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S
I don't believe the Scriptural evidence supports he changed his name from Saul to Paul. When did it happen? He is referred to as Saul for a few chapters in Acts after the Damascus experience. It clearly states he was also known as Paul. The scholarly claim is that he, like many Jews of the diaspora, had two names: a Hebrew and Greek name.
S
"Law keepers" do make good attempts to follow all aspects of the Law, just as the Messiah walked. In that sense, it's probably better to think of them as "Messiah followers" instead of "Law keepers." It doesn't happen overnight though, it's a process of being reformed in the Messiah with regards to God's will. And if a "Law keeper" isn't keeping some particular aspect of the Law which one thinks is necessary for consistency in their walk, then one should bring it up to them out of genuineness and not a "gotcha" attitude (not saying that's what you are doing now). Certain ones of the Pharisees were "gotcha" sorta people when they confronted the Messiah, as with the case of the woman in adultery. That's not how we should be toward each other. And you'll hopefully get a good reason from the person about why they don't keep that particular aspect of the Law, which is sometimes rooted in the accuser's misunderstanding of the command or its applicability, if not the "Law keeper" not being to that point in their walk yet.
S
They are all a witness to what God has done and what the Messiah has done/will do. In that sense, keeping them is a very faithful serving of others in love. Also, the Messiah said the greatest command is to love God, the second is to love the neighbor. Keeping the feasts is done also out of love for God because He said to do them. They are His. They're not "Jewish." We should be careful how we tend to (or in popular Christianity, ignore) the things that belong to and are from the Almighty.
S
If this is true, which there seems to be enough scholarly consensus around it or similar claims, then this is a good example of why God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Some of His children are reading these verses, filling in their own understanding and not knowing the actual truth of the matter, and then using them as part of an argument to undermine keeping God's will as expressed in His commands.
I think it's really simple on beards and trimmings: these verses are about doing these things in a particular way with respect to pagan deities. God doesn't want His children to do that, the Messiah didn't do it, we shouldn't do it.
I think it's really simple on beards and trimmings: these verses are about doing these things in a particular way with respect to pagan deities. God doesn't want His children to do that, the Messiah didn't do it, we shouldn't do it.
B
The issue isn't legalism as much as it is spiritual adultery.
If you are in Christ, you have died to the Law in order to be joined to another, Christ, so that you may bear fruit unto God.
Note that you have to die to the Law in order to bear fruit unto God in Christ.
When you flirt with the Law (which is all you are really doing), you are committing spiritual adultery.
More here:
-JGIG
What does the rest of Romans 7 say though?
B
According to the rest of Romans 7 it neither says the law is done away with nor a sin to follow. The law just makes you aware of what sin is. Which in 1 John 3 it states, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." So to me, again you can interpret how ever you want to, to me based off of these parts of scripture it is not wrong to follow the law.
Now there are wrong ways to follow it, such as if you add to it make it into something it's not.
Now there are wrong ways to follow it, such as if you add to it make it into something it's not.
Galatians 2:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Wrong ways and right ways to follow the law???
Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
The justified in Christ live by faith in Him. The law is not about that faith in Christ. The law is merely a schoolmaster to bring you to the faith in Christ.
If you are still following the law, if you are still striving in that yoke, shouldn't you look at your faith in Christ and find out what went wrong? Or would you rather stay stiffnecked like the children before you who followed the same law? I wish so much I could present this in a way you could see. But only the Lord Jesus Christ can show you. If you already think you know then there isn't any room to ask the One who actually does. That's the worst thing about the error of the pharisees.
Remember the prayer of the pharisee and the publican? Can you spot the legalist?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Wrong ways and right ways to follow the law???
Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
The justified in Christ live by faith in Him. The law is not about that faith in Christ. The law is merely a schoolmaster to bring you to the faith in Christ.
If you are still following the law, if you are still striving in that yoke, shouldn't you look at your faith in Christ and find out what went wrong? Or would you rather stay stiffnecked like the children before you who followed the same law? I wish so much I could present this in a way you could see. But only the Lord Jesus Christ can show you. If you already think you know then there isn't any room to ask the One who actually does. That's the worst thing about the error of the pharisees.
Remember the prayer of the pharisee and the publican? Can you spot the legalist?
S
Whatever you think I have admitted, I most certainly have not. I did not admit it's "just an attempt at best," nor did I intend to imply anything that would frame my point in such a diminishing way, nor did I support whatever point you're trying to make. Since that is not what I implied or intended, my words shouldn't be misappropriated and misapplied in that way. It's an internet forum and we all make these mistakes about misreading posts, so we can move on from that now that I have made it clear that I did not admit that.
The "attempt" I was talking about is fundamentally no different from the walk of all God's children. We are all doing what we can to live out God's will. Once saved, we are not puppets on strings or mindless robots. We still have our mind, will, and emotions, and we make daily choices about our attitudes and actions. Sometimes we make good ones and sometimes we make bad ones. Our walk of faith in the Spirit is about being conformed to the mind of the Messiah, identifying sinful behavior and repenting thereof, and identifying how to walk in love. It doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen by sitting on our duff and doing absolutely nothing. We are exhorted to study the Scriptures, test messages, and grow. This takes conscious effort, which is easily observable by just watching any body of believers.
The matter I was addressing was a practical one of hypocrisy: Do self-claimed "Law keepers" consider all aspects of the Torah-Law or ignore certain aspects of it? The example cited throughout this thread has been dealing with the commands regarding head trimmings and beards. Is a "Law keeper" a hypocrite when they keep from adultery, keep from lying, keep from murdering, keep kosher, keep the sabbath, keep the feasts, etc., but then when they come across such commands about head trimmings and beards, they are seemingly ignoring these commands as evidenced by their hair cuts and shaved face? My response is no, they are not hypocrites. It could be that they haven't got to this point in their walk to consider these verses. Or they aren't yet well learned enough to properly understand the application of these commands in context. Or the problem could be with the accuser: they may not be properly understanding the commands or their applicability.
Either way, the "Law keepers" heart still desirse to follow God's will for their lives, and this is the "attempt" I was referencing: this process of growth. Growth is not a futile attempt. But your reframing of my words seems to imply that it is futile if one makes any attempt to reference God's revelation in the front of the book. We are "attempting" to follow the Messiah, the same as any other Christian, and this "attempt" is not futile. The difference between us is that we recognize that the Messiah kept the Torah-Law faithfully, as it is an expression of God's holiness and His will, and we believe that to follow the Messiah is connected to that will as expressed in the commands. If God's will wasn't in the commands, then the Messiah wouldn't have made that His manner of life and His walk. So we live to follow God's will, not simply a corpus of laws, but the Life that the Messiah expressed in His obedience to the Father's will.
So again, I prefer something like "Messiah followers" over "Law keepers," but I understand the purpose in employing the latter term. Thank you.
The "attempt" I was talking about is fundamentally no different from the walk of all God's children. We are all doing what we can to live out God's will. Once saved, we are not puppets on strings or mindless robots. We still have our mind, will, and emotions, and we make daily choices about our attitudes and actions. Sometimes we make good ones and sometimes we make bad ones. Our walk of faith in the Spirit is about being conformed to the mind of the Messiah, identifying sinful behavior and repenting thereof, and identifying how to walk in love. It doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen by sitting on our duff and doing absolutely nothing. We are exhorted to study the Scriptures, test messages, and grow. This takes conscious effort, which is easily observable by just watching any body of believers.
The matter I was addressing was a practical one of hypocrisy: Do self-claimed "Law keepers" consider all aspects of the Torah-Law or ignore certain aspects of it? The example cited throughout this thread has been dealing with the commands regarding head trimmings and beards. Is a "Law keeper" a hypocrite when they keep from adultery, keep from lying, keep from murdering, keep kosher, keep the sabbath, keep the feasts, etc., but then when they come across such commands about head trimmings and beards, they are seemingly ignoring these commands as evidenced by their hair cuts and shaved face? My response is no, they are not hypocrites. It could be that they haven't got to this point in their walk to consider these verses. Or they aren't yet well learned enough to properly understand the application of these commands in context. Or the problem could be with the accuser: they may not be properly understanding the commands or their applicability.
Either way, the "Law keepers" heart still desirse to follow God's will for their lives, and this is the "attempt" I was referencing: this process of growth. Growth is not a futile attempt. But your reframing of my words seems to imply that it is futile if one makes any attempt to reference God's revelation in the front of the book. We are "attempting" to follow the Messiah, the same as any other Christian, and this "attempt" is not futile. The difference between us is that we recognize that the Messiah kept the Torah-Law faithfully, as it is an expression of God's holiness and His will, and we believe that to follow the Messiah is connected to that will as expressed in the commands. If God's will wasn't in the commands, then the Messiah wouldn't have made that His manner of life and His walk. So we live to follow God's will, not simply a corpus of laws, but the Life that the Messiah expressed in His obedience to the Father's will.
So again, I prefer something like "Messiah followers" over "Law keepers," but I understand the purpose in employing the latter term. Thank you.
So those who are Messianic are "better" than those who dedicate themselves to Christ without the messianic customs, according to what you have just written. It always goes back to that. The messianic followers are always "more righteous, more led by God, more zealous for God, more enlightened, more obedient", and so forth, I can go on and on, this is what you guys believe, than us common Jesus followers... and you on top of it say that we judge your walk... I'll stop there... may God open your eyes that all are equal in Christ...
B
I think you're missing my point. My point on the matter is it's not sinful to follow the law. Following the law as a means of salvation, I'd say that's a sin. And I see no "yoke" in my walk. It's not a burden to me that I follow it. I don't walk in the law to try and put myself above others, I walk in it because believe or not it's a good lifestyle. It's doesn't mean I'm walking without faith in Yeshua, because I do have faith in Him as my Lord and Savior. Also you're implying that I follow the law to justify what Yeshua did, and I am not.
And if I'm wrong, then tell me. What commandments was Yeshua talking about when He said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Yeshua is God, so what other commandments were dished out between the beginning and when Yeshua walked the earth?
And I've said this before (not in the same wording), I'm a follower of Yeshua, not a follower of Paul. Paul had good teachings, but Yeshua is my teacher.
And if I'm wrong, then tell me. What commandments was Yeshua talking about when He said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Yeshua is God, so what other commandments were dished out between the beginning and when Yeshua walked the earth?
And I've said this before (not in the same wording), I'm a follower of Yeshua, not a follower of Paul. Paul had good teachings, but Yeshua is my teacher.
The Law, as written, unless followed perfectly, does stand against man.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having >>> abolished G2673 – katargeō <<< in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
And Paul wrote that, not me 
.
That's your opinion. And you're entitled to it.
Paul is quite clear in his writings. Paul is only misunderstood if you try to make him say that believers are to be Torah observant.
There are a number of YEARS when Paul did not go to Jerusalem for the Feasts. Paul never once instructs the Body of Christ to observe Torah Law.
The Law was given so that transgressions might increase (Rom. 5).
Christ did magnify the Law; He made it even HARDER to keep, showing people that it is NOT ONLY actions that matter, but the intent of the heart (Mt. 5).
The Law was given in part to lead people to Christ - Who is the END of the Law for all who believe. Believers are no longer bound to the Law. We have died to the Law SO THAT we can be joined to Christ. You cannot be joined to both the Law and Christ. And you must be joined to Christ so that you may bear fruit unto God (Rom. 7:4-6).
Not to mention that Gentiles were never under the Law to begin with.
No.
If you want to obey and be pleasing to God, it's NOT through Torah pursuance.
Do as you like; in Christ you are free to err.
My goal is to keep pointing you to Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
In Him is Grace and Truth, and where the answers to this issue rest.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having >>> abolished G2673 – katargeō <<< in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
.That's your opinion. And you're entitled to it
.Paul is quite clear in his writings. Paul is only misunderstood if you try to make him say that believers are to be Torah observant.
There are a number of YEARS when Paul did not go to Jerusalem for the Feasts. Paul never once instructs the Body of Christ to observe Torah Law.
The Law was given so that transgressions might increase (Rom. 5).
Christ did magnify the Law; He made it even HARDER to keep, showing people that it is NOT ONLY actions that matter, but the intent of the heart (Mt. 5).
The Law was given in part to lead people to Christ - Who is the END of the Law for all who believe. Believers are no longer bound to the Law. We have died to the Law SO THAT we can be joined to Christ. You cannot be joined to both the Law and Christ. And you must be joined to Christ so that you may bear fruit unto God (Rom. 7:4-6).
Not to mention that Gentiles were never under the Law to begin with.
No.
- Everything that does not come from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23).
- The Law is not of faith (Gal. 3:12).
- Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6).
If you want to obey and be pleasing to God, it's NOT through Torah pursuance.
Do as you like; in Christ you are free to err.
My goal is to keep pointing you to Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.
In Him is Grace and Truth, and where the answers to this issue rest.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
Here are the questions that one need answer before rightly dividing the Word of Truth:
On which side of the Cross do you live?
What did Christ accomplish there?
Christ serves as Perfect, PERMANENT High Priest for which Covenant?
If you really want to obey God, you should make sure you're in agreement with Him what that means.
-JGIG
On which side of the Cross do you live?
What did Christ accomplish there?
Christ serves as Perfect, PERMANENT High Priest for which Covenant?
If you really want to obey God, you should make sure you're in agreement with Him what that means.
-JGIG
There is certainly no lack of moral guidance in the New Covenant Scriptures. Things like murder, adultery, slander, theft, etc. are still sin.
Paul exhorts us to not sin; sinning is dumb and destructive to us and to those around us.
But make no mistake: Paul was NOT preaching Law, or he would have been calling for the man in 1 Cor. 5 to be stoned, not merely put out of the assembly.
In 2 Cor. 3 the Ten Commandments (carved on tablets of stone) are described by Paul as the Ministry of Death.
The Law, as given, and with all of its jots and tittles that Torah folk are so fond of pointing out have not passed, contains instructions on punishments for Law-breakers.
No, Paul was not teaching Torah observance. If he were, we would have a rebuilt Temple and stonings and sacrifices would be common occurrences today.
Paul exhorts us to not sin; sinning is dumb and destructive to us and to those around us.
But make no mistake: Paul was NOT preaching Law, or he would have been calling for the man in 1 Cor. 5 to be stoned, not merely put out of the assembly.
In 2 Cor. 3 the Ten Commandments (carved on tablets of stone) are described by Paul as the Ministry of Death.
The Law, as given, and with all of its jots and tittles that Torah folk are so fond of pointing out have not passed, contains instructions on punishments for Law-breakers.
No, Paul was not teaching Torah observance. If he were, we would have a rebuilt Temple and stonings and sacrifices would be common occurrences today.
No. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.
In context, the following Scripture shows two things:
I agree that the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 drafted the 'four things' that Gentiles were to abstain from was to avoid offense to Jewish believers.
I do not agree that that meant that there were a set of 'rules' for Jewish believers and another for Gentile believers.
In Christ we are all one New Man, DEAD to the Law, and alive in Christ, New Creations to be led by His Spirit and no longer under the Law.
-JGIG
In context, the following Scripture shows two things:
- The Fruit of Gentile believers under the Spirit
- The Fruit of Jewish believers under the Law
I agree that the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 drafted the 'four things' that Gentiles were to abstain from was to avoid offense to Jewish believers.
I do not agree that that meant that there were a set of 'rules' for Jewish believers and another for Gentile believers.
In Christ we are all one New Man, DEAD to the Law, and alive in Christ, New Creations to be led by His Spirit and no longer under the Law.
-JGIG
Yeshua defeated death. Therefor the death require in Torah, for example breaking Sabbath or adultery, is no longer needed because Yeshua covered this.
(I'm not saying I believe in stoning, this is just an example)
On stoning someone, say someone committed adultery, according to Torah they are to be stone.
Well for that stoning to happen, 1 the only person who can authorize this is the High Priest/Levitical Priests. There are none of those around today, so already in that, a stoning cannot be held in todays society. 2 there has to be at least 2 witnesses, no witnesses no stoning. 3 you have which kind of goes back to the witness side of things, you have to have an accuser, if there is noone to accuse it, no stoning.
We can see this in the story when the Pharisees came to Yeshua with the adulterer and they asked Yeshua what to do with her. His reply, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." Slowly one by one the Pharisees left, therefor noone is left to accuse, there are no more witnesses. Yeshua forgives her, and tells her to turn from her ways.
So yes their is death in Torah, but to follow the death side of Torah would be to no accept what Yeshua did when He came and died for us.
I hope that explains it I guess
(I'm not saying I believe in stoning, this is just an example)
On stoning someone, say someone committed adultery, according to Torah they are to be stone.
Well for that stoning to happen, 1 the only person who can authorize this is the High Priest/Levitical Priests. There are none of those around today, so already in that, a stoning cannot be held in todays society. 2 there has to be at least 2 witnesses, no witnesses no stoning. 3 you have which kind of goes back to the witness side of things, you have to have an accuser, if there is noone to accuse it, no stoning.
We can see this in the story when the Pharisees came to Yeshua with the adulterer and they asked Yeshua what to do with her. His reply, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." Slowly one by one the Pharisees left, therefor noone is left to accuse, there are no more witnesses. Yeshua forgives her, and tells her to turn from her ways.
So yes their is death in Torah, but to follow the death side of Torah would be to no accept what Yeshua did when He came and died for us.
I hope that explains it I guess
So there are jots and tittles that passed?
How can that be?
The heavens and the earth are still here, aren't they?
-JGIG
If you are truly in Christ, you are correct. You are not condemned by what you do, good or bad. You are free in Christ to err.
Law-keeping is an unfruitful undertaking, however. It does nothing to bring the Lost to Christ and seeks to put believers back under a Law they are dead to, making them unfruitful as well. I've been observing and studying the Torah-pursuant movement for about 9 years now, and see this to absolutely be the case.
Salvation is not in Torah: Correct
Condemnation is not in Torah: Incorrect
Have you read Torah?!
Not all Hebrew Christians 'keep' Torah. And MANY Hebrew Christians find the Hebrew Roots/Torah Pursuant movements offensive.
-JGIG
Law-keeping is an unfruitful undertaking, however. It does nothing to bring the Lost to Christ and seeks to put believers back under a Law they are dead to, making them unfruitful as well. I've been observing and studying the Torah-pursuant movement for about 9 years now, and see this to absolutely be the case.
Salvation is not in Torah: Correct
Condemnation is not in Torah: Incorrect
Have you read Torah?!
Not all Hebrew Christians 'keep' Torah. And MANY Hebrew Christians find the Hebrew Roots/Torah Pursuant movements offensive.
-JGIG