But with an atheist, I would never waste time on this.
It's like discussing the color of shoes with someone who doesn't believe shoes exist.

It's silly and pointless.

The Christian is NOT holding an empty sack.
The atheist will not even LOOK in the sack...
because he thinks the sack doesn't exit.


Now all the atheists will come and claim they DID look in the sack.
Well, simply put, no they didn't.
You can't take an unbiased look into a sack which you are already certain doesn't exist.
More nonsense and lies.
 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#38
To put it more succinctly,

the atheist approaches nothing without a fundamental bias.


They accuse the theist of this, and yet they do it with their every word and breath.
 
S

Siberian_Khatru

Guest
#39
Quite the contrary.

Because the atheist first assumes there is an empty sack (no God, or no "Christian God")
he assumes evolution and abiogenesis must be correct,
and therefore never investigates those core issues in an unbiased way.

The atheist holds the empty sack.
He will never even CONSIDER investigating WHICH God may be correct;
he starts with the assertion ALL of them are incorrect.

To the atheist it is never a matter of "which God"...
he assumes any God is impossible,
and therefore there is NO INVESTIGATION INTO IT AT ALL.

The Christian is NOT holding an empty sack.
The atheist will not even LOOK in the sack...
because he thinks the sack doesn't exit.


Now all the atheists will come and claim they DID look in the sack.
Well, simply put, no they didn't.
There are several blanket remarks here, maxwel. What, that is verifiable, are you basing these on?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#40
There are several blanket remarks here, maxwel. What, that is verifiable, are you basing these on?
Plenty of blanket statements. I've never assumed evolution is correct.

Maxwell likes arguing points that people don't even make.