question about submission

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Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Voluntary means it is your choice. The word in Greek is hypotassio. We put ourselves under the power of Christ, and we chose to put ourselves "under" other Christians. Not just men or husbands.

Jesus said,

"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45.

If Jesus chose to serve, then if we are following him, we need to be servants too!

"But what exactly is servanthood? Servanthood is the state, condition, or quality of one who lives as a servant. Further, a servant is first of all one who is under submission to another. For Christians, this means submission to God first, and then submission to one another. Then, as one in submission, a servant is one who seeks to meet the real needs of others or of the person he is serving. To put it another way, servanthood is the condition or state of being a servant to others, of ministry to others rather than the service of self. It means willingly giving of oneself to minister for and to others and to do whatever it takes to accomplish what is best for another."

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-8-heart-servant

This whole concept of servanthood is countercultural. We are not to be pursuing happiness, wealth, beauty, but rather we need to be following Christ, who showed us the ultimate servant, and submission - making the choice to obey the will of his Father even to death on a cross.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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You make it sound like women are less important and less valuable than men. Do you really think it's true? I'm almost debating on leaving this forum because being made in the image of God is not a small thing. God is perfect. Man is flawed. So you're saying that men are made in the image of this perfect loving being and women are made from this evil vile sinful being? That's not ok. If that's true then my life is worthless; utter garbage. I AM GARBAGE IF THAT IS TRUE!

I thought I'd said women were made in the image of God, too, in the last email, but I looked back and hadn't said that. Woman is made in the image of God. My point is that God made Adam in His image out of the dirt and breathed into Him the breath of life. We all get that image second hand so to speak. Eve was made from Adam's side, and the rest of get it through procreation, rather than being created directly.

Maybe you are bit too hung up on the issue of your own self-worth. God loved us enough to send Jesus to die for us, whether male or female, and so we are all valuable to God. Male or female, those who put their faith in Christ and stand firm in it are heirs of the promise.
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
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I thought I'd said women were made in the image of God, too, in the last email, but I looked back and hadn't said that. Woman is made in the image of God. My point is that God made Adam in His image out of the dirt and breathed into Him the breath of life. We all get that image second hand so to speak. Eve was made from Adam's side, and the rest of get it through procreation, rather than being created directly.

Maybe you are bit too hung up on the issue of your own self-worth. God loved us enough to send Jesus to die for us, whether male or female, and so we are all valuable to God. Male or female, those who put their faith in Christ and stand firm in it are heirs of the promise.
my rants weren't completely directed at you. they were also directed at SOMEONE else. Anyways As for my self worth the reason I got so frustrated was because I do put my worth in God and I take pride in the fact that I am created in his image. It's hard on women in the church because a lot of times we are treated like second class citizens and it does take a toll on our esteem. Angel has been wonderful helping me so I wanna publicly thank her for being awesome!
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
I'm just seeing a couple recent posts here (not having read the others) and regarding the Imago Dei, both male and female are both bearers, together, of God's image (Gen 1:26-27). Both are given the mandate to responsible sovereignty over the created order (Gen 1:28).

This teach is remarkable when you view it in the environment that it was given. You see, the most common ancient pagan view was that the gods played a trick on man by creating woman of inferior material.

But the Judeo-Christian creation account of Genesis affirms the exact opposite. The woman is of the same essence as man (“bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh,” Gen 2:23), created with the same Imago Dei, and endowed in the same measure. Any differences between male and female modern humans do not involve the Imago Dei.

This is echoed in redemption. First and foremost, Paul directs the read to the purpose of Christ’s redemptive work which was to set God’s creation free from the curse of Eden. Those “in Christ” are new creations (2 Cor 5:17), freed from the bondage of sin and its expression in human relationships (Rom 6:5–7). In the new humanity created in Christ, the culturally and religiously ingrained view that some human beings, on the basis of gender or race or social status, were in some sense inferior could no longer be maintained (Gal 3:26–28). It is in the New Testament we find humanity's fallen Imago Dei restored in Christ.

But what about those matters of the church? What is happening in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy?

First of all in the passage in 1 Corinthians 14:33–40 (where Paul instructs women in the church to “remain silent”), the restriction was not universally applied either by Paul or by other early congregations.

Understand that women functioned in prominent leadership positions (Phoebe, Lydia, Euodia, Syntyche, Priscilla, Junia), designated as ministers (or deacons, Rom 16:1), fellow workers (Rom 16:3), collaborators in the gospel (Phil 4:2–9), and apostles (or messengers, Rom 16:7). The Spirit of God empowered both men and women to be proclaimers of God’s redemptive work in Christ (Acts 2:14–18). Women’s participation in the edifying presentation of the gospel and vocal prayer in the congregation was a normal part of early church life (1 Cor 11).

So what are the reasons for the particular restriction imposed on women in Timothy’s congregation since a curtailed role for women was neither a part of the divine intention in creation nor a normative aspect of the redeemed order?

The first century church problem correlates well to the 21st century church problem we see today with respect to liberal feminism. See, in the first century, some women false teachers had arisen within some assemblies (not all) and were threatening the very integrity of the Christian worldview that was putting the entire church at risk. Action had to be taken and the apostle Paul took it.

Upon reading 1 Timothy, one becomes immediately aware that the integrity of the Christian faith is at stake. There are some in the church who teach false doctrines and are occupied with myths and other speculative ideas which militate against sound and sincere faith (1 Tim 1:3–4).

Some have wandered into vain debates, seeking to be teachers without understanding and discernment (1 Tim 1:6–7) and there is throughout a serious concern in reaction by Paul for maintaining and guarding the truth of the faith (1 Tim 1:19; 2:4–7; 3:14–16; 4:1–3, 6–7, 16;6:1–5, 12).

The false teachings have led to a disregard for proper decorum and practices in the church (1 Tim 2:8–15) as well as to a rejection (and perversion) of the institution of marriage (1 Tim 4:3). In light of this last aspect of the heretical teaching, it is noteworthy that particular attention is directed to young widows (in 1 Tim 5:9–15), who are urged to marry, have children and manage their homes (1 Tim 5:14). When these normal, socially prescribed roles and functions are neglected or rejected, these women are prone to “gossiping” and being “busybodies, saying things they ought not to” (1 Tim 5:13).

Heretical teachings, that some women in some assemblies were unfortunately disseminating, were upsetting Christian epistemology and morally acceptable patterns of congregational and home life.

For example, such a situation in the Ephesian church is addressed in 2 Timothy 3:6–9, where women are the special targets of those “who oppose the truth” (2 Tim 3:8), becoming “unable to acknowledge the truth” (2 Tim 3:7). In all cases, Paul’s restrictive word in 1 Timothy 2:11–12 must be understood within a context where false teaching is at issue. The general prohibition against all those who “teach false doctrines” (1 Tim 1:3) is now focused specifically on the women who have fallen prey to such false teaching and whom are involved in its promulgation.

The admonition of 1 Timothy 2:11 to “learn in quietness and full submission” is thus directed at the women who, on the basis of the heretical teaching, have become loud voices, strident advocates of ideas that are unbiblical and ungodly. The prohibition against their teaching is occasioned by their involvement in false teachings and heresy.

Finally, the prohibition against “authority over a man” (1 Tim 2:12) must be understood within the context of their rejection of the authority of others, probably the male leaders in Ephesus whose orthodox, authoritative teaching is being undermined by these female's heretical views. The unusual Greek word used carries primarily the negative sense of “grasping for” or “usurping authority.”

Thus, the restriction of women’s place and participation in the life and ministry of the church at Ephesus is “directed against women involved in false teaching who have abused proper exercise of authority in the church (not denied by Paul elsewhere to women) by usurpation and domination of the male leaders and teachers in the church at Ephesus.” Of course, Paul goes on to ground this instruction in reflections on selected passages from Genesis. Needless to say, all of this is VERY relevant today.

However, what amounts to church discipline for the heretical, unruly, and ungodly must not be extrapolated to orthodox godly women. It CANNOT be used as a reason to undermine the latter's self-worth or giftedness in any way inside or outside the church.
 
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J

Jak795

Guest
So I was reading this book and it explained how after the verses about wives submitting and husbands loving there's a verse that says, "husbands and wives must submit to one another as is fitting to the Lord." (I think I got that right.) Well this book says that husbands and wives are to submit to eacother based on that verse. Also it explained that submission is an act of free will. I never heard it explained that way. What are your thoughts on this? I don't think it's saying the man isn't the head I just think it's saying that 1) submission is not shameful and 2) submission is not just for a woman to do. Thoughts?

I feel like when they say submission it means allowing your partner to think along side you. To be fair and allow each other to think for themselves. Not to be domineering to each other. You get what I mean?
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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A lot of times when people post stuff like how women are helpers or women weren't made in the image of God it makes it sound like we are less valuable not only in the church but in Gods eyes. I know the verse that says all are one in Christ so then why aren't we acting like it? Why is there this need for women to submit? Why can't we all really be equal in Christ and submit to each other? :'(
Submission doesn't imply inferiority. All of us have to submit to someone in life. Yes, a wife should submit to her husband. When he goes to work, he submits to his boss at work. We were all supposed to submit to our parents growing up.

Think about the story of Joseph. At one point, he was Potiphar's slave. Was Joseph of lesser value in the sight of God or less dear to God than Potiphar when he was a slave? Was Joseph less valuable to God than Pharaoh when he was a slave or when he was prime minister second only to Pharoah in the Egyptian government?

Wives are to submit to husbands because that is apostolic teaching, and it also portrays the relationship between Christ and the church. The earliest account of the Gospel I can find in the Bible is in Genesis. Luke calls Adam the son of God. He was a created son. God took this son, and put him to sleep and opened his side. Out of his side he formed his bride.

God also sent His Son Jesus, who died a death on the cross and His side was pierced.

When Adam awoke from sleep, he said that Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone and that two would be one flesh. But Paul wrote that two being one flesh was a mystery that had to do with Christ and the church.

We are talking about a great love story, where Christ loved His church enough to die for her. So how can anyone say that his bride is not valuable. And the church is what woman typifies in the creation. Adam recognized Eve as valuable. Jesus recognized the church as valuable, and gave His life for her. God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son. We are reading a story of a bride of great value. I don't see any of this as consistent with the idea that women are not valuable.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
JFSurvivor, if you have any further questions about this topic, feel free to PM me (as I don't read every post or thread at CC) and I will answer from my extensive orthodox scholarly library (with sources if you like). Peace.
 

JFSurvivor

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Jan 20, 2015
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JFSurvivor, if you have any further questions about this topic, feel free to PM me (as I don't read every post or thread at CC) and I will answer from my extensive orthodox scholarly library (with sources if you like). Peace.
Thanks so much!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Voluntary means it is your choice. The word in Greek is hypotassio. We put ourselves under the power of Christ, and we chose to put ourselves "under" other Christians. Not just men or husbands.

Jesus said,

"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45.

If Jesus chose to serve, then if we are following him, we need to be servants too!

"But what exactly is servanthood? Servanthood is the state, condition, or quality of one who lives as a servant. Further, a servant is first of all one who is under submission to another. For Christians, this means submission to God first, and then submission to one another. Then, as one in submission, a servant is one who seeks to meet the real needs of others or of the person he is serving. To put it another way, servanthood is the condition or state of being a servant to others, of ministry to others rather than the service of self. It means willingly giving of oneself to minister for and to others and to do whatever it takes to accomplish what is best for another."

https://bible.org/seriespage/mark-8-heart-servant

This whole concept of servanthood is countercultural. We are not to be pursuing happiness, wealth, beauty, but rather we need to be following Christ, who showed us the ultimate servant, and submission - making the choice to obey the will of his Father even to death on a cross.

I think what Angela said here is getting at the real issue.

Servanthood is a real problem for ALL OF US.



It's a concept that, in modern culture, especially in the West, we just can't comprehend easily.

It really isn't about women "submitting".. it's that our entire culture, men and women, have trouble submitting to Christ. We have trouble with the idea of servanthood. It's a really hard concept for us.
(And I'm not excluding myself here.)

If men and women both have trouble understanding submission to Christ, then OF COURSE we have trouble understanding how to submit ourselves, as servants, to each other.

I don't think servanthood is a matter requiring better study of a couple verses...
I think it's a matter requiring a paradigm shift.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Not quite. . .

"God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him (singular).
Male and female he created them (plural). (Ge 1:27). . . . . . .

Not quite. . .

"Man is the image and glory of God (1 Co 11:7). . .

the woman is the glory of man (1 Co 11:7). . .created for man, came from man, in his image. . .
and being the image of man, who is the image of God, woman is the image of God. . . . . .

"What is good about being a woman" is the same thing that is good about being a man, she is likewise the image of God because she is the glory of the man (1Co 11:7) who is the image of God.

Is there anything more for the godly woman to desire than God's holy order of creation?
"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 3:28

"Then God said, 'Let us make human beings in our image to be like us. They will reign over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock and all the wild animals on the Earth and all the small animals that scurry along the ground.' So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." -Genesis 1:26-27


You make it sound like women are less important and less valuable than men
. Do you really think it's true?
Have you let the present culture overrun the word of God for you, and form your thinking?

I'm almost debating on leaving this forum because being made in the image of God is not a small thing. God is perfect. Man is flawed. So you're saying that men are made in the image of this perfect loving being and women are made from this evil vile sinful being? That's not ok. If that's true then my life is worthless; utter garbage. I AM GARBAGE IF THAT IS TRUE!
Maybe it would be better to be transformed by the renewing of your mind (Ro 12:2), to bring it into agreement with the Word (Jesus Christ) of God written.

You say that man is made in the image of the creator and woman is made in the image of the creation...how is that right?
The same way the woman is the glory of man, while the man is the glory of God (1Co 11:17).
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Submission doesn't imply inferiority. All of us have to submit to someone in life. Yes, a wife should submit to her husband. When he goes to work, he submits to his boss at work. We were all supposed to submit to our parents growing up.

Think about the story of Joseph. At one point, he was Potiphar's slave. Was Joseph of lesser value in the sight of God or less dear to God than Potiphar when he was a slave? Was Joseph less valuable to God than Pharaoh when he was a slave or when he was prime minister second only to Pharoah in the Egyptian government?

Wives are to submit to husbands because that is apostolic teaching, and it also portrays the relationship between Christ and the church. The earliest account of the Gospel I can find in the Bible is in Genesis. Luke calls Adam the son of God. He was a created son. God took this son, and put him to sleep and opened his side. Out of his side he formed his bride.

God also sent His Son Jesus, who died a death on the cross and His side was pierced.

When Adam awoke from sleep, he said that Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone and that two would be one flesh. But Paul wrote that two being one flesh was a mystery that had to do with Christ and the church.

We are talking about a great love story, where Christ loved His church enough to die for her. So how can anyone say that his bride is not valuable.
Keeping in mind that the bride had no value in herself, for she was an enemy of God (Ro 5:10) with the rest of mankind when he died for her.

The bride is just a clay jar (earthen vessel) in which is the treasure of the Lord's glory, transforming her into his likeness with every increasing glory, in giving her the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. (2Co 3:18-4:7).

And the church is what woman typifies in the creation. Adam recognized Eve as valuable.
Jesus recognized the church as valuable, and gave His life for her. God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son. We are reading a story of a bride of great value. I don't see any of this as consistent with the idea that women are not valuable.
The church is not the hidden treasure, Jesus is the hidden treasure.

The Church's only value is the grace of Christ, of which she is the receptacle.
 

JFSurvivor

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Jan 20, 2015
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Wow Elin you certainly like pushing buttons don't you? You either really believe all this or you're a troll.
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
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Keeping in mind that the bride had no value in herself, for she was an enemy of God (Ro 5:10) with the rest of mankind when he died for her.

The bride is just a clay jar (earthen vessel) in which is the treasure of the Lord's glory, transforming her into his likeness with every increasing glory, in giving her the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. (2Co 3:18-4:7).


The church is not the hidden treasure, Jesus is the hidden treasure.

The Church's only value is the grace of Christ, of which she is the receptacle.
Elin say your husband started treating you like whites did blacks back when slavery was still around. Would you be okay with that? After all, it's your duty to submit, right?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin say your husband started treating you like whites did blacks back when slavery was still around. Would you be okay with that? After all, it's your duty to submit, right?
Are you thinking of the slave owners, both here and in the OT, who treated their slaves well, so that some slaves chose to stay with their masters rather than be free?

Or are you thinking of the masters who mistreated and abused their slaves?

Is that how the Church submits to Christ?

Abuse of persons is against the law of God, as well as the law of this land.
It is both sin and illegal.

The Church does not submit to sin nor law-breaking.

And you know that. . .
 

JFSurvivor

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Jan 20, 2015
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Are you thinking of the slave owners, both here and in the OT, who treated their slaves well, so that some slaves chose to stay with their masters rather than be free?

Or are you thinking of the masters who mistreated and abused their slaves?

Is that how the Church submits to Christ?

Abuse of persons is against the law of God, as well as the law of this land.
It is both sin and illegal.

The Church does not submit to sin nor law-breaking.

And you know that. . .
so you would be happy with being a slave?
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
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Are you thinking of the slave owners, both here and in the OT, who treated their slaves well, so that some slaves chose to stay with their masters rather than be free?

Or are you thinking of the masters who mistreated and abused their slaves?

Is that how the Church submits to Christ?

Abuse of persons is against the law of God, as well as the law of this land.
It is both sin and illegal.

The Church does not submit to sin nor law-breaking.

And you know that. . .
You said in your previous post "keeping in mind the bride had no value in herself." So by that instinct, would you have any value of yourself in your husband treating you like a slave?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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Elin said:
Keeping in mind that the bride had no value in herself, for she was an enemy of God (Ro 5:10) with the rest of mankind when he died for her (edit: not after he died for her).

The bride is just a clay jar (earthen vessel) in which is the treasure of the Lord's glory, transforming her into his likeness with every increasing glory, in giving her the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. (2Co 3:18-4:7).

The church is not the hidden treasure, Jesus is the hidden treasure.

The Church's only value is in the grace of Christ, of which she is the receptacle.
Elin said:
Are you thinking of the slave owners, both here and in the OT, who treated their slaves well, so that some slaves chose to stay with their masters rather than be free?

Or are you thinking of the masters who mistreated and abused their slaves?

Is that how the Church submits to Christ?

Abuse of persons is against the law of God, as well as the law of this land.
It is both sin and illegal.

The Church does not submit to sin nor to law-breaking.


And you know that. . .
You said in your previous post "keeping in mind the bride had no value in herself." So by that instinct,
would you have any value of yourself in your husband treating you like a slave?
It might help to read it again, thoroughly. . .
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Voluntary means it is your choice. The word in Greek is hypotassio. We put ourselves under the power of Christ, and we chose to put ourselves "under" other Christians.

The Bible says not to murder. We choose to obey the command or not to obey it. There may be some punishment and consequences, both from civil authorities and otherwise if we break it. Is this a 'voluntary' thing?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Elin, God commended His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinner's Christ died for us.

Doesn't the fact that we were the object of God's love imply that we had some value to God? If we have value to God, we are valuable.