Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Verses state salvation requires DOING, salvation is not by NOT DOING.
Salvation requires BELIEVING - He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; condemnation is by NOT BELIEVING - but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is condemned already, because he HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD (John 3:18). There is nothing that we can DO that would ADD to what Christ HAS ALREADY DONE. Believe and receive.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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This kind of "belief" that you are talking about here (belief only that is void of repentance) is not the same kind of belief that I contend saves. The demons have belief only, they believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Only those who have truly repented have this latter kind of belief/faith that saves. Christ alone is the all sufficient means of our salvation (no supplements needed) and belief that trusts only in Him will save us (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26 etc..).
Will you ever come to understand this?
Nope. . .the blind cannot see.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Faith is NOT a gift from God Seabass. Faith is "belief and trust in God".

How does one receive Faith? By hearing the Word of God preached to them SeaBass.

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When we True Christians bring the Gospel to the World those who hear what we say receive Faith by listening to the preaching the Word of God.

Once we have received Faith we also receive the Grace of God.

Then by confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in Him we receive Salvation.

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Once we receive Salvation SeaBass we become Righteous by Jesus Christ and we become Justified when we receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Then if we were to die on the spot we will enter into Heaven without having to do "Works" or be Baptized.

The Thief on the cross did no works, did not get Baptized, but yet Jesus Christ said he will be with Him.

Luke 23:40-43
[SUP]40 [/SUP] But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
[SUP]41 [/SUP] "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Paradise is Heaven.

Revelation 2:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] ' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.'

The Thief did no works!

The Thief was not Baptized!

Yet Jesus Christ Himself said, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I know you HATE this Seabass because it shows that you are a fool for teaching the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says. You can claim all you want that the Thief never entered into Heaven and that this is an O.T. thing SeaBass. It does not matter what you say SeaBass because you are not doing the Will of the Father by teaching Salvation is by Works when clearly the Holy Spirit say its by Faith and Grace only.

Why should I listen to what you have to say SeaBass? I have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches me the Truth. The one main object taught in the whole Bible is to Love God SeaBass. IF we Love God we will do that which He tells us to do and we will do it in Love!

If you have Love for God in you SeaBass then you will do the works God wants you to do and you will do them in Love. If you really had God in you and if you really did Love God then you would not be saying works are mandatory.

But since you are teaching that works are mandatory, we now have to ask if you really have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and have you ever received Salvation SeaBass?

There are many false Christians in the World who are willing to deceive people into following them instead of following Jesus Christ and I truly believe you are one of them SeaBass. I do not see the Love for Jesus Christ in you SeaBass, all i see is a clanging cymbal trying desperatly to get people to follow what you say.

We are to listen to the Holy Spirit only SeaBass. We are to follow God only SeaBass. All you are accomplishing here SeaBass is nothing. Nobody is listening to you and nobody cares what you have to say. All you are doing is spreading strife into the body of believers.

Did you know God hates what you are doing SeaBass?

Proverbs 6:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP] There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.


 
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The word says that by the handiwork of God, no one has an excuse to deny Him. Therefore He has done ALL in order that our faith can be activated. When one chooses against faith in Jesus Christ, then it is their own choice and they will suffer the punishment due them, which has no reflection on God in the least, for He has done all for anyone to know Him--to the extreme.
I agree with you that men of their own free will choose to have faith in Christ and that God does not decide against the will of men which men will or will not have faith.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Those who disobey are acting carnally, aren't they? Do you think Holy Spirit would be behind it?

No one can understand God or know Him or obey Him without the Holy Spirit. It is He who empowers us to live our lives to please God. So, no, no one can please God without faith. No one is empowered to obey Him without Holy Spirit dwelling within.

Therefore Matthew 7 is talking about those whom Jesus actually knows intimately, and those would be people who have received Him by faith and obey. Those who obey without life-changing faith in Him remain strangers to Him.
Post #5094 you posted "No one can obey God without having the Spirit of God dwelling in them."

Therefore according to you, if one does not obey it is the fault/blame of the Holy Spirit for having failed to indwell in that person. But that idea puts moral culpability upon the Holy Spirit. Evidently then, one does NOT have t have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit to obey God. Peter's hearers in Acts 2 were lost and NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit yet they were able to hear, understand, be pricked in their hearts by Peter's sermon asking Peter "what shall we do?". Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized and they were able to obey without a literal personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was their own free will choice to obey or not and those that chose not to obey then that would be their own fault/blame and not the fault of the Holy Spirit for failing to indwell them.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Assertion without demonstration is without merit. . .
You keeping posting "previously addressed" when your previous address did not prove you point or disprove mine.

So all those post of yours with "previously addressed" are, as you say, without merit.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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That one REALLY confuses me. God deliberately deceives people so they cannot be "saved" ?
Doesn't seem too fair and just to me ?




I hope I'm not "ignorant" and deserving of your pity, dear Elin.
Just a humble truth-seeker who has difficulty getting his head around some of this stuff.

John 3:16 .... he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him ( faith ?) should not perish, but have everlasting life.

James 2 ...... faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I did not say God deceives people. There are all these religious organizations that contradict each other for people are deceiving themselves. People deceive themselves in thinking that everyone can believe whatever they want and be saved, deceive themselves by thinking there is more than one way to heaven, deceive themselves in thinking that obedience to the word of God is not necessary to being saved, deceive themselves in thinking there are many bodies and many faiths when there is just one body that goes by one faith (Eph 4:4,5)......
 
Mar 12, 2014
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You mean Matthew 7:21. John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Yes it is very simple. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Also very simple, but you insist on making it hard. It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.

As I have posted many, many, many times before if we don't repent then we won't believe the gospel and become saved. Repentance and believes in Him are inseparable in receiving salvation (Acts 10:43; 11:17,18). Two sides to the same coin. In regards to confession (Matthew 10:32-33) - the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father. It's not repent and believe the gospel but still lost until you round up a group of men at Walmart a week later and confess Jesus to them and finally saved a week later. If water baptism is of equal importance as belief, then why didn't Jesus mention this in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26? If belief and baptism were of equal importance then Jesus would have said in Mark 16:16 that whoever is not baptized will not be saved. NOWHERE did Jesus say water baptized or condemned, but He said repent or perish (Luke 13:3) and believe or be condemned (John 3:18). So much for your baptism is of equal importance with belief argument. If you get baptized but you don't believe then you will not be saved. If you believe but are unable to get water baptized before you die you will still be saved (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18; Luke 23:40-43).

What is the only word that Jesus connects with receiving eternal life in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVES. Did Jesus say whoever believes in Him "plus accomplishes something else afterwards" will receive eternal life? NO. Simply BELIEVES. If Jesus really meant that believing in Him is not enough and additional steps are required "after" one believes in Him then He contradicted Himself here. You still don't seem to understand that repentance precedes "believes in Him" and "belief and confession" are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and that water baptism FOLLOWS "believes in Him/receive the gift of the Holy Spirit/salvation" (Acts 10:43-47).

Nobody is contending that we are saved by "belief only" IN THAT SENSE - So "I believe in Him and I'm saved, but I never repented" - is an OXYMORON - unless you are talking about mere "mental assent" belief "which falls short of belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation (like the belief of demons - James 2:19). You still just don't get this.

A person that does not believe in the existence of Christ "mental assent belief" will never repent and believe in Christ for salvation. Repent and believe the gospel in that order. The Jews needed to repent "change their minds" about their sinful position and need for Christ to save them and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. The word of faith is in the mouth and heart of believers and not just one or the other (Romans 10:8). Water baptism is in regards to the remission of sins and not in order to obtain remission. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation. Those who have truly repented believe and those who truly believe have already repented. INSEPARABLE. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. In Mark 16:16, believes and is baptized is general general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized yet Jesus clarifies the clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." So it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation (John 3:18) and not the lack of baptism. It's amazing how you can read Mark 16:16(b); and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26 and still say that Jesus taught that we MUST be water baptized in order to be saved/water baptized or condemned.

Our belief is in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). So belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Saved through faith, not works. If our belief results in producing no works, then we demonstrate that it's dead (James 2:14-16). We must be made alive in Christ FIRST then the good works follow (by grace you have been saved through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto good works) - Ephesians 2:5-10. Then we SHOW our faith by our works (James 2:18) but we don't establish our faith by our works. Good works are a demonstration of our faith and not the origin of it.

Jesus said unless you repent you will perish (Luke 13:3). Jesus said he who does not believe is condemned already (John 3:18). Jesus said those who confess Me before men (descriptive of believers) I will confess before My Father who is in heaven (Matthew 10:32). But whoever denies me before men (descriptive of unbelievers) I will deny him before My Father who is in heaven (Matthew 10:33). Jesus said he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16) but Jesus DID NOT say that whoever is not water baptized will not be saved.

If one does not truly BELIEVE (trust in Christ alone for salvation) then their belief at best is mere "mental assent" belief (no different than the belief of demons); their repentance at best is self moral reformation; their confession is mere lip service; and their baptism was just a bath. Such a person is still lost and does not truly BELIEVE IN HIM. Repentance precedes "believes in Him" and belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8). Saved believers confess Christ before men throughout their lifetime (Matthew 10:32) and unbelievers deny Christ throughout their lifetime (Matthew 10:33). Lip service confession (Matthew 7:22) = deny. Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation. Are you ready now to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel? Your 4 step check list in that order with your applied semantics and hermeneutics misses the mark.

Those who teach that salvation is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9) have no problem with understanding that repentance precedes believe the gospel/faith in Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) and faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and water baptism FOLLOWS believes in Him/receives remission of sins/receives the gift of the Holy Spirit/saved (Acts 10:43-47).
1 Jn 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
Those with no works will not abide forever.
Heb 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Those with no works will NOT receive the promise
Eph 6:6 "Not with eyeservice, as men pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
No works/faith only is just eye service, pleasers of men.
Mk 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Those with no works are not the brother and sister of Christ.
Mt 7:21 he that DOETH the will of the Father enter the kingdom.
Those with no works will NOT enter the kingdom.

Summation: those with no works have failed in doing the will of God.

Therefore since it's God's will that men believe that means believing is DOING, believing is a work as Jesus said it is in Jn 6:27-29. No verse says it God's will men "believe only" or do "no works" as it has been demonstrated meany times a NT belief INCLUDES repentance, confession and baptism and remains DEAD without these things.


You keep posting that if one does not repent he cannot believe. That means 'belief only' cannot save but one must have repentance AND belief, right? Yes, that's right. You say yourself "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation." You kill the false 'belief only' theology yourself. So why would you continue to push the idea that faith only saves when a faith void of repentance does not save ACCORDING to YOUR OWN WORDS?



Just because Jesus said in many verses that one must "believe" but did not mention repentance, confession or baptism in all those verses does not in any way mean repentance confession and baptism is not necessary. In Lk 13:3 Jesus said to repent or perish. If repentance were not mentioned anywhere else by Christ, this ONE verse would be sufficient enough for repentance being necessary to being saved/not perishing. For anyone to try and argue that since Christ did not specifically mention "repentance" in every verse He spoke about "believing" means repentance is not necessary would be horrible exegesis while creating a host of contradictions among verses. A correct study of the bible would show that he word 'believe" includes repentance as the word "believed" in Acts 2:44 includes being baptized per Acts 2:41.

In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter said baptism saves. Does that mean baptism ALONE saves, that is, one does NOT have to believe, repent or confess to be saved but be baptized ALONE? No, baptism in this verses is used as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES belief repentance and baptism just as 'believe" is used in many verses as a synecdoche where it includes repentance confession and baptism. Therefore just a 1Pet 3:21 does NOT mean baptism ALONE saves, verses as Jn 3:15,16,18; Jn 5:24; Jn 6:29 etc do NOT mean belief ONLY saves. If Jn 3:16 can mean belief ALONE saves, then why doesn't 1 Pet 3:21 mean baptism ALONE saves or Lk 13:3 mean repentance ALONE saves or Mt 10:32,33 means confession ALONE saves? The man-made teaching of belief only creates contradictions to God's word and therefore is not a part of God's word.

Our belief is a work and is a dead belief if it is not a work. If one's belief does not include the work of repentance then he has a dead belief only and all the belief only in the world cannot keep the impenitent person from perishing, Lk 13:3,5.
 
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This kind of "belief" that you are talking about here (belief only that is void of repentance) is not the same kind of belief that I contend saves. The demons have belief only, they believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Only those who have truly repented have this latter kind of belief/faith that saves. Christ alone is the all sufficient means of our salvation (no supplements needed) and belief that trusts only in Him will save us (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26 etc..). Will you ever come to understand this?

You have said one must repent AND believe. Therefore believing is not possible if one does not first repent making repentance just as essential to salvation as believing. You say yourself "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation." (my emp)

So must one repent AND believe to be saved or just believe only to be saved?
 
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Salvation requires BELIEVING - He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned; condemnation is by NOT BELIEVING - but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is condemned already, because he HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD (John 3:18). There is nothing that we can DO that would ADD to what Christ HAS ALREADY DONE. Believe and receive.

Since Jn 3:18 does not say "He who repents and believes in Him is not condemned" - since repentance is NOT specifically mentioned in this verse does that mean repentance is NOT necessary even though you have said "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation."?
 
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Nope. . .the blind cannot see.
Mailmandan is contradicting himself all over the place. He admits repentance AND belief are obviously necessary to be salvation but wants verses as Jn 3:18 teach belief only is all that is necessary to be saved........

Mailmandan needs to make up his mind, is it (1)repentance AND belief that saves or (2) belief alone that saves? 1 or 2?

1 and 2 are mutually exclusive propositions therefore both cannot be true at the same time.
 
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Faith is NOT a gift from God Seabass. Faith is "belief and trust in God".

How does one receive Faith? By hearing the Word of God preached to them SeaBass.

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When we True Christians bring the Gospel to the World those who hear what we say receive Faith by listening to the preaching the Word of God.

Once we have received Faith we also receive the Grace of God.

Then by confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in Him we receive Salvation.

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Once we receive Salvation SeaBass we become Righteous by Jesus Christ and we become Justified when we receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Then if we were to die on the spot we will enter into Heaven without having to do "Works" or be Baptized.

The Thief on the cross did no works, did not get Baptized, but yet Jesus Christ said he will be with Him.

Luke 23:40-43
[SUP]40 [/SUP] But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
[SUP]41 [/SUP] "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Paradise is Heaven.

Revelation 2:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] ' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.'

The Thief did no works!

The Thief was not Baptized!

Yet Jesus Christ Himself said, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I know you HATE this Seabass because it shows that you are a fool for teaching the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says. You can claim all you want that the Thief never entered into Heaven and that this is an O.T. thing SeaBass. It does not matter what you say SeaBass because you are not doing the Will of the Father by teaching Salvation is by Works when clearly the Holy Spirit say its by Faith and Grace only.

Why should I listen to what you have to say SeaBass? I have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches me the Truth. The one main object taught in the whole Bible is to Love God SeaBass. IF we Love God we will do that which He tells us to do and we will do it in Love!

If you have Love for God in you SeaBass then you will do the works God wants you to do and you will do them in Love. If you really had God in you and if you really did Love God then you would not be saying works are mandatory.

But since you are teaching that works are mandatory, we now have to ask if you really have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and have you ever received Salvation SeaBass?

There are many false Christians in the World who are willing to deceive people into following them instead of following Jesus Christ and I truly believe you are one of them SeaBass. I do not see the Love for Jesus Christ in you SeaBass, all i see is a clanging cymbal trying desperatly to get people to follow what you say.

We are to listen to the Holy Spirit only SeaBass. We are to follow God only SeaBass. All you are accomplishing here SeaBass is nothing. Nobody is listening to you and nobody cares what you have to say. All you are doing is spreading strife into the body of believers.

Did you know God hates what you are doing SeaBass?

Proverbs 6:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP] There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.



Some here (NOT ME) are arguing that faith is a gift of God in the sense you can only have faith if God alone decides to give you this gift. Therefore if what these people say is true, then if you were faithless it would be God's fault for failing to give you the "gift of faith", right?



I agree that from Rom 10:9,10 one must believe and confess to be saved, therefore a belief only void of confession will NOT save a person, right? Can a belief VOID of confession save?



You can argue the thief till you are blue in the face but that is an old argument that has never held water for faith-only advocates. You cannot change, rewrite the bible to make the thief an example of NT salvation though yu are trying hard to do so. The fact you continue to try and use the thief who lived under the OT law and NOT use actual NT examples as Peter's hearers in Acts 2 or the eunuch, Simon, the Samaritans Acts 8 is very telling on how you are grasping at straws with your argument with the thief.
 
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Post #5094 you posted "No one can obey God without having the Spirit of God dwelling in them."

Therefore according to you, if one does not obey it is the fault/blame of the Holy Spirit for having failed to indwell in that person. But that idea puts moral culpability upon the Holy Spirit. Evidently then, one does NOT have t have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit to obey God. Peter's hearers in Acts 2 were lost and NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit yet they were able to hear, understand, be pricked in their hearts by Peter's sermon asking Peter "what shall we do?". Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized and they were able to obey without a literal personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was their own free will choice to obey or not and those that chose not to obey then that would be their own fault/blame and not the fault of the Holy Spirit for failing to indwell them.
Your conclusion is a bit off. A man cannot obey God if he is not in relationship with Him. It is the same as in the verse that says one cannot please God without faith. There is just no power (or desire) to obey God in an unbeliever.

Why do you say such an absurd thing about the Holy Spirit failing in any way?? That's just weird.

Coming to Christ is not an act of obedience, but of one's free will to follow Jesus. Holy spirit comes to dwell within the believer and He begins immediately to transform the individual's entire paradigm with regard to how to live in order to please God rather than self. To obey or not to obey---that is the question! It is up to the believer to choose God's way.

As I said, no unbeliever can obey God, for He has no clue (no eyes to see or ears to hear) what God is saying to him.
 
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Your conclusion is a bit off. A man cannot obey God if he is not in relationship with Him. It is the same as in the verse that says one cannot please God without faith. There is just no power (or desire) to obey God in an unbeliever.

Why do you say such an absurd thing about the Holy Spirit failing in any way?? That's just weird.

Coming to Christ is not an act of obedience, but of one's free will to follow Jesus. Holy spirit comes to dwell within the believer and He begins immediately to transform the individual's entire paradigm with regard to how to live in order to please God rather than self. To obey or not to obey---that is the question! It is up to the believer to choose God's way.

As I said, no unbeliever can obey God, for He has no clue (no eyes to see or ears to hear) what God is saying to him.

A man can never be in a relationship with God as long has he disobeys God's will.

See my signature line below, 1 Jn 3:10...as long as one CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness he CONTINUES to NOT be of God. Therefore if anyone desires to be "of God" then he must DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. AS Peter said in Acts 10:35 he that WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted with God. Some here on this forum continue to try and rewrite the bible in trying to find a way to get one to be "of God" WITHOUT having to work righteousness which is impossible making the "no works -faith only" theology foreign to the bible's teachings.

Coming to Christ IS MOST CERTAINLY AN ACT OF OBEDIENCE. It is the total opposite of "no works" false theology.

Lk 6:46 Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and DO NOT the things which I say" So Jesus is not and cannot be the Lord of those with no works, those that do not.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep my commandments" No obedience proves no love for Christ.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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All the works required for salvation were accomplished by Jesus Christ. Those who are self important and go about to demonstrate to God how worthy they are will find themselves in with the goats and not numbered among the sheep.

There are five I wills that the devil made in Isaiah 14:13-14 these are very visible in his children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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You keeping posting "previously addressed" when your previous address did not prove you point or disprove mine.

So all those post of yours with "previously addressed" are, as you say, without merit.
Previously addressed. . .
 
Mar 12, 2014
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All the works required for salvation were accomplished by Jesus Christ. Those who are self important and go about to demonstrate to God how worthy they are will find themselves in with the goats and not numbered among the sheep.

There are five I wills that the devil made in Isaiah 14:13-14 these are very visible in his children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Christ does not do the works of believing, repenting, confessing or submitting to baptism for you. Those are works Christ has given to man to do. Christ did His work in coming to earth and dying upon the cross for every man, Heb 5:9. If Christ's work in doing this is all that is necessary then every man will be saved...but that is not the case, Mt 7:13. Evidently, dying on the cross is Christ's work/role in man's salvation and obeying Christ in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism is man's work/role. Every man will not be saved for every man will not do his work/role in his own salvation Phil 2:12.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Christ does not do the works of believing, repenting, confessing or submitting to baptism for you. Those are works Christ has given to man to do. Christ did His work in coming to earth and dying upon the cross for every man, Heb 5:9. If Christ's work in doing this is all that is necessary then every man will be saved...but that is not the case, Mt 7:13. Evidently, dying on the cross is Christ's work/role in man's salvation and obeying Christ in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism is man's work/role. Every man will not be saved for every man will not do his work/role in his own salvation Phil 2:12.
You cannot do any of them unless you are first born again. You must be quickened by the Holy Spirit. John tells us that God gives enough light to all men to see Christ and John 3:18-21 shows their response.

The devil still endeavors to tell God how God must act. One of the five I wills is to set his throne above God in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 26, 2014
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i think that peter barjonah became and was and remained a disciple of yahshua hamashiach,

and there was not just a few unknown - but rather a few major known - times he did not

obey the Father .......