Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[mikeuk]

Matthew 18:18 is in a section of scripture in which we see the order of church discipline. If someone is acting in conflict with good biblical order and conduct or if they have committed an offense against another we are to go to them in an effort to resolve the issue and not to the secular authorities. If they do not respond we take an additional two or three witnesses and attempt a second time to correct the problem. If that fails then the matter is brought before the church for resolution. Failing that the person is put out and accounted as a lost soul. Matthew 18:15-18. The Lord continues the teaching by His promise to be in the midst of a gathering of believers and then transitions into teaching about forgiveness.
Roger

Yet again you do not answer. What specificallly is the power to bind and loose, particularly in matthew 16 and 18?
What is it, who does it, and how is it exercised in your brand of christianity today? You seem to cut that scripture loose, preferring to say who it was not, than say what it is . And that is the problem with protestantism - defined on a negative.
Anything goes so long as it is not the catholic interpretation!

So what do you think it means?

And the wider point I just made - since protestantism is born of endless schisms and fractures in doctrine, when jesus in Matthew 18:17 suggests one stage of disciplinary as you call it, the church has authority to pronounce on a matter of doctrine - how can he have meant one of the endless protestant splinter groups who all believe different things, and would therefore come to different decisions on the same matter?

 

[MarcR]

The whole premise of this battle of Catholics vs Protestants, is their own beliefs about what contains the Whole Truth about God.
The Catholics say the Church does, while on the other hand the Protestants say the Bible does.

My question to the Protestants is if the Bible contains the truth of God, how are you so sure of its authenticity? Catholics and Orthodox (I am Orthodox) teach that it is the Church which gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture and therefore it is the Church which is holds the sole authority of Truth. They say that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), which I believe it to be as well (Orthodox Church that is).

After knowing all of this, what is it that convinces you Protestants that the Bible is the Infallible Word of God? Just because somebody told you so? What then makes this any different than if someone told you the Koran was the Word of God? Many people believe the Koran to be the Word of God just as strongly as we Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God. But how would we know if it really was the Word of God and not a counterfeit?

Catholics and Orthodox do not just blindly believe in what somebody tells us is the Truth. We don't just blindly believe in a holy book of our liking. We hold that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), and therefore we have solid evidence of where the Truth of God is and of the Bible. With the Church, we have ample evidence which backs up the Bible as Truth because the Church made the Bible. The Church is what gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is what selected the 27 books of the NT. Therefore, if you don't trust it you cannot trust the Bible.

Without the Church though, you may as well believe in whatever 'holy' book you come across, or whatever anyone else teaches (A Muslim or a Buddhist) since you since you don't have a pillar of truth to walk on. Go ahead, pick up a Koran or any other holy book, they're all the same right? So where is the proof that one of them is the true Word of God? All of them speak the same thing, "pick me, I am the Truth".

Michael,

how are you so sure of its authenticity?

1) Considering all of the translations, they are far more remarkable for their agreement with one another than for their relatively minor differences.
2) among the Greek and Hebrew source documents from the earliest to the most recent the consistencies among them are remarkable.
3) even the minor differences (such as they are) among the translations and source documents do not lead to any doctrinal conflicts.
There are indeed doctrinal conflicts or this Forum would not be needed; but the conflicts do NOT arise from differences in translation.
4) Prophetic predictions of events 100 years to more than 2000 years in the future historically happened exactly as predicted
5) The Bible represents Itself as God's Word; and God, who is all powerful (even by Catholic doctrine) has done nothing to challenge that claim.

 

[fordman]

What makes you think any of these words and phrases apply to the Catholic Church?

Fifty-nine other modern groups could just as easily call themselves "universal", and say:

"See there!? We are that Universal Church. We have 'universal' in our name."

Have you never heard of Apostolic succession? Apostolic Succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. I'm pretty sure these "other fiftynine modern groups" can't trace their history back to the original Apostles like that of the Catholic Church. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles. The Catholic Church can trace through history the lineage of Popes from St. Peter to our current Pope Francis, something that is impossible in thirty three thousand differnt Protestant denominations. How about your church? How far back is its history? A hundred years? Maybe?

The term 'universal' may well have been used by some to describe the early Church; however, it did not apply in the slightest to a not-yet-existent Holy Roman Empire -- which is what it was called LONG before it was EVER called [ Roman ] Catholic Church.

And you have proof to back up this claim?

This is all moot. Constantine did not do it to become a [ real ] Christian. He did it to foment a State Church into existance.

Again..... history you disagree with you try and wish it untrue. Hate to tell ya this, but it just cant be done.
Have patience -- one day you will come to relize and understand this.

You have not proven anything. And, you are incorrect.

Is that right? Care to see some proof otherwise? Something you fail to do. (show proof)

History, for you, is what the RCC wants you to believe that it is...

Nope.... unlike you, I can accept that history is what it is, even if I don't agree with it. You should take off your blinders to give it a try.

Have patience -- one day you will understand

I understand fully, I pray someday you will too.. I'm off to Mass, where you will be in my prayers!



Pax tecum


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

 

[KenAllan]

Mikeuk, i have already given you the answer to what "bind and lose" means. If you had read what Dr. J. Vernon McGee said you would have the answer to your question. The problem is you are NOT looking for the answer, instead you are looking for validation for your interpretation of what the answer should be accordingly to the teachings of the corrupted Catholic Church.

As i see it, its not about finding the Truth that you seek. Its the validation that you are greater and better then us True Christians that you seek.

1 John 2:15-17
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Your "Pride" will keep you accepting the Truth in the Bible and will keep you from accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Just because you say you are a Christian means nothing. Its those who have received Salvation, who have received the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who have been made Righteous and who have been Justified by God that are the True Christians. Beware that not everybody who says "Lord, Lord" is a True Christian.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Mikeuk, you really need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior so you too can be filled with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will teach you all the Truths in the Bible.

Ephesians 1:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

You are being influenced by the Catholic Church to believe in that which is false. Beware, your Immortal Soul is at risk of Hell Fire.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Have you never heard of [/I]Apostolic succession? Apostolic Succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. I'm pretty sure these "other fiftynine modern groups" can't trace their history back to the original Apostles like that of the Catholic Church. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles. The Catholic Church can trace through history the lineage of Popes from St. Peter to our current Pope Francis, something that is impossible in thirty three thousand differnt Protestant denominations. How about your church? How far back is its history? A hundred years? Maybe?



And you have proof to back up this claim?



Again..... history you disagree with you try and wish it untrue. Hate to tell ya this, but it just cant be done.
Have patience -- one day you will come to relize and understand this.



Is that right? Care to see some proof otherwise? Something you fail to do. (show proof)

Nope.... unlike you, I can accept that history is what it is, even if I don't agree with it. You should take off your blinders to give it a try.


I understand fully, I pray someday you will too.. I'm off to Mass, where you will be in my prayers!



Pax tecum


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

"Apostolic Succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles."



You keep bringing this up about the Apostolic Succession, but you not realize that division, contentions, and falsehoods were already brought in and defiled the true word of God before the Catholic church was even heard of. The first 70+ years already had its fair share of false teachers, deceivers, the spirit of antichrist, and doctrine debates between members of the true Church (body of believers). So to say the Catholic church is the true church, or the only church that has stayed true to His word is false. I was in the Catholic church for 5 years, and took the RCIA classes. I left because of the falsehoods taught in that church. I love my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, but encourage them to read and study the bible carefully, because no man has the authority to change, add, or take away from His words.

 

[mikeuk]

Mikeuk, i have already given you the answer to what "bind and lose" means. If you had read what Dr. J. Vernon McGee said you would have the answer to your question. The problem is you are NOT looking for the answer, instead you are looking for validation for your interpretation of what the answer should be accordingly to the teachings of the corrupted Catholic Church.

.

Spare me the insults -

You conjectured something that simply does not even make sense, let alone explains it, totally inconsistent both with the grammar, let alone Jewish culture which defines those words. If you wish to understand the New Testament first understand the references to Jewish culture and Old Testament.

Be careful who you listen to Ken - at least find an interpretation that makes basic sense. That guy clearly is a bad source! And consider the question of authority - by what authority in the New Testament is Vernon McGee who ever he is empowered? Don't remember his name in my New Testament at least, and that is more than a facetious observation.


It is a pity you did not study RC before leave it, your observations are way off base. Criticise it for what it believes, not the distorted version you seem to have since bought into, hook line and sinker it seems.

 

[notuptome]

Give some specifics, there are 47 Chapters in Kings one and two not counting the twenty eight in Acts.

It's all historic. Genesis being the book of beginnings is the beginning of the history of mankind.

Is that right???? I'd like to see where God says Martin Luther would preserve His word!

Well that comment demonstrates that you read only to criticize and not to learn. God preserves the word of God. Heaven and earth will pass away but not one jot or tittle will pass from the word of God. So you go ahead and steal from God the glory that is His alone.

Lol!! Not burstng my bubble, its not I that has a problem accepting history.

The only version you accept is the distorted version of Rome that glorifies man and robs from God. Good luck with that. That is not the path to pax.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Yet again you do not answer. What specificallly is the power to bind and loose, particularly in matthew 16 and 18?
What is it, who does it, and how is it exercised in your brand of christianity today? You seem to cut that scripture loose, preferring to say who it was not, than say what it is . And that is the problem with protestantism - defined on a negative.
Anything goes so long as it is not the catholic interpretation!

So what do you think it means?

And the wider point I just made - since protestantism is born of endless schisms and fractures in doctrine, when jesus in Matthew 18:17 suggests one stage of disciplinary as you call it, the church has authority to pronounce on a matter of doctrine - how can he have meant one of the endless protestant splinter groups who all believe different things, and would therefore come to different decisions on the same matter?

Despite the condescending attitude you demonstrate I will give you the answer. Matthew 23:1-9. This describes Rome.

You continue to attack the church which is the body of Christ. The church that is catholic is a remnant church. It is composed of born again Christians from every kindred tongue and tribe. It is not a building or golden edifice. It is in the homes and in the dens and caves hunted and persecuted by those who hate Christ.

Repent and be saved lest you perish in your sins.

Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind Me Satan. Matthew 16:23

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[fordman]

You keep bringing this up about the Apostolic Succession, but you not realize that division, contentions, and falsehoods were already brought in and defiled the true word of God before the Catholic church was even heard of.

Yes, and I will continue to bring it up because of its importance, something you seem to have trouble understanding, or flat out dont want, or are afraid to understand. Pride can be a very powerful emotion, it has lead many a man (or woman) astray from the truth.

In past posts you have stated "Christs Church this" or "Christs Church this" . What you fail to mention is that the True Church of Christ is able to distinguish itself from all other claimants, and that it is to be apostolic. In the Letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians it says... "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Eph. 2:19-21).

So you see kenneth, the Church of Christ, must be able to trace her doctrine, her orders, all her mission, to the Apostles of Christ and so ultimately, by Apostolic Succession we mean that Lawful Succession of the hierarchy from the Apostles by means of the Orders validly received while simultaneously having transmitted the same faith of the Apostles. Something not one of the 33,000 differnt Protestant sects (yours included) have never been able to to, or will ever for that matter will be ever to do.

What is interesting kenneth, is that when Protestants look back today and speak of the "early Church" or simply, "the Church," they/you fail to recognize that this "Church" which they/you tacitly assume was one and unified, is none other than the organically connected ancestor of the present-day Catholic Church, which operates on the same principle of apostolic succession. It is the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Faith alone can claim to be that Church as founded by Christ because She alone, has, beyond all doubt, existed in every age, from the present till the Apostolic age. Her pastors are the only pastors on earth, who can trace their mission from priest to bishop, and from bishop to Pope, back through every century, until they trace that mission to the Apostles, who were commissioned by Christ himself. (That is unless you can show proof of your Pastors lineage back to the Apostles.)

The first 70+ years already had its fair share of false teachers, deceivers, the spirit of antichrist, and doctrine debates between members of the true Church (body of believers). So to say the Catholic church is the true church, or the only church that has stayed true to His word is false.

You too keep bringing up this same arguement, but fail to substantiate it with any proof or competent evidence. Are we just supposed to take your word for it? If so, can you assure us/me that your word is absoulte, and without error?

I was in the Catholic church for 5 years, and took the RCIA classes. I left because of the falsehoods taught in that church. I love my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, but encourage them to read and study the bible carefully, because no man has the authority to change, add, or take away from His words.

What falsehoods are you speaking of? Who was it in the Catholic Church, and what are the words that were supposedly changed/added or taken away from His word? Once again, please substantiate your claim with some sort of proof or competent evidence that is imprimatur.

Or could it be you are you talking about the father of Protestatism? Martin Luther (and the JW's NWT) are the only ones I know of that have changed/added/ or taken away from the Bible.



Pax tecum


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

 

[mikeuk]

Yet more waffle.

For the cause of Roger

You do not have an answer - no idea of the meaning of bind and loose, just so long as you disagree with the catholic version.

And in that waffle, please note and as I pointed out before, RC defines the church as people of god, body of Christ.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, and I will continue to bring it up because of its importance, something you seem to have trouble understanding, or flat out dont want, or are afraid to understand. Pride can be a very powerful emotion, it has lead many a man (or woman) astray from the truth.

In past posts you have stated "Christs Church this" or "Christs Church this" . What you fail to mention is that the True Church of Christ is able to distinguish itself from all other claimants, and that it is to be apostolic. In the Letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians it says... "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Eph. 2:19-21).

So you see kenneth, the Church of Christ, must be able to trace her doctrine, her orders, all her mission, to the Apostles of Christ and so ultimately, by Apostolic Succession we mean that Lawful Succession of the hierarchy from the Apostles by means of the Orders validly received while simultaneously having transmitted the same faith of the Apostles. Something not one of the 33,000 differnt Protestant sects (yours included) have never been able to to, or will ever for that matter will be ever to do.

What is interesting kenneth, is that when Protestants look back today and speak of the "early Church" or simply, "the Church," they/you fail to recognize that this "Church" which they/you tacitly assume was one and unified, is none other than the organically connected ancestor of the present-day Catholic Church, which operates on the same principle of apostolic succession. It is the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Faith alone can claim to be that Church as founded by Christ because She alone, has, beyond all doubt, existed in every age, from the present till the Apostolic age. Her pastors are the only pastors on earth, who can trace their mission from priest to bishop, and from bishop to Pope, back through every century, until they trace that mission to the Apostles, who were commissioned by Christ himself. (That is unless you can show proof of your Pastors lineage back to the Apostles.)
You too keep bringing up this same arguement, but fail to substantiate it with any proof or competent evidence. Are we just supposed to take your word for it? If so, can you assure us/me that your word is absoulte, and without error?



What falsehoods are you speaking of? Who was it in the Catholic Church, and what are the words that were supposedly changed/added or taken away from His word? Once again, please substantiate your claim with some sort of proof or competent evidence that is imprimatur.

Or could it be you are you talking about the father of Protestatism? Martin Luther (and the JW's NWT) are the only ones I know of that have changed/added/ or taken away from the Bible.



Pax tecum


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

No how Christ's true Church distinguishes itself is by how its members walk in love, not in a apostolic succession. That would be more lies by the catholic church.
I am non-denominational and walk in faith and love of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so do many others who are not in the catholic church. That alone makes them part of the true Church of the Lord, not rather they believe in a apostolic succession or not as that has no bearing on one's salvation.
The proof is in the bible on the divisions, debates, and contentions among members in the early church bible days. If you have not seen that in scriptures then that shows you need to read the scriptures more as the bible clearly says this. Paul called out Peter for false teachers leading the Galatians astray, warned Timothy and other followers of the day of false teaching going on. Paul showed how members were picking and choosing who they wanted to follow, and arguing among each others on who they obey and follow; I am of Apollos and so on....
Paul and John spoke of how the spirit of antichrist was already in the world deceiving others.
This was all within the first 70+ years of the early church before catholicism was even heard of, and Constantine brought in other changes. I will just give you a few that the catholic church does against what the Lord commanded; 1st they gave themselves titles as father and pope, putting themselves in place of Him and being called what He specifically said not to. 2nd nowhere does He say we have to go to a priest to confess our sins and do hail marry's or our fathers to be forgiven, as all we have to do is go in prayer directly to Him in Jesus name confessing our sins and we will be forgiven. 3rd the latest thing they have done is allowing Christians and non-Christians (Muslims) worship together. Allowing unbelievers of Christ to worship side by side with them in the churches. Many of popes have stated they have authority to put in place things that are not in the bible, even if they change or contradict. Paul clearly says no man will have this authority....

 

[KenAllan]

Dr. J. Vernon McGee has Authority from the Holy Spirit to interpret and teach the meanings of Scriptures. Also he has a Doctorate in theology. Where is your doctorate in theology?

Where is your authority to teach otherwise? I do not see your name in the New Testament either. Also i do not see any of the names of the Popes in the New testament either. Also Peter was never a Pope of the Catholic Church because Peter was long dead before the corrupted Catholic Church was ever created.

Mikeuk, you are a fool. Like i said before its a waste of time to argue with you because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot understand Spiritual things from God. You are what God called a so-called brother, a tare among the Wheat in the Church.

I feel sorry for you. Eternity in Heaven is not for you. At least not until you turn around and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Mikeuk you really need to repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You cannot claim to be a Christian because i know for a fact that you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit rejects the Truths in the Bible from the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 1:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP] because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

In Colossians God tells us the Gospel IS the Word of Truth, yet you and the Catholic Church rejects the Truth from God.

This is why i know for a fact that you have never received Salvation and do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Since you do not have the Holy Spirit and have not received Salvation you have no Truth in you. This is why you cannot understand what the "Keys and bind and lose" means in the Scriptures.

 

[mikeuk]

Spare me the ad hominems and anticatholic nonsense, either you want a debate or you do not.
I could throw all the same quotations back at you, and they are equally useless, so I will not insult you with them.

Dr. J. Vernon McGee has Authority from the Holy Spirit to interpret and teach the meanings of Scriptures. Also he has a Doctorate in theology. Where is your doctorate in theology?

You mean Dr Vernon McGee SAID he had the authority of the spirit, yet you look at the debate on this forum on any issue, and all of those partaking in those debates will say that they discerned the spirit too. So since there are not opposing answers to doctrine both true, then caliming to have the spirit on your side without authority is a bankrupt claim.

There are hundreds and thousands of equally or better qualified professors who disagree with him, I have read their books, and others from protestant standpoint, who also claim they discerned the spirit, so he is just one voice in many

And by virtue of the fact of mutually exclusive views on this forum between protestants take OSAS or once saved, but can lose it, and both are argued equally voraciously. Scripture can therefore have alternative interpretations. So where then is the authority in either.

Calvin and Luther are both reformers who disagree with each other profoundly. Which one is right? You seem to ignore a serious issue! Bind and loose are the terms that judaism uses to settle disputes on interpretation of law. At least Luther has a point he can argue, that yes it was peter in origin, but what of the succession! That case is easier to argue than the silly version of Mcgee. As I pointed out, his interpretation does not even make grammatical sense, so VMcgee does not even make the basic threshold!

HIs interpretation does not even pass the "kiddie test" If I gave the scripture - verses before and after of matthew 16 to a group of kids

"Thou art peter and on this rock (yes they are the same word in aramaic!) I will build my church...give the keys..what you bind on earth etc"

If I asked 100 kids, who had never heard of peter or the apostles so were not biassed like Mr Mcgee and asked them "who is given the keys, on who is built the church , who is given the power to bind" ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTTION would say it is Peter, because that is what the words say.! It is only protestant determination to make those things mean other than Peter, that there was ever an argument.

Do you really think Jesus would leave the true church to splinter into 10000 pieces of different doctrine as protestants are post reformation where everyone gets to have their own view like Vernon Mcgee? The mark of a true church is constancy of doctrine over millenia. Only one denomination can claim that. I follow the teaching of the magisterium handed down throughout generations, so my name is not in the book, nor does it need to be, but peter and his succession is.

 

[RuggedFaith]

Jesus said, "Here I am! I stand at the door of your heart and knock. If you hear My voice and open the door,
I will come in...(Revelation 3:20)

A Prayer for Everyone

JESUS, be merciful to me a sinner. Come into my heart and life and be my LORD and Saviour. Create in me
a new heart that desires to follow you all the days of my life. Draw me close to You in prayers of faith and
confession of my sins. Teach me eternal wisdom that I may grow in faith for Your Word is truth. LORD,
You alone are the Holy One, Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father.
By faith I pray, Amen.

To enter heaven eternally you must have the kingdom of heaven within you. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth,
no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to your spirit. 'You must be born again spiritually.' "
(John 3:5-7)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -
not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[RuggedFaith]

Jesus said, "Here I am! I stand at the door of your heart and knock.
If you heart My voice and open the door, I will come in...(Revelation 3:20)

A Prayer For Everyone

JESUS, be merciful to me a sinner. Come into my heart and life and
be my LORD and Saviour. Create in me a new heart that desires to
follow You all the days of my life. Draw me close to You in Prayers
of Faith, and confession of my sins. Teach me eternal wisdom that
I may grow in faith for Your Word is truth. LORD, You alone are the
Holy One, Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory
of God the Father. By faith I pray, Amen.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not
from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one
can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Love from above is HIS Word and Will ... so we will love and respect one another.

 

[KenAllan]

Yes it is true the rock in Matthew is both the same word in Aramaic, BUT the Scriptures were written in Greek! The two rocks in that verse are two different words in Greek. You have to understand that the message of Salvation was to the gentiles who spoke Greek, not Aramaic.

Jesus Christ IS God and He created all the languages that the people spoke in the World. Since Jesus Christ created all the Languages why would He limit Himself only to Aramaic? Your argument for Aramaic only falls flat on its face.

Until you receive Salvation and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand what the Holy Spirit says in the Bible.

Where in the Bible does the Holy Spirit claim you can lose your Salvation? You do know that salvation is based on our Faith that Jesus Christ is God and Grace from God. To lose one's salvation you need to reject Jesus Christ and believe that He is not God. Therefore once you have lost your Salvation you can never received it again.

The problem is that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" has Faith that Jesus Christ is God. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is a True Christian. Read Matthew 7:21-23 and see what Jesus Christ says to the Tares in the Church. God does talk about so-called brothers and Tares in the Church who are not His children but instead are children of Satan.

The Catholic Church today is filled to overflowing with Tares and so-called brothers.

 

[mikeuk]

Yes it is true the rock in Matthew is both the same word in Aramaic, BUT the Scriptures were written in Greek! The two rocks in that verse are two different words in Greek. You have to understand that the message of Salvation was to the gentiles who spoke Greek, not Aramaic.

Jesus Christ IS God and He created all the languages that the people spoke in the World. Since Jesus Christ created all the Languages why would He limit Himself only to Aramaic? Your argument for Aramaic only falls flat on its face.

.

Ken.

The conversation took place in aramaic, whether or not it was then translated for a greek audiencethere can have been no distinction, which was for literary effect. A matter of history. (do you ignore history now you have bought into sola scriptura?).

Indeed to prove the point he said Simon "bar jonah" which is a description (not a name) in aramaic, and nothing to do with greek. Sure jesus could have spoken any language - ancient japanese if you like - but not if he wanted a simple fisherman to understand him, which will have been aramaic!


Indeed if you knew the historical setting of that conversation (sorry - I forgot you do not now do history) you would know precisely why he said peter was the rock on which he built is church, as a contrast to the location where it took place.

It all makes sense if you accept history which is a part of tradition.

Until you receive Salvation and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand what the Holy Spirit says in the Bible.
.

Here ends our conversation. You have no basis on which to state that is so, and I tire of the presumption.


Indeed I travelled your road before, and dont worry for me, if that stuff you preach is true, I am already "saved" in the context you think it means from time in an evangelical sect until I discovered none of what they said actually made sense.

Neither did I find answers talking to cradle catholics either, most like you had not studied their faith, nor can explain it, and some of what they do is not to catechism giving the rest a bad name. But those people do not define catholicism, the catechism does.. I did find the answers in the catechism and the church fathers, and a lot of very well qualified scholars who as a result went from ardent anticatholics to join RCC. Indeed the more you study history, the less protestant you can be in my opinion. I am not forcing that down anyones throat as the evangelicals do.

My suggestion is you play on the safe side now you promote this unsupportable "fast food notion" of salvation (as in McGees tenets of the faith at church of the open door) I suggest you also do the myriad of things you are actually asked to do for eternal life. Like obey the commandments Luke 18:20 or works of mercy Matthew 25:41, since they are not as Mcgee would have it just things that might incur displeasure or whatever rot Mcgee wrote, Jesus said they are needed for salvation, and I would rather believe him not either of you!

But that is my last word to you Ken. All those verses you throw at me, I could easily throw back at you - so why do you insult me so?.

You have left RCC for all the wrong reasons, and have bought into a lot of anti RCC myths not even really knowing what it stood for or why.

I studied your side of the fence for years, indeed saw the same arguments used, discovering one by one they were phony. I hope you do in time as well.

I ask you again to consider one thing. If protestantism is the true church , why does it fracture into millions of bits, with everyone making their own version up. Including mr mcgee! Who left Presbyterian ism , to launch his version on the world instead, so assuming the role of arbiter of doctrine , adopting the very position that he so abhors in the pope! The reason for the endless fractures is lack of authority. The mark of the true church is consistency of doctrine over millenia, and only one denomination can even be candidate for that.

 

[prodigal]

............

 

[GaryA]

Have you never heard of [/I]Apostolic succession? Apostolic Succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles.

There is no such thing as "Apostolic succession" - for, there were no more Apostles after the original ones - i.e., there was only one "generation" of Apostles.

The type of [ valid ] "succession" that I believe in is illustrated very nicely in a publication by J.M. CARROLL called "The Trail of Blood"...

 

[Jeff_56]

so, how to obey scripture here? the roman heretics who won't cease their sinning after one or two admonitions, are supposed to be not associated with at all, until and IF they repent and turn to yahweh in yahshua for forgiveveness and willingly (and JOYFULLY) cease their, if ever.
.....

the lie, the heretics call truth. the truth, the heretics call hate. they cannot be helped when they continue.

and as the site rules say, they are not supposed to promote heresy here. but they continue to sometimes openly, sometimes 'secretly'.

as it
is written of heretics and the apostate :
[SUP]"15......[/SUP] to those who are defiled and without trust, nothing is pure — even their minds and consciences have been defiled. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They claim to know God, but with their actions they deny him. They are detestable and disobedient; they have proved themselves unfit to do anything good."
and as applies to the heresy:
[SUP]"11 [/SUP]They must be silenced; because they are upsetting entire households by teaching what they have no business teaching, and doing it for the sake of dishonest gain." (the heresy destroys men's souls)