The Role of the Woman

[CeileDe]

if the husband is abusive, the relationship won't be loving... I don't see things in scripture about leaving your spouse if they are abusive...

I suppose you could take a broad view of verses like God hasn't given us a spirit of fear and figure that could give you an out...

Once again we are talking about scripture and what it says not what some idiotic abusive husband might or might not do. Scripture does not tell a husband to be abusive to his wife.

 

[Dan_473]

Zoii, I wanted to say that this scripture was not directed at you in any way and so if it offended you in any way I apologize, but as somebody did say that is the word of God and we are to obey it. I actually read it in my daily readings and wanted to share it and get people thinking of what they wanted. Esther was a Godly woman and was obedient, but she actually had the ability to stand up for herself yet in a loving way. Not only did she save the Jews life, but she also gained so much respect from her husband.

well, one point here... I don't think the passage says we are to do what esther did... and not what Vashti did...

granted, Esther is presented as the "star" of the story... but David and Abraham are also presented positively, but we don't want to do everything they did...

 

[Dan_473]

And here we have a perfect example why 70% of young men (and growing) in Western Civilization presently refuse to marry anymore. Little miss radical feminist liberated secularist is going to learn the hard way as is any male foolish enough to become legally ensnared by her.

one of the changes in our society is also that fewer women are interested in marrying... maybe because, as zoii said, the role of husband as protector and provider is less important now...

does the bible say a woman has to marry? I can't think of a passage...

 

[Dan_473]

no argument here... just maybe add "but now a cowering heart"

oops! that should be NOT a cowering heart...

 

[Dan_473]

Okay, but what if you asked her to do something for you and she refused in front of your friends, would that be disrespectful?

in Esther, the king commands...

I think it would be disrespectful for either spouse to command the other... so I think 'no' is probably a good answer to being commanded...

 

[Dan_473]

Once again we are talking about scripture and what it says not what some idiotic abusive husband might or might not do. Scripture does not tell a husband to be abusive to his wife.

very true that the scriptures don't tell husbands to be abusive...

now, there are times when a good christian woman marries a good christian man fully intending to follow the scriptures... but people don't always remain christians...

sometimes a person who started out 'good' makes some bad choices along the way...

 

[Olerica]

Can I please point out WRT Esther and Vashti the circumstances? In the 3rd year of his reign, King Xerxes threw a 180 day party to display his wealth (hey, prideful much), and at the end of the 180 days, he threw a 7 day drunken feast and every man got to drink whatever he wanted in whatever quantities. On that 7th day? THEN Xerxes called his wife, the Queen - who likely many had not seen as a woman of status was covered - and he wants to "show her off". She was instructed to wear her crown (and some scholars suggest she was to come in ONLY the crown).

IDK, I think I'd choose not to be ogled at in a room of rather drunk men, clothed or unclothed. Who knows what might happen. Even if it did mean my death and banishment, my husband should not be putting me in a place where my safety is less important than his ego as displayed in this story.

I don't know.

God did use Vashti's exit from the story to give the Jews freedom and salvation, but I don't know if I'd blame Vashti. Was she disrespecting her husband or was he disrespecting her? Drunk people don't make good decision makers in general.

 

[PoetMary]

And here we have a perfect example why 70% of young men (and growing) in Western Civilization presently refuse to marry anymore. Little miss radical feminist liberated secularist is going to learn the hard way as is any male foolish enough to become legally ensnared by her.

Me, I just want to change the law so these young secular feminists have to go to war and fight on the front lines with a rife in their hand through full tours exactly as men do in a legally mandated 50/50 ratio. Because you know, they don't need no man do the fighting and dying for them either obviously. Tag them and bag them.

Change what laws? The laws in America that say that all men have to go to war and fight....WAIT A SECOND...there are no such laws. The U.S. has a VOLUNTEER military. And plenty of women opt into it.

But wait...what about those Israeli women who are required to serve. Ooooh, yeah...that's right...those women do just fine.

I love how the response to the issue isn't to actually talk about the issue but to offer up veiled threats to women (You will be unmarryable if you insist that you are a human of equal standing....OR We'll claim that you should have to fight in a war so that you cry and insist on going home).

It's also interesting to me that any presentation of the idea that women have equal worth to God and should have equal access to education, opportunity, healthcare, etc., seems to be called "RADICAL feminism." The "radical" feminists are the lesbian separatists--you know, the ones who say that we don't really need men and the world would be better if there were no men, or that all heterosexual relations are rape, etc. I've never seen any woman on these boards make those claims.

What's "radical" about claiming that women should have a voice in government? What's radical about saying that women should have access to education and job opportunities? What's radical about suggesting that women are actual humans and shouldn't be treated as some kind of product (religious or otherwise)?

The answer....there is NOTHING radical about any of it. It might be THREATENING to some people because it pushes them out of their privileged comfort zone. Some men used to enjoy position and power simply because they were male and not because it was merited. Having to compete for these privileges is uncomfortable, perhaps. But experiencing discomfort doesn't make the righting of injustices "radical."

 

[Shannon50]

Can I please point out WRT Esther and Vashti the circumstances? In the 3rd year of his reign, King Xerxes threw a 180 day party to display his wealth (hey, prideful much), and at the end of the 180 days, he threw a 7 day drunken feast and every man got to drink whatever he wanted in whatever quantities. On that 7th day? THEN Xerxes called his wife, the Queen - who likely many had not seen as a woman of status was covered - and he wants to "show her off". She was instructed to wear her crown (and some scholars suggest she was to come in ONLY the crown).

IDK, I think I'd choose not to be ogled at in a room of rather drunk men, clothed or unclothed. Who knows what might happen. Even if it did mean my death and banishment, my husband should not be putting me in a place where my safety is less important than his ego as displayed in this story.

I don't know.

God did use Vashti's exit from the story to give the Jews freedom and salvation, but I don't know if I'd blame Vashti. Was she disrespecting her husband or was he disrespecting her? Drunk people don't make good decision makers in general.

--I think the situation with Vashti displays the King's personality, which in turn makes it even more dramatic when Mordecai won't kneel to him, and how Esther had to be so clever in how she revealed himself to him. It wasn't only about her being beautiful, because Vashti was beautiful-- it was knowing how and when to approach the king. She showed great courage, because the King was an idiot in a lot of ways.

 

[Adnil]

When I look at the example of Esther I see her obedience to her adopted father Mordecai (obey your parents,) her modesty with regards to the instruction of the Euach in charge of the concubines by choosing only what he would advise she made no assumptions regarding herself, and her obedience to the instituted law of the day (i.e. the Kings ruling that she be their in the first place.)

Thankfully as women in the west we are not culturally bound to marry the instituted leaders of the day and have more freedom of choice (at least feminism bought us that!) but ultimately I do believe In arranged marriages. Our Father God arranges them for us (if we are in need of one) and we are first to be obedient to His guidance in the matter.

I know I married the man I was supposed to but I also know, and as we both agree now, we married ahead of schedule and for that we pay the consequences. I know if I had been much stronger to resist (felt less like it was now or never) we might have gotten ahead much quicker in our career paths as well as in our relationship. Song of Songs always comes to mind, don't awaken love before its time :/

Alas it was not so and now, even while we are blessed (I think of it like His blessing Ishmael) in many ways we have a fantastic open and honest friendship, and not least we're blessed with a wonderful son. But we find ourselves in a state of being 'unequally yoked' maritally since my husbands faith waivered. I think now that had he had more time out on his own with God, as I had, he wouldn't be were he is now with persistent mental health problems. It has been a tough lesson for me personally to let him go and find his own way back to God, as I have by Gods assurance, all I can do is supply as much encouragement (and that without judgement) as I can.

I say this to you AgeofKnowledge, it takes a brave soul or a stupid one to get married with or without God (admittedly, I have been the latter) and from your statements I see you are strongly adverse to being the stupid one. I'll say I'm glad for you in this, but never forget that 'he who finds a wife finds a good thing' (proverbs)- and to marry in His will is a gift beyond measure, even I can say that. Perhaps you aren't ready to be the brave one or aren't in need of a marriage, but if the Lord brings you a women to be brave for it would be a sad story indeed if you let the pessimism of the age thwart Gods good plan for your life.

Just to clarify, my caution is primarily against the pessimism, like God couldn't give you a good marriage if He wanted to even in this day and age not your decision not to marry - which I respect.

Just a sisterly thought bro.

 

[Olerica]

Bless you for the above, Adnil. Finding a wife IS a good thing.

Sisters and Brothers, we really should be focusing on being obedient to God with regards to who he has called us to be as children of HIS, and if we are so blessed - as husbands or wives as the gender applies. We should be gracious with each other, and hard on OURSELVES. OUR OWN PLANKS must be dealt with before the specks in the other's eye.

And bless you too PoetMary. I'm not a man-hater, but I am a Jesus loving feminist (equal access to education, opportunity, healthcare, etc. I love my brothers in Christ, and I would very much like to marry again - God willing - and be a support and comfort to my husband as a Godly wife and receive from him what I should expect from a Godly husband.

 

[Mary96]

I do not compare men and women. I read the bible take out what the bible says a role of a woman is and try to apply it to my life. II Corinthians 10:12, "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and COMPARING THEMSELVES AMONG THEMSELVES, ARE NOT WISE."


God did not make Eve from one of Adam’s foot bones, for Adam to trample over; nor did He make Eve from a bone of Adam’s head, for her to rule over the man. God made Eve from a bone right out of man’s side a help meet at his side


No men and women are not equal (being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value) and they are not meant to be men and women each have different qualities that make them needed and important. That does not mean the should not be equal in the work force or in the eyes of the law.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Why is that? Because I responded to someone who said they have zero need for a man and are going to do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want without respect to what anyone else thinks about it including God because that dusty antiquated old book is outdated and tribal?

You're asserting a faulty correlation kaylagrl.

So could you describe the perfect wife for you? Because it doesn't sound to me like she exists.

 

[cmarieh]

Why is that? Because I responded to someone who said they have zero need for a man and are going to do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want without respect to what anyone else thinks about it including God because that dusty antiquated old book is outdated and tribal?

You're asserting a faulty correlation kaylagrl.

In a huge part, I fully agree with you. However, she is only fourteen and has plenty of room to mature and grow as a young woman. I know when I was fourteen I was just starting to like boys. I am praying that she will grow with so much love for God develop such a relationship with him that she realizes the truth behind a Godly marriage.

 

[zoii]

This is complete immaturity on your attitude toward the Word of God. You know I tell my wife I need her and she tells me the same. There is nothing wrong with needing someone for support and to lean on each other. Do you put God first? Do you need God or is that something that was done 2000 years ago as well and He just better stay out of your way? Your attitude is blinding you and making you bitter and hateful. Have you discussed this with your youth pastor or someone in your church? I pray that God will give you a loving and gentle heart.

I'd prefer that people here didnt get personal and attack people when they have a different view to themselves. Telling me that I am Bitter, Hateful , immature (I am 14 you know so there is that), and have an attitude you dont approve of. This isnt an argument about what you believe. I cant see why anyone here in CC thinks that a person would respond well to a personal attack after they have expressed their beliefs. Stating a belief that you intend to share a partnership and not walk behind and then be personally attacked for it by a CC member just sends alarm signals to me and doesnt inspire me at all.

 

[Shannon50]

--- there is a lovely book-- a set of books actually called "Captivating" by John and Stacey Eldridge, and "Wild At Heart". It gave me a new perspective on the feminine and masculine heart. I would suggest you read these. There is also a study available.

 

[cmarieh]

--- there is a lovely book-- a set of books actually called "Captivating" by John and Stacey Eldridge, and "Wild At Heart". It gave me a new perspective on the feminine and masculine heart. I would suggest you read these. There is also a study available.

I actually own that book and it is awesome. It really helped me understand what is going on in a man's mind and helped me understand what I am going through and why God created me. It is an awesome book

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The laws that stop women from being sent to the front line to fight, kill, and die at the same rate as men. Those slots should be opened for women and women actively recruited to fill them. And in the event of a draft, women should be forced into those dangerous infantry positions at the same rate of men and if they can't handle it, then suffer the same consequences up to and including dishonorable discharge. No gender favoritism should be extended under any circumstances whatsoever.

Women shouldn't get to sit in the rear with the gear planning their next promotion to garner greater power over men busy fighting, killing, getting wounded/maimed, and dying; and promotions, resources, etc... than the men actually making themselves disposable risking life and limb on the front line in large numbers. I want totally equality in the military and a 50/50 ratio on the battlefield. Period.

If you want to interpret that as a "veiled threat," that's your problem. I never meant it that way. For me, it's just the next step toward full equality so let's get it done.

As for your view that radical feminism is equal access to education, opportunity, healthcare, etc... I'm going to disagree. Radical feminism is a feminist effort to gain complete governmental, institutional, and cultural power over non-females for the benefit of females.

This is presently disguised in "progressivism" as an effort to use the government, institutions, and culture to radically reorder society to eliminate every vestige of "male supremacy" in every possible context. But the entire feminist movement has morphed into a form of socio-political female supremacy.

Obviously the above has nothing to do with your comments about rape, separatism, access to education or the job market, etc... I never even mentioned that. Don't project it at me. Since it's in your head, and not mine, you get to own that.

What I'm talking about is cutting women off from being able to use government, institutions, cultural stigma, etc... to exploit men for their labor, resources, protection, etc...

The only injustice I see is women gaining political power to change the rule of law so the government will be their "Big Brother" police officer to exploit men, on their behalf. This especially true if a male makes the mistake of saying "I do."

Well I do NOT. Go it alone, on your own two feet, and stop using the government to exploit males. Trying to frame that as some kind of an effort for justice is delusional. It's systemic exploitation of men by women plain and simple.

Any male that contractually places themselves under a body of law which allows the government to legally deprive them of their natural human rights, liberty [up to and including incarceration in the nation's penal system], power, resources, progeny, etc... for years and possibly even the rest of their natural life is a fool.

But men are waking up to this female supremacy disguised as feminism and seeing through the smoke screen to what awaits them in the radical feminist new order under our progressively anti-male society and saying, "I don't."

It's the only rational way forward for men. Do it yourselves women. We owe you NOTHING and we purpose to give you NOTHING. Molon Labe.

Change what laws? The laws in America that say that all men have to go to war and fight....WAIT A SECOND...there are no such laws. The U.S. has a VOLUNTEER military. And plenty of women opt into it.

But wait...what about those Israeli women who are required to serve. Ooooh, yeah...that's right...those women do just fine.

I love how the response to the issue isn't to actually talk about the issue but to offer up veiled threats to women (You will be unmarryable if you insist that you are a human of equal standing....OR We'll claim that you should have to fight in a war so that you cry and insist on going home).

It's also interesting to me that any presentation of the idea that women have equal worth to God and should have equal access to education, opportunity, healthcare, etc., seems to be called "RADICAL feminism." The "radical" feminists are the lesbian separatists--you know, the ones who say that we don't really need men and the world would be better if there were no men, or that all heterosexual relations are rape, etc. I've never seen any woman on these boards make those claims.

What's "radical" about claiming that women should have a voice in government? What's radical about saying that women should have access to education and job opportunities? What's radical about suggesting that women are actual humans and shouldn't be treated as some kind of product (religious or otherwise)?

The answer....there is NOTHING radical about any of it. It might be THREATENING to some people because it pushes them out of their privileged comfort zone. Some men used to enjoy position and power simply because they were male and not because it was merited. Having to compete for these privileges is uncomfortable, perhaps. But experiencing discomfort doesn't make the righting of injustices "radical."

 

[Olerica]

You scare me, AgeofKnowledge.

 

[CeileDe]

Actually they just tried to send 20 women to Ranger School and all of them failed.