Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#61
Acts 14:

8 And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. 9 This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10 said with a loud voice, “Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked.

So was this done during the time of Christ's ministry on earth?
You are not paying attention. My response was to Jesus never emptied any hospitals. An examination of Jesus earthly ministry clearly demonstrates that Jesus healed more folks at the start of His ministry than He did at the end.

The Apostles did heal folks as they were moved by the Holy Spirit and this was with purpose. God still heals but it is a false claim to declare oneself a healer.

God still does miracles but God is under no necessity to do so.

Anything no matter how good it's intended purpose if it detracts from Christ it is not good. If gifts take preeminence from Christ in the church then they are not good.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#62
And wow. That guy who thinks this world no longer needs healing and wisdom and discernment et al... wow. Ephphatha!
The world needs Jesus and Him crucified. A soul can enter heaven hungry, cold and infirmed but it cannot enter without the blood of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#63
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Where there are prophesies they will cease, where there are tongues they will be stilled, where there is knowledge it will pass away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes the imperfect disappears.

So the simple answer to your question. No. The gifts have not ceased for the end has not come yet.
Absolutely wrong. The three sign gifts ceased when the inspired word of God was completed. The prophecy in Joel of the sign gifts is not to the church but to Israel. Peter clearly expressed this at Pentecost. All that needed to be completed when Paul was writing to the Corinthians was the word of God.

The central point of what we are is Christ. Signs are for Israel not the Gentile church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#64
You are not paying attention. My response was to Jesus never emptied any hospitals. An examination of Jesus earthly ministry clearly demonstrates that Jesus healed more folks at the start of His ministry than He did at the end.

The Apostles did heal folks as they were moved by the Holy Spirit and this was with purpose. God still heals but it is a false claim to declare oneself a healer.

God still does miracles but God is under no necessity to do so.

Anything no matter how good it's intended purpose if it detracts from Christ it is not good. If gifts take preeminence from Christ in the church then they are not good.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Gotcha... I must admit Paul, Peter, John or any disciple claimed to be a healer. I would agree that there is no spiritual office in which one can claim to be specifically a healer.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#65
Gotcha... I must admit Paul, Peter, John or any disciple claimed to be a healer. I would agree that there is no spiritual office in which one can claim to be specifically a healer.
I am struck by the thought that we ought to desire to be a suffering church not a gifted church. This time of year we are all excited about giving and expressing holiday wishes for a merry Christmas and that is good. But and there is always a but, the church was a far greater influence in the world when it was outcast and persecuted for the name of Jesus. Would we still rejoice if we were destitute and infirmed? Would we be rejoicing if we could see souls saved through our suffering? The church in her affluence has demonstrated that you cannot buy souls for Christ.

Are not the most effectual prayers those borne of desperation? Can we not see how we ought to be in desperate prayer for souls to be saved? From that perspective the desire to have gifts of tongues and the like seems like tinkling brass.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#66
I cannot convince anyone that God has healed me of several infirmities. I cannot convince anyone that God gives my wife and I a clear word of prophesy occasionally, the latest, yesterday.
So be it unto you as your faith is. Sorry about your luck. But don't judge others that have certain functions of the Spirit operating in their lives. Yes there is a ton of foolishness floating around attributed to the Holy Spirit. That's where discernment kicks in.

Learn the red lights and green lights. Like the gal that cried out 'these men are of the most high God. Here them'. Paul cast the demon out of her......discernment folks which is a gift of God also.
I've walk away from tons of ministries, so called, that were operating in spirits that smelled of smoke. Benny Hinn, Duplantis, and tons of 'hot shot' churches that appeared to be 'in the Spirit' with the gifts and were not. God said flee and don't look back. Their are counterfeit bills floating around but I'm not throwing my wallet away because of that fact.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#67
Really. You believe this world really has no need of or use for miracles today.

Amazing

The world has no need for those signs for those signs were to bring about the completed word of God. Since the world HAS the completed word of God, it has no need for those miraculous signs today.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#68
I cannot convince anyone that God has healed me of several infirmities. I cannot convince anyone that God gives my wife and I a clear word of prophesy occasionally, the latest, yesterday.
So be it unto you as your faith is. Sorry about your luck. But don't judge others that have certain functions of the Spirit operating in their lives. Yes there is a ton of foolishness floating around attributed to the Holy Spirit. That's where discernment kicks in.

Learn the red lights and green lights. Like the gal that cried out 'these men are of the most high God. Here them'. Paul cast the demon out of her......discernment folks which is a gift of God also.
I've walk away from tons of ministries, so called, that were operating in spirits that smelled of smoke. Benny Hinn, Duplantis, and tons of 'hot shot' churches that appeared to be 'in the Spirit' with the gifts and were not. God said flee and don't look back. Their are counterfeit bills floating around but I'm not throwing my wallet away because of that fact.
Acts 16:17 Now do you know why Paul did what he did? She was after all making a true statement.

Might want to make it a reflective statement.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#69
I cannot convince anyone that God has healed me of several infirmities. I cannot convince anyone that God gives my wife and I a clear word of prophesy occasionally, the latest, yesterday.
So be it unto you as your faith is. Sorry about your luck. But don't judge others that have certain functions of the Spirit operating in their lives. Yes there is a ton of foolishness floating around attributed to the Holy Spirit. That's where discernment kicks in.

Learn the red lights and green lights. Like the gal that cried out 'these men are of the most high God. Here them'. Paul cast the demon out of her......discernment folks which is a gift of God also.
I've walk away from tons of ministries, so called, that were operating in spirits that smelled of smoke. Benny Hinn, Duplantis, and tons of 'hot shot' churches that appeared to be 'in the Spirit' with the gifts and were not. God said flee and don't look back. Their are counterfeit bills floating around but I'm not throwing my wallet away because of that fact.
Is this gift of discernment something that was revealed to you, or can you quote a verse in the bible that actually says this? I can't remember ever reading that discernment was ever a gift of the Spirit. I could see 2 sincere Christians claim to have discernment and disagree on some issues as far was the east is from the west.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#70
The world has no need for those signs for those signs were to bring about the completed word of God. Since the world HAS the completed word of God, it has no need for those miraculous signs today.
So all God was concerned with when He created the gifts was just to prove He wasn't lying. He had no concern at all for ending suffering.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#71
God will continue to provide healing as long as people are getting sick.

God will continue to provide knowledge, wisdom and discernment for as long as people need direction.

God will continue to provide tongues as long as people need to pray for things they know not.

God will continue to provide signs and wonders as long as people doubt.

God will continue to provide faith as long as people continue to be weak.

God will continue to provide administration as long as people are disorganized.

God will continue to provide prophecy as long as people need to hear His Word.

and

satan will continue to muddy the waters as long as people can be blinded by him to the truth.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#72
If you do not see miraculous gifts, this will tell you all you need to know about why that is:

Matthew 8:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 8
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” 26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. 27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
*
Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
*
Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21 She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 9
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.
*
Matthew 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
*
Matthew 14
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
*
Matthew 15
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 17
14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
*
Matthew 21
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
*
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#73
I cannot convince anyone that God has healed me of several infirmities. I cannot convince anyone that God gives my wife and I a clear word of prophesy occasionally, the latest, yesterday.
So be it unto you as your faith is. Sorry about your luck. But don't judge others that have certain functions of the Spirit operating in their lives. Yes there is a ton of foolishness floating around attributed to the Holy Spirit. That's where discernment kicks in.

Learn the red lights and green lights. Like the gal that cried out 'these men are of the most high God. Here them'. Paul cast the demon out of her......discernment folks which is a gift of God also.
I've walk away from tons of ministries, so called, that were operating in spirits that smelled of smoke. Benny Hinn, Duplantis, and tons of 'hot shot' churches that appeared to be 'in the Spirit' with the gifts and were not. God said flee and don't look back. Their are counterfeit bills floating around but I'm not throwing my wallet away because of that fact.
wow Yet...again a man full of wisdom and insight...your post have power even when certain folks try to deny the truth you are speaking...don't grow weary in well doing :)
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#74
There are 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit and they are not "natural" gifts, which means that you do not operate in them by natural means, they are supernatural gifts and distributed as the Holy Spirit Wills and he works through the person to manifest these gifts.

For ease of understanding and teaching they are often grouped together by function and in 3's.

The revelation Gifts reveal something and they are:

Word of knowledge:
Not something known by human knowledge, but given supernaturally to someone about someone by the Holy Spirit, usually a fact or detail of the present or past.
For example:
I was working the prayer line at a revival I had preached at and came to a young lady and I heard the Holy Spirit tell me "she attempted suicide last night and she has no hope". without embarrassing her I asked her why she tried to kill her self and why she had no hope. The girl confirmed what the holy Spirit had told me through the gift of knowledge and she was saved and the yoke of depression was broken off her life that night.


Word of wisdom:
Not human wisdom or wisdom you ask God for, or found in proverbs. This is a future fact in the mind of God and usually gives the process for getting something done. Building a new church, giving a seasonal step ordering word to someone about what God has called them to do.
For example: A friend gave a pastor at a revival a word of wisdom that the pastor himself should negotiate the price of the land they were attempting to get to build their church on. The pastor obeyed the Holy Spirit through the gift of wisdom given him by my friend. He went to the seller and made an offer that was $100,000 less than asking price or that the realtor would not ask for and the seller lowered the asking by that amount and said he wanted to deal with that pastor man to man. This was a word of Wisdom. To be clear my friend did not tell the pastor how the asking price, he just said to deal with the seller face to face.

Discerning of Spirits:
Allows one to see or hear into the spiritual realm, it is not the gift of discernment, it is the discernment of spirits and deals with the spirits behind something involving the human spirit or seeing or hearing the demonic and divine(angelic) It also not the gifts of judge preaching or someone teaching. It does not judge human motive either.
We have a prison ministry now and during a service one night one of the girls start dancing seductively and attmepted to take her clothes off while I was preaching. I ignored the girl and my wife and one of our fellow ministers quietly surrounded the girl and my wife saw and heard the perverse spirit manifesting through this young woman and in the name of Jesus commanded her to stop and in the name of Jesus leave the girl. The girl returned to herself and sat down and was later born again for the first time.

The power gifts do something and they are:

Supernatural Faith:
No saving faith or measure of faith, or prayer of faith. This is faith that believes for a miracle and is passive.

Miracles:
An intervention of God into the realm of Nature

Gifts of Healing:
Any supernatural healing of sickness, disease, etc, without medical intervention

The utterance or inspirational gifts say something:

Prophecy:
THis is general propehcy and speaks unto men words of edification, exhortation and comfort. Being used in this gift does not make the one being used in the gift a Prophet. This is not prediction or foretelling...New Testament prophecy usually is forth telling and not foretelling. Believers should not be led by prophecy, but by the Holy Spirit. Any word of prophecy should confirm something the Holy Spirit has already told you. I had a word of prophecy given to me 2 years ago about a new ministry an it confirmed what the Holy SPirit had already told me.

Divers kinds of tongues:
The manifestation of an supernatural unknown tongue or a lnaguage the person being used in has no knowledge of.

The supernatural utterance that many call a message in tongues falls into this gift and MUST be interpreted either by the one giving the utterance or another person.

This gift is also seen very frequently by visitors to the mission field who have no knowledge of the host langauge and the HOly SPirit allows them to speak and understand the host language. This happened to me all the time in Costa Rica, I don't know ANY Spanish, but the people I preached to and ministered with heard in their own language and I could here them in English, when they did not know English.

Interpretation of Tongues:
Not an interpretation or translation, but an explaining of divers kinds of tongues. Often times shorter than the message of tongues.

A message of tongues and proper interpretation is equivalent to prophecy[words of edification, exhortation and comfort]

This is just back of the napkin stuff, and they are used to today and as the Spirit wills to profit all. Are there abuses ? Yes
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#75
So all God was concerned with when He created the gifts was just to prove He wasn't lying. He had no concern at all for ending suffering.
Real suffering is not in this world but in the next. Christ came to save souls. The signs and miracles were to establish His divine authority. He came to suffer and die for sin that He might redeem man back to God and restore men lost in sin and darkness.

You have your priorities set on earthly things not on heavenly things. The gifts are not to take away from the preeminence of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#76
God will continue to provide healing as long as people are getting sick.

God will continue to provide knowledge, wisdom and discernment for as long as people need direction.

God will continue to provide tongues as long as people need to pray for things they know not.

God will continue to provide signs and wonders as long as people doubt.

God will continue to provide faith as long as people continue to be weak.

God will continue to provide administration as long as people are disorganized.

God will continue to provide prophecy as long as people need to hear His Word.

and

satan will continue to muddy the waters as long as people can be blinded by him to the truth.
God provided His only begotten Son that men might have eternal life.

The diabolical one continues to draw men away from Christ with things that do not matter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#77
God provided His only begotten Son that men might have eternal life.

The diabolical one continues to draw men away from Christ with things that do not matter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
How do you reconcile your last post and this one with the fact that Jesus operated in 7 of the 9 gifts we are discussing?

Careful now and really think through this roger or your head might explode....Philippians 2 tells us that Jesus did not use his divine nature while on earth. So I wonder how he did what he did!?!?
 
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E

evad

Guest
#79
Sir, art thou perhaps a sectarian bigot?
Sir, art thou a sectarian bigot.
I wondered whether or not to respond to your post. I had to think for a few moments whether or not to do so, perhaps to allow my feelings to subside a little so as to answer you peaceably.
It was indeed a very tierce response and loaded with sarcasm, and indeed a bigotry to which I hold to and many others, so in these six words you have swept into its net thousands of those who hold the Church of Rome, the Pontiff of Rome who makes claim to himself many Divine Titles which belong alone to the Father and to Christ and to the Holy Spirit . Elevates Mary to the station of Co-Remptress, the saints and Relics to objects of veneration and of worship, the priesthood as intermediaries between man and Christ, which alone belongs to Christ and so diminishes Him and elevates them to an authority that has never been given them, even to the forgiveness of sin. This and so many other things held as truth by the church of Rome is blasphemous. No institution or body of men have caused more blood to run upon this earth, none have so persecuted the saints of Christ as has the Church of Rome. Perhaps American history is not as aware of this but European history and of this nation, England, have the testimony of it, of the battles that were fought, spiritually, with Rome. It were they who in the main took up the sword as policy, involving the secular magistrates and their authority to do their dirty work for them.
Bigotry. Now there is a buzz word so freely tossed around. When I read that word a little shiver went over me, it reminded me of those faggots of woods gathered around the victims soon to be burnt alive, men, women, and children for holding to the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, and who were these zealous souls for Christ with their crosses and their cowels, people innocent of anything more than rejecting the pretences of Rome, owning a Bible and refusing the Mass, upon which lie the Church of Rome stands or falls and all these things sanctioned by the head of that church, The Pope.
If that faggot (bigotry) be laid at the foot of my faith and of those things I believe the word of God plainly tells me I must depart from as evil, then I must submit to that and not to the barb of bigotry. Once an arrow enters it is very difficult to remove it; how careful we as Christians should be in the words we use towards one another. Words must be spoken in truth and in love.
It would have been perhaps helpful both to yourself and to me had you made a little enquiry as to the reason why I wrote what I wrote in my post. I wonder how much thought you gave, I certainly gave a lot of thought before I wrote what I wrote.
Remember, I am a brother in Christ, and hold you as a brother in honour and esteem. I know, sadly there are differences, and this so much to be regretted, and would seek to find the faults from my side rather than from you, for as our dear Lord has told me, before removing the mote from your brothers eye remove the beam from yours, and by such words I feel deeply humbled. I hate dissension and hard words in the body of Christ, for we are His body. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Spirit be with us both and bless us in our walk with the Lord and with His.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#80
How do you reconcile your last post and this one with the fact that Jesus operated in 8 of the 9 gifts we are discussing?

Careful now and really think through this roger or your head might explode....Philippians 2 tells us that Jesus did not use his divine nature while on earth. So I wonder how he did what he did!?!?
When will you love Christ more than tongues? When will you love Christ more than healings? When will you wonder how Christ could love a sinner condemned and unclean enough to die in his place?

Only three sign gifts have ceased but they are the ones most coveted by superficial Christians.

What must God do for you to allow Christ to minister in your heart? Mark 10 Jesus came to be ministered unto but to minister.

For the cause of Christ
Roger