Crushing Defeat: Ukranians flee separatists; Putin mocks cease-fire

[Skinski7]

Epic fail, Skin. The first is a Gallup survey of news viewing habits of the average Ukrainian both nationwide and specifically in the Crimea. Nothing about political viewpoint of any consequence.

The second is a survey of sociopolitical attitudes of the average Ukrainian and they read very much like a survey of U.S. voters. In Crimea, the top issues were unemployment (68%), price controls (50%), low industrial output, tied with concern for government corruption (both 37%), and welfare protection for the poor (36%). In Ukraine in general, it was just about the same, though welfare protection was third on their list, and only 21% were concerned about government corruption.

Not surprisingly, most Ukrainians, including those in Crimea, in 2013 -- the date of your second linked survey -- said that Crimea should remain as it was then, an autonomous region within the Ukraine. A third -- and not at all surprisingly, almost all over 50, said it should be either independent, or given back to Russia. That isn't because they like Russia, it is because they are afraid of Russia, even those in Crimea.

Your links prove nothing you've stated. In fact, they aren't even related to your charges of fascism in Ukraine's government.

Do you even think before you read and write?

It is not epic fail to show two polls which clearly demonstrate what the people in Crimea and the east of Ukraine actually believe. They were pro-Russian before the conflict and pro-Russian afterwards.

The main difference is that before they were quite happy to remain part of Ukraine before the events of Maiden. That attitude changed due to the violence.

As I have said before and I will say it again, it doesn't seem too many people in the west actually care what the people who live there on the ground actually think, that is a tragedy.

 

[Skinski7]

If the Crimean people want to be part of Russia then I say let them.

The blood has not run in Crimea yet. Yet that might change if Kiev or the US gets its way.

How arrogant it is for us in the West to say, "yeah Maiden is legitimate" but "anti-maiden is not." Utter hypocrisy.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Do you even think before you read and write?

I read the whole thing, unlike you, Skin, and I read it with understanding. You do realize that, of the 29.6 million people in Ukraine, only 7 million are ethnic Russian, don't you. So your percentages are worthless. It doesn't ...

... clearly demonstrate what the people in Crimea and the east of Ukraine actually believe...

... because you haven't used a number to tell us what the percentages mean. As I said, "epic fail." And it still is.

 

[Skinski7]

I read the whole thing, unlike you, Skin, and I read it with understanding. You do realize that, of the 29.6 million people in Ukraine, only 7 million are ethnic Russian, don't you. So your percentages are worthless. It doesn't ...

... because you haven't used a number to tell us what the percentages mean. As I said, "epic fail." And it still is.

The ethnic Russian people are mainly located in the eastern part of the country.

The percentages are not worthless at all. Those percentages show how the people in different parts of the country feel.

Anti-Maiden rose up in the east, not the west of Ukraine. It is the east which rebelled and it is the east which is predominantly Russian speaking. One cannot just ignore that. Ukraine was similar to Switzerland in the sense that different regions speak different languages. In Switzerland the North speak Suisser Deutshch (a German dialect), the Southwest speak French, the Southeast speak Italian, and a few areas speak Romansch. One cannot just put all the people in one bucket, geography has to be taken into account.

Here is a video which explains it better...

[video=youtube;Z6Kn1reJt9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Kn1reJt9Y[/video]

I hope you watch it. She may not take into account how a vote can be divided but her basic explanation is sound.

 

[firstaider_2010]

hi
so who shot down MH 17 ? the Russians or the Ukrainians..
best wishes
firstaider ( from Malaysia)

 

[Skinski7]

Here is a video of where Andrei Vysota, the Commander of the 25th "Kievan Rus" Battalion explains how they retreated from Debaltseve.

This video shows the true state of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and how both their command and the administration are lying through their teeth. Remember President Poroshenko himself declared that Debaltseve was NEVER surrounded and that the withdrawal was purely tactical and only cost the lives of EIGHT soldiers. The United States is supporting a government in Ukraine which is so detached from reality it simply boggles the mind. With each passing day the lies just keep stacking up.

[video=youtube;wQUvueRQNQk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQUvueRQNQk#t=221[/video]

I don't know how anyone could watch the above video and then believe a single word that either the U.S. or the Ukrainian government say about the Ukraine conflict.

Pretty much the exact same thing occurred at the Donetsk Airport. The DPR had taken the airport around the 16th of January yet the UAF kept sending conscripts unprepared to their deaths while claiming that they still controlled the airport. The whole thing clearly put Public Relations at a higher level of importance than the lives of the soldiers in the field. The Ukrainian government does not care about its soldiers and that is why there is video after video after video of captured soldiers with stories of how they were lied to and even forced to go on suicide missions. This whole war is insane and it needs to stop.

Here are some examples of such stories...

Wounded soldier APU Basil for several days in the hospital undergoing treatment Alchevsk. In an interview LifeNews young man told me that the leadership of staff forced him to fight. In case of default order of the commander threatened to kill the family of a young man.

Раненый боец ВСУ признался, что его заставляли воевать - Первый по срочным новостям — LIFE | NEWS

UAF soldiers speak of "Barrier Squads" whom would shoot anyone attempting to retreat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9xczCg9SHU

UAF soldiers testify how they were deceived by being sent to pick up wounded at Donetsk Airport and then once en route they were told that they were actually attacking. Their whole unit was wiped out save for a few survivors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQP_OJ9bm0

Here is an example from last year of UAF commander who is facing 10 years in prison for trying to save the lives of his men for refusing to obey an order.
Комбат "Прикарпатья" Виталий Комар: "Если бы я привез домой гору трупов, наверное, был бы героем" - Газета

 

[Skinski7]

hi
so who shot down MH 17 ? the Russians or the Ukrainians..
best wishes
firstaider ( from Malaysia)

There is currently an ongoing investigation and I think we need to wait for the results.

My speculation would be that separatists shot it down mistaking it for a UAF aircraft. There is testimony which came out BEFORE MH17 was shot down that the UAF were using commercial airliners as cover before they would bomb their targets.

It is also possible that it was shot down intentionally as a provocative action to demonise those fighting in Donbass.

A question that ought to be asked though is what were commercial airliners doing flying over Ukraine when the UAF were using aircraft in attacks in the conflict. That is just asking for a tragedy to occur. That airspace should clearly have been a no fly zone for commercial aircraft.




Note: Some weird formatting glitch above which deleted my final note.

Don't get me wrong there are no good guys here, there is evil on both sides of this conflict. Evil often comes with a smiley face in both politics and the churches. Let us not be deceived.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The ethnic Russian people are mainly located in the eastern part of the country.

Look, you are displaying a western understanding of Ukraine and you can't understand Ukraine that way. Right now, my stepson's girlfriend is trapped in a small village outside the proposed "safe passage" corridor which has never actually been allowed to take hold, from Debaltseve to Kiev. I know Ukraine not only through the two of them, but from my own military-political assignments during my career in the U.S. Army.

Russia is unable to see Ukraine as anything other than a usurper of Russian territory. The ethnic Russian population, and all of Russia, thinks of Ukraine as an oblast and nothing else. The fact is, it’s very difficult for many Russians to disentangle their own history from Ukraine’s and acknowledge the equality and legitimacy of the Ukrainian culture alongside their own. The problem is, most of Ukraine has seen itself as an independent nation since 1922, though forced into servitude as a Russian "consultant republic" for 69 years, until the Soviet empire fell in 1991.

I watched your film. The woman would not be considered "Ukrainian" by most Ukrainians. She's ethnic Russian. Her accent gives her away. She slants the "truth" from her ethnic and familial beliefs. The vast majority of Ukraine sees itself as an independent nation, and views Russia as a thug, a usurper, an enslaver, and they want no part of Russia.

If you want a truly historical and ethnic understanding of the situation in Ukraine, I would urge you to read this article on the Harvard Summer School website, entitled The Russian-Ukraine Conflict: An Historical Perspective

Stop listening to the corrupt communists. They are lying to you. The corruption in Kiev is of concern, obviously, but standing in comparison to the rest of Europe, they are no worse than any of those countries. The Ukraine deserves to be given the chance to stand on its own. Putin needs to get his puppet-soldiers out of the east and let the country live.

 

[Skinski7]

I watched your film. The woman would not be considered "Ukrainian" by most Ukrainians. She's ethnic Russian. Her accent gives her away. She slants the "truth" from her ethnic and familial beliefs. The vast majority of Ukraine sees itself as an independent nation, and views Russia as a thug, a usurper, an enslaver, and they want no part of Russia.

What you just said sounds EXACTLY like something that the Right Sector would say.

They want the "ethnic Russians" to get out because they don't consider them Ukrainian either.

Would you be jumping too?

[video=youtube;tBSQVkXXQOs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBSQVkXXQOs[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

January 29, 2015
[video=youtube;7Ux4W5tU87U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux4W5tU87U[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

November 28, 2013
[video=youtube;bMITXQuvURk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMITXQuvURk[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

[video=youtube;XtKZBjJdORY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtKZBjJdORY[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSGPpqdHRUw

 

[Skinski7]

Ukraine Ethnicity Map


Ukraine Conflict Map

I watched your film. The woman would not be considered "Ukrainian" by most Ukrainians. She's ethnic Russian. Her accent gives her away. She slants the "truth" from her ethnic and familial beliefs.

[video=youtube;Z6Kn1reJt9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Kn1reJt9Y[/video]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Skin ...

1) Your map in that last post proves my point.

2) Repeating a propaganda piece still makes it propaganda, not truth

3)

What you just said sounds EXACTLY like something that the Right Sector would say.

Whether it does or not, it's still true. Regardless of what they want ethnic Russians to do, the opinion of ethnic Russians doesn't change. They consider Ukraine a Russian oblast -- province. That opinion is worthless, given the rest of the world regards Ukraine as an independent nation, and has for three generations.

 

[Skinski7]

Skin ...

1) Your map in that last post proves my point.

2) Repeating a propaganda piece still makes it propaganda, not truth

3) Whether it does or not, it's still true. Regardless of what they want ethnic Russians to do, the opinion of ethnic Russians doesn't change. They consider Ukraine a Russian oblast -- province. That opinion is worthless, given the rest of the world regards Ukraine as an independent nation, and has for three generations.

No wonder you don't appear to show any compassion for the people of Donbass. The fact that you can write off the opinions of a whole region of people merely based on their ethnicity is a real shame.

Ukraine was in effect a "Russian oblast" until the fall of the USSR. It then became an independent nation consisting of diverse cultural regions. Much like Switzerland is today with the German, Italian, French and Romansch areas, all with their own distinctive cultural identities, yet they live together in peace.

The people in Ukraine lived together in peace before Maiden. The people in the east where quite happy to be Ukrainian. The lady in the video even calls herself Ukrainian and she is, just because she is ethnically Russian is no reason to claim she isn't. How arrogant you are. If that is the attitude of many in western Ukraine no wonder the people in the east wanted independence. You treat them with utter disdain simply because of their ethnicity. I would want to be independent of such arrogance too.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

No wonder you don't appear to show any compassion for the people of Donbass. The fact that you can write off the opinions of a whole region of people merely based on their ethnicity is a real shame.

A comment that totally ignores the fact those people of Russian ethnicity totally write off Ukraine as a valid independent nation, and apparently you do, too, which explains your irrational support of a Russian takeover of Ukraine.

Ukraine was in effect a "Russian oblast" until the fall of the USSR.

And Poland was a client-state and conquered territory of Nazi Germany. So was France, most of Belgium, and all of Eastern Europe. That didn't negate their claim to being sovereign nations, it simply made Nazi Germany an international criminal. So was Soviet Russia.

It then became an independent nation ...

Stop right there. Regardless of the fact it "consist[ed] of diverse cultural regions," that is the key statement right there. It is an independent sovereign nation and as such does not deserve to be divided up by any nation -- for example, Russia -- which claims to have "historical rights by virtue of the ethnic peoples" of Ukraine to any of Ukraine's territory. Your admission that it is an independent nation negates any other point you might attempt to make as to why the Russian initiative is "right" or legal.

Russia is attempting to usurp territory and governance of another sovereign nation! What part of that do you find so hard to understand? They have no right to do so. The ethnic Germans, the ethnic Italians, the ethnic Austrians are all perfectly happy being Ukrainians. If the ethnic Russians of Ukraine want to be part of Russia, let 'em move east!

 

[Skinski7]

Vigilante...

You are living in an alternative reality. This "Ukraine must remain united at all costs" idea ended the moment Kiev began shelling civilians in the beginning of the so called anti-terrorist operation.

Too much blood has been spilled. Too many lies have been spoken. Too many atrocities have taken place.

There is a country now called Novorossia and that is the actual reality. Ongoing conflict in the name of "Ukraine must remain united at all costs" is only going to yield more blood, more atrocities, more suffering, and FOR WHAT? For the sake of some "united Ukraine at all costs"? I think human life is worth more than that, it is a shame that many others don't think so.

Do you really think these people want to see more blood spilled for the sake of a "united Ukraine at all costs'?

(context of video is Poroshenko's cancellation of Defender of the Fatherland Day" where these people are asked if the day should be celebrated and if Ukraine should buddy up with NATO to solve the problems in the east of the country.)
[video=youtube;uqlUrm2oaDE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqlUrm2oaDE[/video]

Of course they are likely "ethnic Russians" so in your view what they think doesn't count. You have clearly lost an ability to empathise and reason (in regards to the Donbass anyway) and thus there is no real need to discuss it any further. The simple fact that you wrote that lady off in the video I posted earlier as "not being a real Ukrainian" simply because of her ethnicity just goes to show that you would be in good company amongst the Right Sector radical nationalists. Get jumping.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Vigilante...

You are living in an alternative reality. This "Ukraine must remain united at all costs" idea ended the moment Kiev began shelling civilians in the beginning of the so called anti-terrorist operation.

If you're going to keep shilling for the corrupt Putin tyranny, I'm going to bypass your posts as massive wastes of time, and irrational irritations of trillions of electrons. Maybe someone will let me know if you ever overcome your delusions.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

There is a country now called Novorossia and that is the actual reality.

no there is not a country called 'novorossia'...there is a region of ukraine that was infiltrated by russian fascists and other putin puppets who had no business representing anyone in ukraine...and who set up their own illegal barbaric fiefdom which they rule over by gunpoint with the help of russian weapons and foreign invaders...

it is ironic that you keep accusing the ukrainian government of being beholden to neo nazis while you are promoting putin's ideology that the ethnic russians and russian speakers in ukraine need the protection of russia and their interests would be better served under russian dominance...because that is exactly the same argument hitler used about ethnic germans and german speakers during his own violent expansionism...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

A question that ought to be asked though is what were commercial airliners doing flying over Ukraine when the UAF were using aircraft in attacks in the conflict. That is just asking for a tragedy to occur. That airspace should clearly have been a no fly zone for commercial aircraft.

so even if russia's separatist puppets shot down the airliner then it wasn't really their fault?

i guess russia and its puppets are never responsible for their own actions any more...at least in your world...