Christians vs Jews?

[p_rehbein]

Please elaborate.

If it wasn't for God, we would not have a Savior. However, I understand that she is saying that God chose the bloodline of Israel to be His pathway to sending the Savior to the world. At least I believe this is what she is saying, and I'm good with that, because Scripture does support this belief.

 

[p_rehbein]

Paul states in Romans 11 “God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” (Please note that it is God who has done this.)

Paul goes on to say in the same chapter, “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!”

Why did our Father do this?

“For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”
Romans 11.

Do not omit verse 23 as do so very many others.........please.

 

[Alextor]

Do not omit verse 23 as do so very many others.........please.

I did not omit, nor did I give any verse number, just the chapter number. This was done to encourage the reader to read the whole chapter of Romans 11. Thank You.

 

[p_rehbein]

I did not omit, nor did I give any verse number, just the chapter number. This was done to encourage the reader to read the whole chapter of Romans 11. Thank You.

........just wish you had included it in your comment...........just saying

.........and they should first read Chapter 10 please...........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You continue in your double speak method or responses.............say one thing one time, say another, another time, then say someone else is saying such.

Exhibit 1:

So you ASSUME that the All isreal would include those ho die in unbelief? how could this be. when we are tild it will not happen until a specific time in the future. Would it not (if we are thinking logically) mean that everyone alive at THAT TIME will repent, and be saved (as the OT prophets claim they will)

Exhibit 2:

How could "all Isreal" be saved unless they repented (which is also the condition for restoration in Lev 26)


Exhibit 3:

Yep. and probably a million more will die in rejection of Christ before they repent as a nation.

Funny how you agree with the stipulation. yet missed the most important part.

1. When it will happen - [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

2. What will happen - [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”



3. What Paul and God thinks of Israel worldwide - [SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Of course if you want to continue to argue that the church as a group of people has replaced israel as a group of people, then you can keep trying to argue, but you will have to prove it in context of what is being said, Sorry, Context does not support your view in my mind,, nor does Paul

The very definition of double speak. You argue against yourself to prove your wisdom and others ignorance. Go ahead, argue against yourself.......let me know who wins......

Dude, your so hell bent on proving yourself right, all you keep doing is making a fool of yourself. (sorry if this is harsh, I do not know how else to say it to get my point across, especially when someone is openly and pridefully continues to claim I am saying something I HAVE NEVER SAID.

There is no double speak there, only in your brain (because again you so hell bent on proving me wrong and you right)

according to scripture. there will be a point of time, when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled (see daniel)

At this time in earths history. something will occur which will cause Isreals eyes to be opened, and they will finally see Christ for who he really was (there messiah) who came to save them from their sins, and restore the kingdom to them.

Until that time, Paul is telling US GENTILES not to be so puffed up in pride that God grafted us in and cut them off. seems like some of us gentiles (like yourself) want to continue to puff yourself up. and refuse to humble yourself and admit yoi may be wrong (or in the case of what your claiming I have said, am saying, or probably will say, you ARE WRONG!)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not omit, nor did I give any verse number, just the chapter number. This was done to encourage the reader to read the whole chapter of Romans 11. Thank You.

yep they need to read the whole chapter. not just a few verses, including vs 23. which does not support their position. that Gods promises made to abraham, Isaac and Jacob are no longer valid according to lev 26. Which paul made clear in vs 29 are not only still valid, but still in effect.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

And this comes after Paul has made clear who ARE Israel, God's olive tree (Jer 11.16). The true Israel in God's eyes consisted of believing Jews, and Gentiles who have been grafted in, plus any Jews who later repent and believe, and it EXCLUDES unbelieving Israel. Thus the ALL ISRAEL who will be saved are the olive tree. That is why he included the fullness of the Gentiles.[/B][/I]

All Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel and become part of the true Israel, AS GENTILES HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABE TO DO.

Your problem is with what Paul said. In chapter 11 he separates all jew and gentile. The jews became blind, the gentiles were grafted in (even though there will still many jews who believed, and most gentiles still rejected)

I think its YOUR problem He follows chronologically what actually HAPPENED. With the coming of the Messiah those who rejected Him were cut off from the olive tree. That left the olive tree consisting of believing Israel, the remnant of Israel as prophesied. This was now the true Israel. Then outwardly believing Gentiles were grafted in. Thus they now became a part of Israel.

And paul made it clear. unbelieving jews were still part of the elect (not saved)

what an extraordinary statement. the whole point is that unbelieving Israel were no longer 'the elect'. The elect were the believing portion of Israel (9.6, 13, 23-24, 27; 11.5-7 the election; 11.28 the election). Nowhere in the whole three chapters does Paul call unbelieving Israel 'the elect'.

and one day in the future, all Israel would be saved. Because God made a promise to them, HE NEVER MADE TO ANY GENTILE.

You just don't know your Biblical history. 'The Jews' consisted of a wide variety of descent, some from Jacob, some from the many servants of Abraham/Jacob (Gen 14.14); some from the mixed multitude (Ex 11.38); some from proselytes who continually joined Israel (Ex 12.48). Some who were converted Edomites under Hyrcanus. Some who were converted Galilean Gentiles (under Aristobulus). They were by no means all descended from Jacob. The Jews were a mixed race. Thus when Gentiles believed in the Messiah they BECAME ISRAELITES.The promises made to Israel were made to BELIEVING ISRAEL, the remnant (Rom 9.27-28). The others were rejected for rejecting the Messiah.

Yep. and the elected are those who reject. thats why were are to love them. Because GODS GIFT AND CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.

But unbelieving Israel were NOT called in that way. The election in Paul are BELIEVING ISRAEL. He says so. That was the test of who was elected. The election obtained it and the rest were blinded (11.7). That God's gifts and calling were irrevocable was proved because the foreknown ones of Israel, the remnant. received them (11.1-7).

Throughout their history the vast majority in Israel were REJECTED. Gods calling was not irrevocable for them. The unbelieving Jews in Jesus' day were rejected. God's calling was not irrevocable for them. The unbelieving Jews in 70 AD were rejected. God's calling was not irrevocable for them. HE REVOKED IT AS HE HAD WARNED (Numbers 14.12).

And do you think that the ungodly, unbelieving, bunch of rogues who call themselves Israel today (many of whom were not descended from Jacob) are somehow different?

You prople make this a salvation issue, thats your problem. it is not a salvation issue, never has been a salvation issue, Paul made this clear in romans 9. being a natural jew never saved anyone, never has, never will.

PRECISELY. Being a natural Jew never saved anyone and never will. Unless they seek the Messiah they will all likewise perish. And if they DO seek the Messiah they will be grafted back into the church, the true Israel. It is the church, the true Israel, who inherit the promises.

Bit God did not make a mistake, His promises to them still stand, He does not go back on his promises. if he does. we are ALL IN TROUBLE. because non of us deserve eternal life.

Of course His promises still stand, His promises to His TRUE PEOPLE. We know that we have eternal life because we ARE His true people and inheriting the promises!!!! As will ALL who come to believe in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile. No salvation or election outside of Christ.

 

[Danel]

A true Christian is a Jew. And a true Jew is a christian.


If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, (Romans 10:12)

The enemy seeks to divide and weaken us. He has turned Isreal and the church against eachother. But this was never meant to be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think its YOUR problem He follows chronologically what actually HAPPENED. With the coming of the Messiah those who rejected Him were cut off from the olive tree. That left the olive tree consisting of believing Israel, the remnant of Israel as prophesied. This was now the true Israel. Then outwardly believing Gentiles were grafted in. Thus they now became a part of Israel.

No. While I agree with you time line up to this point I do not believe Gentiles because part of Israel. Again, Paul said in chpater 9 there is no jew or greek, free or slave, we are become the body of Christ, Not israel. Abraham was not even a part of Israel. he was a gentile. ONE of his sons is the first of the nation of Israel.

Abraham is the father of MANY nations, not just one. And all nations have been blessed because of him (through Christ)

what an extraordinary statement. the whole point is that unbelieving Israel were no longer 'the elect'. The elect were the believing portion of Israel (9.6, 13, 23-24, 27; 11.5-7 the election; 11.28 the election).

Nowhere in the whole three chapters does Paul call unbelieving Israel 'the elect'.

lol. Thats your opinion. which I must disagree with. Why would paul call the unbelieving jews beloeved because of the promises and gifts given to the fathers?

And why did he not call any Gentile (saved or not) a part of this group?

You just don't know your Biblical history. 'The Jews' consisted of a wide variety of descent, some from Jacob, some from the many servants of Abraham/Jacob (Gen 14.14); some from the mixed multitude (Ex 11.38); some from proselytes who continually joined Israel (Ex 12.48). Some who were converted Edomites under Hyrcanus. Some who were converted Galilean Gentiles (under Aristobulus). They were by no means all descended from Jacob. The Jews were a mixed race. Thus when Gentiles believed in the Messiah they BECAME ISRAELITES.The promises made to Israel were made to BELIEVING ISRAEL, the remnant (Rom 9.27-28). The others were rejected for rejecting the Messiah.

No You do not know your history. These gentiles had to convert to Israel by following the covenant laws to be part of the blessings of Israel. It never made any of them saved, there were mixed jews in Jesus day who were never saved, and never got saved.

I do not believe you understand the covenant theology very well. and what the differences were.

But unbelieving Israel were NOT called in that way. The election in Paul are BELIEVING ISRAEL. He says so. That was the test of who was elected. The election obtained it and the rest were blinded (11.7). That God's gifts and calling were irrevocable was proved because the foreknown ones of Israel, the remnant. received them (11.1-7).

Throughout their history the vast majority in Israel were REJECTED. Gods calling was not irrevocable for them. The unbelieving Jews in Jesus' day were rejected. God's calling was not irrevocable for them. The unbelieving Jews in 70 AD were rejected. God's calling was not irrevocable for them. HE REVOKED IT AS HE HAD WARNED (Numbers 14.12).

Yet, in Pauls writting of Romans 11. He stated in a future event (which had not occured in pauls day yet) something would occure, and a future deliverer will come and remove the blindness of Israel, and they will all get saved (we know this event to be the future return of Christ)

God had not restored Isreal since they were first removed by the babylonians (yes he allowed them back in their land, but HE NEVER RESTORED THEM, they WERE SLAVES to babylon, then media persia, then greece, then rome, until 70 AD. even until this day, they have yet to be restored (thus pauls prophesy of future Israel is still not fulfilled)

not to mention so many OT prophets claim they will repent and be restored.

And do you think that the ungodly, unbelieving, bunch of rogues who call themselves Israel today (many of whom were not descended from Jacob) are somehow different?

No I don,t nor do I believe they will get to heaven, unless they repent. And I wish you people would stop claiming I think otherwise, BECAUSE YOUR BEARING FALSE WITNESS every time you do.

Last I read, the ten commandments claim bearing false witness is a sin!

PRECISELY. Being a natural Jew never saved anyone and never will. Unless they seek the Messiah they will all likewise perish. And if they DO seek the Messiah they will be grafted back into the church, the true Israel. It is the church, the true Israel, who inherit the promises.

Of course His promises still stand, His promises to His TRUE PEOPLE. We know that we have eternal life because we ARE His true people and inheriting the promises!!!! As will ALL who come to believe in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile. No salvation or election outside of Christ.

Oh so the promise of Isreal living in peace in the land of Isreal cannan) with the son of david on his throne and ruling the world from that throne, and all gentile nations praising the God of Israel and comming to worship the king is happening today?

God has a funny way of fulfilling prophesy. He might as well be a pagan God. we can spiritualise their prophesies and make them come true also.

The promise of eternal life was Given to Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah and all those who never heard of Isreal.

The promise did not change with the formation of Isreal. it was just part of Gods plan.

And it does not change today.

I did not become a part of Isreal. I became a child of God alongside adam and eve and noah and all the others (jew or gentile) who recieved Gods plan of salvation.

You thinking to much into it, and not seeing it for what it is, Thats the only explanation I can think of as to why you can not see it.

 

[PeterJens]

A true Christian is a Jew. And a true Jew is a christian.

The reason why this language is miss-leading is messianic jews, who feel you should be a jew and then a christian.
The reason the apostles had such a hard time is to be a jew is to submit to the law and the national identity of Israel, which is what Paul preached against, was just going back to legalism.

In my mind it is best to say the body of Christ, the church is the fulfillment of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason why this language is miss-leading is messianic jews, who feel you should be a jew and then a christian.
The reason the apostles had such a hard time is to be a jew is to submit to the law and the national identity of Israel, which is what Paul preached against, was just going back to legalism.

In my mind it is best to say the body of Christ, the church is the fulfillment of Israel.

I agree.

I am not a jew, there is no jew or gentile as scripture says, those terms paul tried to put aside.

We are children of God.

 

[atwhatcost]

Chosen for what?

The Messiah came through their line. So did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Aaron, Miriam, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Ruth, David, Solomon, Gideon, etc. They seem pretty well chosen to me.

 

[Danel]

The reason why this language is miss-leading is messianic jews, who feel you should be a jew and then a christian.
The reason the apostles had such a hard time is to be a jew is to submit to the law and the national identity of Israel, which is what Paul preached against, was just going back to legalism.

In my mind it is best to say the body of Christ, the church is the fulfillment of Israel.

I know this isn't orthodox, but the fact is, Paul never preached against the law. He preached against attempting to achieve salvation through the law. That's what mainstream christianity doesn't understand. I you read the last chapter of 2 Peter, you'll see that what I mean.

 

[atwhatcost]

yes the holy spirit rsides in all who accept him but what I mean is the Jews and their ways of faith in general, like do they like Christians base their faith on a personal intimate relationship with God?

"Jews" have become an ethnic group now, not a belief in God. I live in Philly, where, if you're working for a small business and it's not retail, it's likely you'll work for someone who is Jewish. I have -- often. Out of my 11 bosses who were Jewish, to a man, everyone of them was also either and atheist or agnostic. (To the point that one of my bosses was furious with his son for marrying a Catholic. For some reason, he blew up when I asked him the obvious question, "If you don't believe there is a God, why get upset that he's marrying a Catholic?" Only time I ever saw him blow up, and he blew up because there was no logical reason other than he was still into protecting his ethnicity. For what? We're Americans. We blew away ethnicity when we crossed an ocean to get here.)

Truly, truly that line was broken at the death of Christ. He still saves some Jews, just like he saves some Gentiles, but God is not a respecter of persons. It's not the background, it's who is God and what does that mean in your life? God was and still is he who saves.

 

[atwhatcost]

Jesus was an Israelite.Today a ''Jew'' can mean anyone and I doubt the word was even around in Jesus time. Most of modern Israel's population are not native but in fact European,Turkish,Russian and Kazarian decent who's ancestors converted to Judaism and colonized modern Israel in 1948 .The university of Tel aviv did a study on this and found very little of the abrahamic gene in Israel but rather it was found among the people of Palestine.

Actually, not really. The Jews were originally from Judah, not all of the Promise Land. The people of the Promise Land ended up splitting into two. The Jews are from the Judah side of that split. They lived in Judea, thus were called "Jews." (Probably originally something closer to Jues, but, hey, we're speaking in a different language than from that time, so it doesn't really matter.) And, yes, the term "Jew" was used during the Roman occupation/life of Christ or he couldn't have been called "The King of the Jews."

Since what was supposed to happen from the chosen people did happen -- the Messiah came through them -- the what-happened-afterward doesn't matter so much, because he is The Promise.

 

[atwhatcost]

Seriously? My goodness. There were thousands and thousands of Jews who believed in and became disciples of Jesus Christ.

Which part of "That includes some Jews" did you not get?

 

[atwhatcost]

Have done so. You will ever reject the simplistic statement of the Apostle.......that is your choice.

And one can not discuss the 11th Chapter without first understanding why Paul is saying what he is saying. That also is "context." Look at Chapter 10.

Romans
10


1 .) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 .) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 .) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 .) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

From here one can read "in context" the rest of Chapter 10, and 11.

And to suggest that all the millions of people who have died in "unbelief" - in their sins - from that time until this.......will be "saved" is to make null and void the blood of Christ in my opinion. For it is to justify "all paths lead to heaven" and to deny that God is a "Just God." To say that of all who have died in unbelief/their sins .......... only those of Jewish blood will be "saved" and all others condemned is to also deny that God is a "Just God."

Paul clearly states that they must not "still abide in their unbelief." Those who have died, died in unbelief. To believe that they will STILL be granted eternal life by God is to justify all paths lead to heaven. For if unbelievers can receive eternal life, then there is no reason for believers to remain in the Faith. If those who live after the flesh can receive eternal life, why should any deny self and live for Him?

Paul speaks clearly again and again.

Galatians 3:23 .) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 .) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Chapter 4:4 .) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 .) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 .) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 .) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.



Believe as you wish...........but there is much to be reconciled with the teachings of Paul under your assertion. I will accept the Words of Christ and the teachings of Paul.

I forgot why I ignored you, so I unignored you. Now I remember why I ignored you. You're an "only I understand all things perfectly" kind of person. Back to ignore.

 

[atwhatcost]

They are chosen because God chose them to produce our Messiah.

Orthodox Jewish people love God and are looking for the Messiah to come, and they do believe it is very soon actually as many Christians do. They just don't believe Jesus has already come.

No Christian should be against the Jewish people. We are the ones who were grafted in to the original branch. If it wasn't for the Jewish people we would not have a Messiah.

They love a god who hasn't produced the Messiah, who hasn't talked to them in two millennium, who took away their only means to repent, and apparently, from their perspective, lied to them?

No. Sorry. They don't love God. At best, they're going through a certain amount of effort to appease a god who deserted them two thousand four hundred years ago.

And I've been grafted into God's vine, not the Jewish religion.

 

[valiant]

No. While I agree with you time line up to this point I do not believe Gentiles became part of Israel.

that is precisely what Rom 11.12-24; Eph 2.12-22; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1 TEACH. We are incorporated into ISRAEL.

Again, Paul said in chpater 9 there is no jew or greek, free or slave, we are become the body of Christ, Not israel. Abraham was not even a part of Israel. he was a gentile. ONE of his sons is the first of the nation of Israel.

LOL try Galatians 3.28. Paul says nothing like that in Romans 9. you are dreaming. Rom 11.12-24 clearly indicates that WE ARE ISRAEL.

I am quite well aware what Abraham was. But he was not a Gentile. He was the chosen of God, and can be described as proto-Israel. He was the founder of 'the elect' as Rom 9 makes clear.

Abraham is the father of MANY nations, not just one. And all nations have been blessed because of him (through Christ)

But he was especially the father of Israel. 'In Isaac shall your seed be called.'

lol. Thats your opinion. which I must disagree with. Why would paul call the unbelieving jews beloved because of the promises and gifts given to the fathers?

It was 'the election' (see 11.7) who were beloved for the fathers' sake. He never calls the whole nation of Israel 'beloved'.

And why did he not call any Gentile (saved or not) a part of this group?

because the Gentiles were not beloved FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE.

No You do not know your history. These gentiles had to convert to Israel by following the covenant laws to be part of the blessings of Israel. It never made any of them saved, there were mixed jews in Jesus day who were never saved, and never got saved.

Israel were never as a whole 'saved'. But their proselytisation did make them Israel. Right from its beginning Israel was composed of a remnant saved, and the remainder unsaved.

I do not believe you understand the covenant theology very well. and what the differences were.

LOL I am not interested in covenant theology. I am interested in Biblical theology.

Yet, in Pauls writting of Romans 11. He stated in a future event (which had not occured in pauls day yet) something would occure, and a future deliverer will come and remove the blindness of Israel, and they will all get saved (we know this event to be the future return of Christ)

There is NOTHING in Rom 11. that says that. It speaks of the new true Israel (including converted Gentiles) being delivered by the coming of the Redeemer. You may have missed it but it occurred in 1st century AD. It is a work which will continue until the number of the saved is complete in 'Israel'.

God had not restored Isreal since they were first removed by the babylonians (yes he allowed them back in their land, but HE NEVER RESTORED THEM, they WERE SLAVES to babylon, then media persia, then greece, then rome, until 70 AD. even until this day, they have yet to be restored (thus pauls prophesy of future Israel is still not fulfilled)

well they saw themselves as restored. And eventually they became an independent nation. Don't you know the history of the Maccabees? Haven't you heard of HYRCANUS AND ARISTOBULUS? So you are wrong. They were doubly restored. Paul's prophecy about 'Israel's deliverance commenced in 1st century AD and has been going on ever since as the Olive Tree has grown and grown. It will be complete once the last Gentile and Jew has been saved.

not to mention so many OT prophets claim they will repent and be restored.

They did repent and they were restored. And this came to its culmination in the establishing of the Kingly Rule of God under the Messiah ruling from Heaven.

No I don,t nor do I believe they will get to heaven, unless they repent. And I wish you people would stop claiming I think otherwise, BECAUSE YOUR BEARING FALSE WITNESS every time you do.

I never said you did. So who is bearing false witness now?

Last I read, the ten commandments claim bearing false witness is a sin!

something you should remember

Oh so the promise of Isreal living in peace in the land of Isreal cannan) with the son of david on his throne and ruling the world from that throne, and all gentile nations praising the God of Israel and comming to worship the king is happening today?

It will never happen. Heb 11.10-14 makes that clear. The land promised to Abraham and Israel was a heavenly land. GOD SAID IT NOT ME.

As to an earthly kingdom with an earthly throne of the Messiah that is a myth.
God has a funny way of fulfilling prophesy. He might as well be a pagan God. we can spiritualise their prophesies and make them come true also.

Christ is now ruling the world from His throne, and the SOULS of His people are living and reigning with Him in Heaven whilst we live and reign with Him one earth.

The promise of eternal life was Given to Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah and all those who never heard of Isreal.

Sooooo?

The promise did not change with the formation of Isreal. it was just part of Gods plan.

That is why earthly Israel has lost its significance. It is in the true Israel of His redeemed people that God's plan will be fulfilled

And it does not change today.

Not it will never change. all His emphasis is on those who believe in Christ who are the true Israel.

I did not become a part of Isreal.

well then I am sorry for you. But if you are saved then you are engrafted into the olive tree and a member of the true Israel.

I became a child of God alongside adam and eve and noah and all the others (jew or gentile) who recieved Gods plan of salvation.

which includes all who are saved whatever they call themselves.

You thinking to much into it, and not seeing it for what it is, Thats the only explanation I can think of as to why you can not see it.

you can't see it because your beliefs prevent you from seeing what Romans 9-11 really teaches. you read it carelessly assuming that you already know what it means.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that is precisely what Rom 11.12-24; Eph 2.12-22; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1 TEACH. We are incorporated into ISRAEL.

No, it does not. sorry, not buying your arguments, I am not a Jew, not am I spiritual Isreal. I am a child of God. the barrier (the law) was removed, and made us one, as paul said in Eph 2.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [SUP]15 [/SUP]having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Nothing in their about making me or you or anyone else a jew. And James 1 was written to Jewish Christians, thus is was addressed to them. I hope you are not basing your belief on those three passages, for they are week arguments at best

LOL try Galatians 3.28. Paul says nothing like that in Romans 9. you are dreaming. Rom 11.12-24 clearly indicates that WE ARE ISRAEL.

How can we be Isreal. when we are hated for the sake of the gospel? When we are blinded in part? You make no sense.

Gal 3 is speaking of the schoolmaster. Which was taken out of the way making us one. What does that have to do with me being a spiritual Jew,, Why did you not adress Adam. Is Adam and Noah spiritual Jews or children of God?

I am quite well aware what Abraham was. But he was not a Gentile. He was the chosen of God, and can be described as proto-Israel. He was the founder of 'the elect' as Rom 9 makes clear.

Then you do not know anything about Abraham, He was also not founder of the elect. Unless you think no person alive was saved before him, Again where do you come up with your arguments?

You have your context of romans 9 in error. Try to find the historical relevence of romans 9, and you will begin to see the truth.

But he was especially the father of Israel. 'In Isaac shall your seed be called.'

Yep. In other words, non of the other of his children had any part of the inheritance promised Abraham (not speaking of salvation of course, which is your problem, your making it a salvation covenant when it NEVER WAS)

It was 'the election' (see 11.7) who were beloved for the fathers' sake. He never calls the whole nation of Israel 'beloved'.

it says they were blinded. Nice try.

Why write romans 11 if it is not concerning the nation of Isreal. Why have a remnant, if God is done with them?

Why make Isreal jealous by taking the oracles away from them, and giving it to gentiles, if God is done with them?

because the Gentiles were not beloved FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE.

It does not say that, It speaks of Isreal. Not gentiles. Now your twisting the word of God.

Israel were never as a whole 'saved'. But their proselytisation did make them Israel. Right from its beginning Israel was composed of a remnant saved, and the remainder unsaved.

I never said they were. But paul says at a time, they all will be saved,

Your argument is with Paul not me.

LOL I am not interested in covenant theology. I am interested in Biblical theology.

No actually you are not. Or you would learn the different covenants and what they mean, and not just listen to men


You can not claim to want to learn about the word of God. yet ignore all the different covenants God made with mankind and certain people, and why. Well unless your catholic. Which is where you are leaning in this area.

There is NOTHING in Rom 11. that says that. It speaks of the new true Israel (including converted Gentiles) being delivered by the coming of the Redeemer. You may have missed it but it occurred in 1st century AD. It is a work which will continue until the number of the saved is complete in 'Israel'.

1. Paul spoke of future tense.
2. Paul spoke of a nation, who is blinded in part. and our enemy concerning th egospel. coming to Christ and being saved.

Sorry, Your wrong in this issue,

well they saw themselves as restored. And eventually they became an independent nation.

So them seeing themselves as restored makes it right? they saw themselves as right and Jesus wrong also. What they think does not matter, what actually happened does.

When did they have a king? when did they live in peace? when did the gentiles see through them the true God of heaven? You have to ignore so much OT prophesy, or spiritualise it away to say what your saying

Sorry, I take Gods word literally.

Don't you know the history of the Maccabees? Haven't you heard of HYRCANUS AND ARISTOBULUS? So you are wrong. They were doubly restored. Paul's prophecy about 'Israel's deliverance commenced in 1st century AD and has been going on ever since as the Olive Tree has grown and grown. It will be complete once the last Gentile and Jew has been saved.

lol. You do not read much OT prophesy do you? You think the macabees was a restoration? that first century isreal (under roman rule) was a restoration.

wow dude,

They did repent and they were restored. And this came to its culmination in the establishing of the Kingly Rule of God under the Messiah ruling from Heaven.

Oh they did? so why are there so many blind? why are they still our enemy?

And jesus is ruling? his rod of iron must be prety week. His peace on earth is prety week. God must have no power.

if you think this is his kingdom. You have a low view of Jesus and his power.

I never said you did. So who is bearing false witness now?

taken from your words..

And do you think that the ungodly, unbelieving, bunch of rogues who call themselves Israel today (many of whom were not descended from Jacob) are somehow different?

How else would I take it?

something you should remember

I remember, well

It will never happen. Heb 11.10-14 makes that clear. The land promised to Abraham and Israel was a heavenly land. GOD SAID IT NOT ME.

No again your in error Heb 11 states that they looked forword to what was eternal. the physical things did not matter as much,

Again, you need to study the OT more.

As to an earthly kingdom with an earthly throne of the Messiah that is a myth.
God has a funny way of fulfilling prophesy. He might as well be a pagan God. we can spiritualise their prophesies and make them come true also.

Christ is now ruling the world from His throne, and the SOULS of His people are living and reigning with Him in Heaven whilst we live and reign with Him one earth.

Yep. His rod of iron is prety weak. All the gentiles coming to Isreal to worship him is, (oh wait, jerusalem is still in gentile hands)

Oh well. Your fairy tale is weak and lacking.

Sooooo?

so? wow!

That is why earthly Israel has lost its significance. It is in the true Israel of His redeemed people that God's plan will be fulfilled

dude, spiritual Isreal (those true isrealites who were saved) were still spiritual Isreal from the time God established their kingdon. David understood this, as did all the prophets. when will you?

You act as if they got saved in the OT different than we do today, You ignore the fact that the way to heaven never changed, The law did not change the way to heaven.

Not it will never change. all His emphasis is on those who believe in Christ who are the true Israel.

well then I am sorry for you. But if you are saved then you are engrafted into the olive tree and a member of the true Israel.

No. I am a child of God. not a child of Israel.

if you want to consider yourself one, and ignore Gods promises to nationa isreal. thats up to you.

which includes all who are saved whatever they call themselves.

Yep. but they did not call themselves jews. or isreal. whatever you want to think

you can't see it because your beliefs prevent you from seeing what Romans 9-11 really teaches. you read it carelessly assuming that you already know what it means.

your the one following an antisemetic doctrine drug up by the roman catholic church (concerning spiritual Israel) after they left the literal interpretation of the word. Not me my friend.

I know what it means, Because I actually stopped listening to men (concerning calvinsview), and started studying what it actually says