Christians vs Jews?
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Oh, you have some sort of inside scoop that GOD killed JESUS? Wow..the neat thing about what you just said is that one day you will have the privilege of facing JESUS, Himself, along with everyone else who's knees are bowed and tongues confessing that HE is LORD. At that time, you can boldly proclaim to JESUS CHRIST that HIs Father killed Him, just like you do here on earth. At the end of the day, the entire universe will know His response to you.... "Depart from ME, for I never knew you!"
E
my sure and certain hope is that God will save His people, whoever they are.
He promised He would.
i hope this not only for Jews, but for those redeemed from every tribe, tongue and nation.
He promised He would.
i hope this not only for Jews, but for those redeemed from every tribe, tongue and nation.
He told us to do the same.
Replacement theology. This idea is new to me, or way of describing it.
There is a simple spiritual issue here. The apostles regarded the Jewish faith as over, once the curtain in the temple was torn in two. This is God saying the whole temple system is no more, the shadow has passed and the new has arrived.
There was a period of 40 years, two generations where the nation of Israel could have repented and followed Jesus.
After this time the temple was destroyed and Judaism changed.
For the promises of Jesus to be fulfilled in the Apostles
Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28
For the promises given by God to be eternal, they must be fulfilled in His people. The prostitute in Jericho who housed the spies was saved is a classic example. Israel were the believing people, born into a covenant which is the fore shadow of the covenant of faith in Jesus, into which we are born spiritually through the Holy Spirit. This was the starting of the Kingdom of God on earth.
When Jesus said,
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Matt 16:28
There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Matt 17:2-3
The church at pentecost was the coming of His kingdom on earth.
Everything before this was a fore-shadow. Israel were the flesh trying to fulfill Gods law and failing except those who believed by faith in the love and nature of who God was as King David did.
There is a simple spiritual issue here. The apostles regarded the Jewish faith as over, once the curtain in the temple was torn in two. This is God saying the whole temple system is no more, the shadow has passed and the new has arrived.
There was a period of 40 years, two generations where the nation of Israel could have repented and followed Jesus.
After this time the temple was destroyed and Judaism changed.
For the promises of Jesus to be fulfilled in the Apostles
Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28
For the promises given by God to be eternal, they must be fulfilled in His people. The prostitute in Jericho who housed the spies was saved is a classic example. Israel were the believing people, born into a covenant which is the fore shadow of the covenant of faith in Jesus, into which we are born spiritually through the Holy Spirit. This was the starting of the Kingdom of God on earth.
When Jesus said,
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Matt 16:28
There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Matt 17:2-3
The church at pentecost was the coming of His kingdom on earth.
Everything before this was a fore-shadow. Israel were the flesh trying to fulfill Gods law and failing except those who believed by faith in the love and nature of who God was as King David did.
E
It is just a term given to a group of people who profess and teach that God is done with Isreal. and ALL of the oT prophesies concerning Israel has been, or will be fulfilled with the church.
The only way this could be true, is to spiritualize, or make an allegory of many prophesies concerning Israel and her restoration. And make them somehow be fulfilled with the church. or when we all get to heaven. Which I believe is a dangerous thing, and makes a mockery of God and his promises, and his prophetic purpose. to prove he is the one true God.
Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
When we make an allegory or spiritualize prophesy we make Gods word spoken to the nation of Isreal in deuteronomy a lie. for a prophet spoke, and the things spoken did not literally come to pass.
B
The main reason for the controversial arguments the Jews had is that messiah did not have to die. Their pride of being the circumcised of God and the only holy people was Paul's argument in the new testament. Cursed is he that hangs from a tree is one of the stumbling blocks they had. Not realizing messiah had to die. That's why the remark was made to Jesus "save your self" Jesus attempt to show them in scripture what it was they were seeing is when he quoted psalms 22 . The Jews know of the 2nd comming of Christ as his only appearing which is why they will accept the Antichrist in till the abomination of desolation in revelation. The flavor of the gospel is colored throughout with this notion that Jesus 'messiah" should take Rome by force and subdue the rest of the world, this is what Jesus does in the second comming.
It is just a term given to a group of people who profess and teach that God is done with Isreal. and ALL of the oT prophesies concerning Israel has been, or will be fulfilled with the church.
Never heard anyone say God is through with Israel.......hmm....
The only way this could be true, is to spiritualize, or make an allegory of many prophesies concerning Israel and her restoration. And make them somehow be fulfilled with the church. or when we all get to heaven. Which I believe is a dangerous thing, and makes a mockery of God and his promises, and his prophetic purpose. to prove he is the one true God.
Isaiah 10:16 .) Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 .) And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 .) And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.
19 .) And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
20 .) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 .) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 .) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Romans 9:24 .) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 .) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 .) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 .) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Matthew 5:20 .) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 14:6 .) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Romans 10:1 .) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 11:23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
And many, many more.........yeah.......Jesus, Isaiah, Paul and others were guilty of "spiritualizing and making allegories."
Never heard anyone say God is through with Israel.......hmm....
The only way this could be true, is to spiritualize, or make an allegory of many prophesies concerning Israel and her restoration. And make them somehow be fulfilled with the church. or when we all get to heaven. Which I believe is a dangerous thing, and makes a mockery of God and his promises, and his prophetic purpose. to prove he is the one true God.
Isaiah 10:16 .) Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 .) And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 .) And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.
19 .) And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
20 .) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 .) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 .) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Romans 9:24 .) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 .) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 .) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 .) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Matthew 5:20 .) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 14:6 .) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Romans 10:1 .) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 11:23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
And many, many more.........yeah.......Jesus, Isaiah, Paul and others were guilty of "spiritualizing and making allegories."
E
You must not get around much.
Pick one prophesy and this makes you right? There are many OT prophesies fulfilled in the first advent, including the prophesy that a people who were not called Gods people would be loved by God and brought into a relationship with him.
lets see how you try to spiritualize Ez 37 and include the church in this prophesy, I have many many more if you are actually willing to discuss scripture.
I am sorry your logic is flawed. The Jews alive today are not Israel, in the real sense of the word. They do not know which tribe they represent any more, nor can they say they fulfill nation-hood etc. Where are the 12 tribes? Only Judah & Benjemin stayed faithful, while the others wondered away, worshiped idols etc. What was Israel failed, it never even fully conquered palestine and were corrupted by the local peoples who God had judged.
The bible is two stories, the intention of the promise, and the failure of Israel to walk in it. This is why Judaism has stayed small, because it now is not the true promise of the temple with sacrifices etc but a spiritualised version of this.
Now to take a position the prophets were talking about the people of God in terms of Israel as a nation and not the people of God, those who walk in His ways, is a denial of their ministry. Israel was meant to be the beacon of light for those who follow God as their King, but even they replaced God with Saul, David etc. so it is failure down the line.
Now the Jews are a religious group like any other. One could argue the idea of re-establishing Israel was insane, and has caused the massive rise of fanatic Islam because of all the injustice this has brought about. The people who pushed this agenda are Messianic Christians, who feel Israel still has a reality, even though this is manufactured by politicians.
Israel is persecuting and driving out many good christian families and groups, and carrying on like the oppressors did against them. They also believe they have a right to the land, when they have often only a tenuous inheritence through a grandmother, which is not any real justification.
Prophecies have scattering them from THEIR land to the four corners of the earth.
Prophecies of their being persecuted wherever they go.
Prophecies of their regathering back to THEIR Land where they would no longer be removed.
Prophecies of theit final chastisement (Jacob's Touble) for 7 years.
Like any other? We're not talking logic, we're talking God's Word, something you seem need of brushing up on.
Prophecies of their being persecuted wherever they go.
Prophecies of their regathering back to THEIR Land where they would no longer be removed.
Prophecies of theit final chastisement (Jacob's Touble) for 7 years.
Like any other? We're not talking logic, we're talking God's Word, something you seem need of brushing up on.
E
I am sorry but your argument is flawed.
1. It does not matter if a child of Isreal knows what tribe he is from, God does.
2. Israel has not been restored yet, there has been no repentance.
Thus you argument is futile and useless.
The bible is many stories, we have Gods dealing with adam, with noah, with abraham, with moses. and with other peoples.
why do you only want to keep it to two? Sounds like your trying to be sneaky
Yep. so God took it from them and gave it to the gentiles. And look what the gentiles did, made the same mistakes the jews made. Guess what, Prophets saw this also. and also saw that Israel would be restored to the beacon to the world. only this time, they would get it right,
Ez 37: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
sorry, but no way you can fit the churhc into this prophesy, or claim it has already happened.
one could. but since israel is not restored according to the prophesies, then that would be a lame argument. Israel has been hated by everyone since she was first formed as a nation. nothing has changed, After ad 70, she was persecuted by the church of rome, a world leader tried to kill them all, and now islam wants them erradicated.
They can try, but history proves, God promised to keep them alive and he will keep his promise. (the church can not even claim to be persecuted as often and horribly as she has)
lol. Again your argument is flawed. it assumes they have been restored. they have not. They do no different than any other nation or religion does. They believe they have a right, because they do, but they will never get it until they repent. or have you not read lev 26?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
so tell me, Has israel repented yet?
did not think so. So we see why they are still not restored. why God has not yet remembered his covenant and the land. But scripture says HE WILL WHEN THEY DO, AND THEY WILL
1. It does not matter if a child of Isreal knows what tribe he is from, God does.
2. Israel has not been restored yet, there has been no repentance.
Thus you argument is futile and useless.
The bible is many stories, we have Gods dealing with adam, with noah, with abraham, with moses. and with other peoples.
why do you only want to keep it to two? Sounds like your trying to be sneaky
Yep. so God took it from them and gave it to the gentiles. And look what the gentiles did, made the same mistakes the jews made. Guess what, Prophets saw this also. and also saw that Israel would be restored to the beacon to the world. only this time, they would get it right,
Ez 37: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
sorry, but no way you can fit the churhc into this prophesy, or claim it has already happened.
one could. but since israel is not restored according to the prophesies, then that would be a lame argument. Israel has been hated by everyone since she was first formed as a nation. nothing has changed, After ad 70, she was persecuted by the church of rome, a world leader tried to kill them all, and now islam wants them erradicated.
They can try, but history proves, God promised to keep them alive and he will keep his promise. (the church can not even claim to be persecuted as often and horribly as she has)
lol. Again your argument is flawed. it assumes they have been restored. they have not. They do no different than any other nation or religion does. They believe they have a right, because they do, but they will never get it until they repent. or have you not read lev 26?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
so tell me, Has israel repented yet?
did not think so. So we see why they are still not restored. why God has not yet remembered his covenant and the land. But scripture says HE WILL WHEN THEY DO, AND THEY WILL