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K
Here is part of what the Strong's and Thayer's Greek Lexicon says about the usage of perfect (teleios) used in 1 Corinthians 13:10;
the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Corinthians 13:10
It says the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by Jesus return, meaning perfect love ushered in after Jesus return where all wickedness, sorrow, sadness, and sin done away with............
K
I am not fired up at all as I am very calm and confident on what the chapter and verse says.
I just posted it the way I did to make the context of the chapter stand out to easily be seen, because it seems like some want to continue to interject things that do not belong in this passage.
FancyNancy gave you the standard definition of the Greek word teleios, and in post #162 I gave the usage of the word from the Strong's and Thayers Greek study guides. They show it refers to the perfect state of all things !!!
G
What gets overlooked in this verse is the "Partial." And it is THE noun. So the "partial" passes away. And "Partial" is a noun and it is in the neuter Gender, so "perfect" the adjective is also in the neuter Gender.
So "Partial" is the Noun in the verse. And it will pass away. So we need to fit in what the 'Partial' is.
" partial love" passes way?
" partial Christ" passes away?
" partial church" passes away?
"partial canon"passes away?
The "partial" is the noun. The "perfect" is the adjective. They are both in the NEUTER gender and the NEUTER gender can ONLY apply to the ITEM of the completed scriptures.
New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
So "Partial" is the Noun in the verse. And it will pass away. So we need to fit in what the 'Partial' is.
" partial love" passes way?
" partial Christ" passes away?
" partial church" passes away?
"partial canon"passes away?
The "partial" is the noun. The "perfect" is the adjective. They are both in the NEUTER gender and the NEUTER gender can ONLY apply to the ITEM of the completed scriptures.
New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
This little twisted scripture says NOTHING clear at all about the gifts ceasing during the Church Age.
Gr8grace, let's SUPPOSE for a minute you were correct. Let's say they DID cease. Paul is speaking to the church at Corinth, a church with ALL sorts of abuses of gifts & other problems. We know that Paul taught ALL the churches about judiazers..... Jews that mixed OT law with NT teachings This was a chronic problem throughout the churches.
Now, what do you suppose would happen in the Corinthian church if cessation were true? This church that abused the gifts would STILL be abusing the gifts by continued practice, even though Paul told them when the "perfect" comes the partial would be done away.
Under those circumstances, with this young church's abuses and all, I believe Paul would have said more than an unclear sentence about it.He would have drove his point home, being afraid a new "ism" would arise in the church, one just as bad as the Judiazers. The rebellious "continuation" of the gifts would have put this church in a terrible situation, deserving complete condemnation of the practice by the apostle. He would have said something like:
Beloved, seeing that the "completion" of God's word is soon approaching, see that you no longer practice these "gifts" any longer, for they will no longer be needed. When the Word is "complete", don't let these things become a stumblingblock to hinder the work of Christ in you. Go on to maturity & leave them behind."
Can't you see this spiritual father giving complete warning to the church about this? You know Paul wouldn't have done it any other way than an open warning...... that was his way.
Paul NEVER told ANY of the churches this..... He would never have let this teaching slip through the cracks if it were true.
Gr8grace, let's SUPPOSE for a minute you were correct. Let's say they DID cease. Paul is speaking to the church at Corinth, a church with ALL sorts of abuses of gifts & other problems. We know that Paul taught ALL the churches about judiazers..... Jews that mixed OT law with NT teachings This was a chronic problem throughout the churches.
Now, what do you suppose would happen in the Corinthian church if cessation were true? This church that abused the gifts would STILL be abusing the gifts by continued practice, even though Paul told them when the "perfect" comes the partial would be done away.
Under those circumstances, with this young church's abuses and all, I believe Paul would have said more than an unclear sentence about it.He would have drove his point home, being afraid a new "ism" would arise in the church, one just as bad as the Judiazers. The rebellious "continuation" of the gifts would have put this church in a terrible situation, deserving complete condemnation of the practice by the apostle. He would have said something like:
Beloved, seeing that the "completion" of God's word is soon approaching, see that you no longer practice these "gifts" any longer, for they will no longer be needed. When the Word is "complete", don't let these things become a stumblingblock to hinder the work of Christ in you. Go on to maturity & leave them behind."
Can't you see this spiritual father giving complete warning to the church about this? You know Paul wouldn't have done it any other way than an open warning...... that was his way.
Paul NEVER told ANY of the churches this..... He would never have let this teaching slip through the cracks if it were true.
What is funny is the fact that the only church who had an issue with this and of the which it is even mentioned to is the childish, immature Corinthian church which had some 16 particular things wrong with it....in essence people who push this, believe this and practice this say to the world they are immature babes in Christ...Paul in the very verses that YOU twist states that they are childish things that were put away when he became an adult....and that he would rather speak 5 words that can be understood than 10000 words of some mumbo jumbo that did not mean a thing.....You say you promote scripture right...how do you deal with the fact that most of the time it is women doing this and the bible tells women to keep silent in church and to not usurp authority over a man to teach in the assembly??????????? Let me guess.....I bet you don't keep silent do you?
G
This why the original language is an important tool. This Did't slip through the cracks to Corinthians. They knew what Paul was saying.
And I can't use this verse for the cessation of tongues. I would sure like to, but tongues clearly were for the unbelieving Jew. Israel was Gods client nation to dispense the Gospel to others(they had quit). So God went to the Gentiles and Israel was dispersed as a nation in 70 A.D.
What do you make of the neuter gender of "perfect" and "partial" in the verse in question?
And I can't use this verse for the cessation of tongues. I would sure like to, but tongues clearly were for the unbelieving Jew. Israel was Gods client nation to dispense the Gospel to others(they had quit). So God went to the Gentiles and Israel was dispersed as a nation in 70 A.D.
What do you make of the neuter gender of "perfect" and "partial" in the verse in question?
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John 3:8
8The wind[SUP]e[/SUP] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
We don't stand in line in a Charismatic church and receive the Holy Spirit, like shopping for a hat because it doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. We receive the Word and gospel of our salvation coupled with faith.
Romans 10:8-13
8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Hebrews 4:2
For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
To those who think they got the "Spirit" by standing in line at a church of babbling Charismatics you have been beguiled just like the infants in Christ in Corinth were. They were beguiled almost 2000 years ago by the devil disguising himself as an angel of light. They were mislead by evil men and received a recompense for not having faith in God alone to save them.
What fruits of the "Spirit" do you display? love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control?
Rarely is this seen by those who claim to have the "Spirit" although they do not have the anointing of His Holy Spirit. They are filthy dreamers and those who babble like pagans, friends of the world and enemies of God.
To those who make their boast in men and received the "Spirit" tell us how you have been separated from the world and set apart by God our Father in Christ Jesus and in His Holy Spirit. Having heard the Word coupled with faith. Faith in God and not in men.
Matthew 6:5-8
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
The word "tongues" spoken by the Holy Spirit in Paul when addressing the Corinthians means languages.This has never been about babbling like pagans as seen by those who practice such things today. It is about speaking in another language while being moved by the Holy Spirit to those of a different language who when listening to the Word can understand the gospel of their salvation being brought to them in their own tongue.
Acts 2:6-11
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
8The wind[SUP]e[/SUP] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
We don't stand in line in a Charismatic church and receive the Holy Spirit, like shopping for a hat because it doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. We receive the Word and gospel of our salvation coupled with faith.
Romans 10:8-13
8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Hebrews 4:2
For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
To those who think they got the "Spirit" by standing in line at a church of babbling Charismatics you have been beguiled just like the infants in Christ in Corinth were. They were beguiled almost 2000 years ago by the devil disguising himself as an angel of light. They were mislead by evil men and received a recompense for not having faith in God alone to save them.
What fruits of the "Spirit" do you display? love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control?
Rarely is this seen by those who claim to have the "Spirit" although they do not have the anointing of His Holy Spirit. They are filthy dreamers and those who babble like pagans, friends of the world and enemies of God.
To those who make their boast in men and received the "Spirit" tell us how you have been separated from the world and set apart by God our Father in Christ Jesus and in His Holy Spirit. Having heard the Word coupled with faith. Faith in God and not in men.
Matthew 6:5-8
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
The word "tongues" spoken by the Holy Spirit in Paul when addressing the Corinthians means languages.This has never been about babbling like pagans as seen by those who practice such things today. It is about speaking in another language while being moved by the Holy Spirit to those of a different language who when listening to the Word can understand the gospel of their salvation being brought to them in their own tongue.
Acts 2:6-11
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
J
I have some questions. To preface, I've never in my life attended a church where there was jumping up and down and dancing, people smacked on the head, rolling on the floor and convulsing, babbling, barking like dogs or in group paroxysms of laughter. These are things I've seen on television or online, or heard on the radio, and I'm not saying anybody's church is doing all these things (but, if one Spirit, in truth, why not?), neither have I been to such churches to know what goes on in all such congregations. But I have attended many churches, where there is none of this, and pastors that faithfully understand and preach truth of the word of God, really, really know scripture, therefore have the Holy Spirit to understand and rightly divide the word of God.
Why is one congregation saying it has something special of the Holy Spirit other churches don't? Why are they special to God? Also, I've not seen proof of babbling in the Bible. Just asking, as it makes no sense to me the Holy Spirt is a respecter of persons and manifest radically different between churches. Do you who believe in this emotionally charged behavior believe the churches that are orderly are lacking your spirit or some holiness, are forlorn of God? If so, why do the pastors and congregation understand the word of God, which is spiritually discerned, so we do have the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't at least some of us have convulsions or something? These are honest questions, in a matter I can't make sense of, this, as if, Holy Spirit coming in different flavors, depending on which roof people are under.
Why is one congregation saying it has something special of the Holy Spirit other churches don't? Why are they special to God? Also, I've not seen proof of babbling in the Bible. Just asking, as it makes no sense to me the Holy Spirt is a respecter of persons and manifest radically different between churches. Do you who believe in this emotionally charged behavior believe the churches that are orderly are lacking your spirit or some holiness, are forlorn of God? If so, why do the pastors and congregation understand the word of God, which is spiritually discerned, so we do have the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't at least some of us have convulsions or something? These are honest questions, in a matter I can't make sense of, this, as if, Holy Spirit coming in different flavors, depending on which roof people are under.
again I am not upset but you are suggesting Paul said they( tongues) have ceased. Please provide the verse which states they have ceased after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD? and not all of the writing of the New testament were completed in 70 AD so..... was tongues still used by John the Apostle who's writing were completed after 70 AD? So to take you position we would have to agree the Apostle John's writing's coming after 70 AD were not Inspired.
Let's read 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 :L
Let's read 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 :L
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“Charity (or Love) never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be DONE AWAY.[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]When I was a child, I SPOKE as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I PUT AWAY childish things.[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even also as I am known.[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]And now abides faith, hope, and charity, these three, but the greatest of these is charity.”
[/FONT]Now those that teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed away or have ceased INTERPRET the phrase,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“...that which is PERFECT is come...”
to be the [/FONT]the BIBLE. So if your point about 70 AD is correct then the prophesies recorded in REV and the words of The Apostle John can not be Authoritative. in The text 1cor 13 "[FONT=times new roman,serif]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be DONE AWAY."
[/FONT]However, if we consider the WHOLE CONTEXT of this passage of scripture and let SCRIPTURE interpret scripture, then we will clearly see that that which is PERFECT is come is speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ and NOT the Bible. Please read 1 Corinthians 13 and verse 12 which says:
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“For NOW we see through a glass darkly (or NOW we know in part), BUT THEN (then when? When that which is PERFECT is COME) face to face: NOW I know in part; BUT THEN (when we see Jesus as he is, face to face) I shall KNOW even as ALSO I am KNOWN.”
[/FONT]You see, right NOW it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that WHEN Jesus, that PERFECT man who lived without sin, shall COME we shall be LIKE him, because we shall SEE him AS HE IS in person FACE TO FACE, and THEN we shall no longer know IN PART, because we shall KNOW EVEN as ALSO we are KNOWN. lets read 1 John 3:2"written"after 70 AD that says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“Now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be (in other words, we do not know totally what it is going to be like, we only know IN PART): but we know (or but this much we do know) that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (in other words, we may not know it all BUT at least we know this PART, that we shall be like him when he COMES and we SEE him face to face).”
more ? ok [/FONT]Then the very next verse says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“And every man that has this HOPE in him (or ABIDING in him) purifies himself, EVEN as he is PURE.”
[/FONT]Now please notice what 1 Corinthians 13:13 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“And NOW ABIDES (in us) FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY, these three, but the greatest of these is CHARITY (or LOVE).”[/FONT]
Don't you see in the Lord that it takes ALL THREE ABIDING in us in order to empower us to purify ourselves EVEN as Jesus is PURE?First of all it takes HOPE or the direction and desire to set our affections upon. Without HOPE there would be no direction in our lives whatsoever. HOPE gives us a VISION to pursue.And from HOPE springs forth FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“Now FAITH is the SUBSTANCE (or the ground or confidence) of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.”
[/FONT]Then Hebrews 11:6 goes on to tell us that WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. And that first we must BELIEVE that God is, or that God exists and then that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him.And then it takes LOVE the greatest of all for us to have in order to use our faith productively for God, because FAITH works BY love.
Galatians 5:6 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH that WORKS BY LOVE.”
[/FONT]
[/FONT]Now those that teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed away or have ceased INTERPRET the phrase,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“...that which is PERFECT is come...”
to be the [/FONT]the BIBLE. So if your point about 70 AD is correct then the prophesies recorded in REV and the words of The Apostle John can not be Authoritative. in The text 1cor 13 "[FONT=times new roman,serif]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be DONE AWAY."
[/FONT]However, if we consider the WHOLE CONTEXT of this passage of scripture and let SCRIPTURE interpret scripture, then we will clearly see that that which is PERFECT is come is speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ and NOT the Bible. Please read 1 Corinthians 13 and verse 12 which says:
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“For NOW we see through a glass darkly (or NOW we know in part), BUT THEN (then when? When that which is PERFECT is COME) face to face: NOW I know in part; BUT THEN (when we see Jesus as he is, face to face) I shall KNOW even as ALSO I am KNOWN.”
[/FONT]You see, right NOW it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that WHEN Jesus, that PERFECT man who lived without sin, shall COME we shall be LIKE him, because we shall SEE him AS HE IS in person FACE TO FACE, and THEN we shall no longer know IN PART, because we shall KNOW EVEN as ALSO we are KNOWN. lets read 1 John 3:2"written"after 70 AD that says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“Now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be (in other words, we do not know totally what it is going to be like, we only know IN PART): but we know (or but this much we do know) that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (in other words, we may not know it all BUT at least we know this PART, that we shall be like him when he COMES and we SEE him face to face).”
more ? ok [/FONT]Then the very next verse says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“And every man that has this HOPE in him (or ABIDING in him) purifies himself, EVEN as he is PURE.”
[/FONT]Now please notice what 1 Corinthians 13:13 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“And NOW ABIDES (in us) FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY, these three, but the greatest of these is CHARITY (or LOVE).”[/FONT]
Don't you see in the Lord that it takes ALL THREE ABIDING in us in order to empower us to purify ourselves EVEN as Jesus is PURE?First of all it takes HOPE or the direction and desire to set our affections upon. Without HOPE there would be no direction in our lives whatsoever. HOPE gives us a VISION to pursue.And from HOPE springs forth FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“Now FAITH is the SUBSTANCE (or the ground or confidence) of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.”
[/FONT]Then Hebrews 11:6 goes on to tell us that WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. And that first we must BELIEVE that God is, or that God exists and then that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him.And then it takes LOVE the greatest of all for us to have in order to use our faith productively for God, because FAITH works BY love.
Galatians 5:6 says,
[FONT=times new roman,serif]“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH that WORKS BY LOVE.”
[/FONT]
You see, my brothers and sisters in the Lord, Paul opens up chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians by telling us that WITHOUT LOVE we are NOTHING. Let's read 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 to gain a better understanding of the very verses in question, which are 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 that are used to try and prove that the gift of other tongues has CEASED.
A CLOSER look at the CONTEXT of this controversial passage of scripture will clearly show to those seeking only the truth will see that Paul is NOT teaching against speaking in other tongues, but rather Paul is instructing those that speak in tongues to make sure that their MOTIVE is right or that they are speaking in other tongues in LOVE. Please carefully read 1Corinthians 13 verses 1-3 and notice that without love THEN speaking in other tongues BECOME useless and profit us nothing. In other words, Paul is ONLY condemning the speaking in tongues WHEN the speaking in tongues is NOT done or spoken IN LOVE.
A CLOSER look at the CONTEXT of this controversial passage of scripture will clearly show to those seeking only the truth will see that Paul is NOT teaching against speaking in other tongues, but rather Paul is instructing those that speak in tongues to make sure that their MOTIVE is right or that they are speaking in other tongues in LOVE. Please carefully read 1Corinthians 13 verses 1-3 and notice that without love THEN speaking in other tongues BECOME useless and profit us nothing. In other words, Paul is ONLY condemning the speaking in tongues WHEN the speaking in tongues is NOT done or spoken IN LOVE.
In order for cessationism to be true, we must be in the millennial reign of Christ, about 1,930 years past it to be exact. During this time we have:
The RCC, supposedly the "true church" that kills everyone that doesn't agree with them..... for centuries.
The crusades..... where exactly was Jesus reigning at the time?
WWI, WWII, all the wars between England & France, or was it Spain? So many wars, so little reigning.
Man-made epidemics, the black plague, & other viral atrocities..... why wasn't it stopped?
Saying this time is the millennial reign of Christ is absolute heresy, blasphemous, & a slap in the face to Jesus' name & reputation..... but the cessationists don't care, as long as they're right. They will continue to argue till Jesus comes..... oh, wait, they have maybe seven more years to argue after the rapture, too.
The RCC, supposedly the "true church" that kills everyone that doesn't agree with them..... for centuries.
The crusades..... where exactly was Jesus reigning at the time?
WWI, WWII, all the wars between England & France, or was it Spain? So many wars, so little reigning.
Man-made epidemics, the black plague, & other viral atrocities..... why wasn't it stopped?
Saying this time is the millennial reign of Christ is absolute heresy, blasphemous, & a slap in the face to Jesus' name & reputation..... but the cessationists don't care, as long as they're right. They will continue to argue till Jesus comes..... oh, wait, they have maybe seven more years to argue after the rapture, too.
In order for cessationism to be true, we must be in the millennial reign of Christ, about 1,930 years past it to be exact. During this time we have:
The RCC, supposedly the "true church" that kills everyone that doesn't agree with them..... for centuries.
The crusades..... where exactly was Jesus reigning at the time?
WWI, WWII, all the wars between England & France, or was it Spain? So many wars, so little reigning.
Man-made epidemics, the black plague, & other viral atrocities..... why didn't Jesus stop them?
Saying this time is the millennial reign of Christ is absolute heresy, blasphemous, & a slap in the face to Jesus' name & reputation..... but the cessationists don't care, as long as they're right. They will continue to argue till Jesus comes..... oh, wait, maybe seven more years after that.
The RCC, supposedly the "true church" that kills everyone that doesn't agree with them..... for centuries.
The crusades..... where exactly was Jesus reigning at the time?
WWI, WWII, all the wars between England & France, or was it Spain? So many wars, so little reigning.
Man-made epidemics, the black plague, & other viral atrocities..... why didn't Jesus stop them?
Saying this time is the millennial reign of Christ is absolute heresy, blasphemous, & a slap in the face to Jesus' name & reputation..... but the cessationists don't care, as long as they're right. They will continue to argue till Jesus comes..... oh, wait, maybe seven more years after that.
This is simply gobbledygook made up to defend your false position.
It's really simple! We will know all things and be complete in Christ when He comes.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
Do you really believe that the bible is what brings us "perfect clarity"? Look around here and see how feeble that argument is!
It's really simple! We will know all things and be complete in Christ when He comes.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
Do you really believe that the bible is what brings us "perfect clarity"? Look around here and see how feeble that argument is!
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You may be correct here. Even so, it is still irrevelent, for the scripture has the absolute answer of what the "partial" and the "perfect" really is.
Romans 8:19-23 (NASB) [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope [SUP]21 [/SUP]that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit,[partial] even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body [complete].
In other words, we are waiting for the day that we will be changed completely as the Sons of God, & no longer have to put up with these fleshly, carnal bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV) [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be[partial]. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him,[perfect] because we will see Him just as He is.
The partial will pass away when the church puts on immortality.
Romans 8:19-23 (NASB) [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope [SUP]21 [/SUP]that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit,[partial] even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body [complete].
In other words, we are waiting for the day that we will be changed completely as the Sons of God, & no longer have to put up with these fleshly, carnal bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV) [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be[partial]. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him,[perfect] because we will see Him just as He is.
The partial will pass away when the church puts on immortality.
These are honest questions, and deserve honest answers. The problem is satan, and his fallen humanity. satan is against anything of God, particularly things that can be used against him. And he's a deceiver - so he'll take things of God and pollute them. He'll mimic them, he'll falsify them, he'll muddy the waters and out right deny them. he'll take any and all avenues at his disposal to interfere with the things of God. Particularly ones that can be used against him.
And we as humans just eat it up. All of it. Until we're the lost confused masses you see before you today. And who's the author of confusion? Riiight. Paul says in cases like this to stick with what he taught. And given the confusion, I don't think we can say the perfection he taught of has come yet.
One of those gifts that hasn't ceased is discernment. You don't need the Holy Spirit to go bonkers. In fact, you might need the Holy Spirit to discern what's bonkers. I know a lot of Pastors who don't speak in tongues who see much clearer than many who do. It's not a panacea, it's another tool in God's toolbox that's all. And yeah you can spin a nut with a crescent wrench, but sometimes a socket works better. Why limit yourself to the wrench?
It must be orderly. With interpretation in public (one church I attended insisted that someone who felt led to speak approach leadership, as well as any who felt led to interpret, so the word could be confirmed and prayed over). Anything beyond that is exaggerated. Otherwise it is to be spoken in private, without fanfare. Because in private is usually where you find unspeakable things.
Hope this helps. Bless you for honestly asking, may God honor your faith.
And we as humans just eat it up. All of it. Until we're the lost confused masses you see before you today. And who's the author of confusion? Riiight. Paul says in cases like this to stick with what he taught. And given the confusion, I don't think we can say the perfection he taught of has come yet.
One of those gifts that hasn't ceased is discernment. You don't need the Holy Spirit to go bonkers. In fact, you might need the Holy Spirit to discern what's bonkers. I know a lot of Pastors who don't speak in tongues who see much clearer than many who do. It's not a panacea, it's another tool in God's toolbox that's all. And yeah you can spin a nut with a crescent wrench, but sometimes a socket works better. Why limit yourself to the wrench?
It must be orderly. With interpretation in public (one church I attended insisted that someone who felt led to speak approach leadership, as well as any who felt led to interpret, so the word could be confirmed and prayed over). Anything beyond that is exaggerated. Otherwise it is to be spoken in private, without fanfare. Because in private is usually where you find unspeakable things.
Hope this helps. Bless you for honestly asking, may God honor your faith.