Christians vs Jews?

[eternally-gratefull]

Prophecies have scattering them from THEIR land to the four corners of the earth.
Prophecies of their being persecuted wherever they go.
Prophecies of their regathering back to THEIR Land where they would no longer be removed.
Prophecies of theit final chastisement (Jacob's Touble) for 7 years.
Like any other? We're not talking logic, we're talking God's Word, something you seem need of brushing up on.

it all comes from the same mold. We have to take prophesy literally when it lines up with our belief, if it does not. we make it an allegory,

why is it that ALL prophesies concerning the suffering servant and fist advent of Christ came literally true, even to the day of his entrance to jerusalem. And all the rest which we can not literally have fulfilled in that first century, we have to allegorize it, and not hold it up to the same standard of literal interpretation?

 

[crossnote]

it all comes from the same mold. We have to take prophesy literally when it lines up with our belief, if it does not. we make it an allegory,

why is it that ALL prophesies concerning the suffering servant and fist advent of Christ came literally true, even to the day of his entrance to jerusalem. And all the rest which we can not literally have fulfilled in that first century, we have to allegorize it, and not hold it up to the same standard of literal interpretation?

Maybe the whole thing was figurative and Jesus and His death was only an allegory to teach us a deeper meaning...NOT NOT NOT

 

[PeterJens]

The only commandments that he ever taught against were the manmade traditions of the pharisees that were being added to God's law. As for the law itself, Christ said that it wouldn't change until heavens and earth pass away, and that we should observe all of it.

There is an obvious flaw to this argument. The apostles taught you did not have to be a jew to be a christian.
So that is not following the law. The fullfillment of the law, ie the showing of mans sinfulness and need of God was fulfilled with Jesus dying on the cross.

With the coming of the Kingdom on earth, at pentecost, putting love as the core inspiration of the people born by faith, the law was annuled and the law of Jesus, love from the heart began. Now this law was the fulfillment of the intention of the law of Moses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe the whole thing was figurative and Jesus and His death was only an allegory to teach us a deeper meaning...NOT NOT NOT

well unless your a legalism, then the whole cross which fulfilled the OT allegory of the lamb led to a slaughrter to take away the sin of the world, was an allegory,

funny thing is, most legalist do not believe in Amillennial teaching.

thats an oxymoron for ya!

 

[PeterJens]

Ez 37:7

As far as I understand the prophecy in Ezekiel was this not fulfilled by the return under Nehmiah and Ezra, the restoration of the temple and the re-institution of sacrifices which Jesus saw when he walked the earth.

The problem with prophecy is how you interpret its fulfillment, whether it is still outstanding or already has been met. The exile certainly stopped the baal worship etc.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As far as I understand the prophecy in Ezekiel was this not fulfilled by the return under Nehmiah and Ezra, the restoration of the temple and the re-institution of sacrifices which Jesus saw when he walked the earth.

How could it, when did any of this take place?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

The problem with prophecy is how you interpret its fulfillment, whether it is still outstanding or already has been met. The exile certainly stopped the baal worship etc.

it can only be interpreted to come completely true, (a partial fulfillment, or apparent fulfillment does not make it fulfilled) or it is a false interpretation. The problem is when we interpret the prophesy to fit our belief system, and not interpret it literally for what it says.

 

[PeterJens]

How could it, when did any of this take place?

David My servant shall be king over them

Now unless David is resurrected and comes back to rule this is alogorical.
My servant will be King forever is fulfilled in Jesus only.

Putting the Lords sanctuary in the midst of them, only makes sense in the presence rather than the temple.

Now this prophecy is all over the place. Jesus referred to himself as the temple, so again this could be talking about Jesus being put at the centre of Israel. The thing is one prophecy, and its language does not make the whole idea of Israel caring on in the old covenant as a done deal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now unless David is resurrected and comes back to rule this is alogorical.
My servant will be King forever is fulfilled in Jesus only.

Of course, and it is not taken ellegorically. Jesus would be called the son of david, and the throne would be called davids throne (ie the davidic covenant) remember historical language,

Levi held the priesthood. even in Christ's day, even though levi had been dead for centuries.

Putting the Lords sanctuary in the midst of them, only makes sense in the presence rather than the temple.

I agree, who stated it would be a temple. Although I am sure some sort of "house of God" will be built for Jesus to rule as high priest and king in.

Now this prophecy is all over the place. Jesus referred to himself as the temple, so again this could be talking about Jesus being put at the centre of Israel. The thing is one prophecy, and its language does not make the whole idea of Israel caring on in the old covenant as a done deal.

Not sure what you mean, what does carrying on in the old covenant mean? This will not occur until they repent. and since Jesus fulfilled the Old covenant, there is no need to carry on in it. so that will not even be an issue.

here is an issue. Did Israel continue in sin after Nehemiah? yes
where they separated again? Yes, in AD 70
did they live in peace after the supposed restoration of nehimiah? no, they were still slaves,

we need to interpret prophesy like God demanded it to me interpreted.

Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

If a prophet says A,B, C And D will all happen.

we do not say it is fulfilled if A appears to have been fulfilled. B can be fulfilled if we make an alegory of it, and c and d does not matter.

it either happens completely as told. or it is not fulfilled. (God can use allegory to represent literal events, but the literal events must occure as said, a good example is the beasts of daniel representing gentile empires.)

 

[PeterJens]

This will not occur until they repent.

The core of your idea is a separate line of salvation or a special dispensation for Israel.
Other than wanting this to meet the words of a prophecy and your interpretation, where else is this idea founded?

Ofcourse the prophets used language of Israel as the people of God, and them being brought back.

Let me bring some warnings. Jesus referred to John the Baptist as Elijah, if you are prepared to accept this.
He spoke of keeping the law, until everything is fulfilled, which meant the cross of Christ.
He talked of some seeing the Kingdom coming in power, yet this meant the transfiguration.

Jesus talked of hating your family, yet it was in contrast to loving God.

Revelation has massive pictures of different images which are alogorical. The core image is of judgement and fulfillment.
You want a literal interpretation of something that never came into being in the first place.

The temple is no more, nor the sacrifices. Everyone can come to Jesus, so the shadow has now be fulfilled by the reality.
You want the shadow to be significant, which appears to be the opposite of the power of Jesus who overshadows everything.

I therefore have no reason to accept the prophecy at face value, and every reason to see it as the fulfillment in Jesus and establishing His kingdom.

To say this idea causes persecution of Jews is just wrong. Nothing should encourage persecution of any group, only if there is individual injustice and sin involved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The core of your idea is a separate line of salvation or a special dispensation for Israel.
Other than wanting this to meet the words of a prophecy and your interpretation, where else is this idea founded?

I think ezekial 37 shows it quite well. as well as lev 26 and romans 11 (where paul says all Israel will be saved, ie all isreal will repent)

who said anything about a special dispensation for Israel?

Ofcourse the prophets used language of Israel as the people of God, and them being brought back.

Let me bring some warnings. Jesus referred to John the Baptist as Elijah, if you are prepared to accept this.
He spoke of keeping the law, until everything is fulfilled, which meant the cross of Christ.
He talked of some seeing the Kingdom coming in power, yet this meant the transfiguration.

Jesus talked of hating your family, yet it was in contrast to loving God.

Revelation has massive pictures of different images which are alogorical. The core image is of judgement and fulfillment.
You want a literal interpretation of something that never came into being in the first place.

The temple is no more, nor the sacrifices. Everyone can come to Jesus, so the shadow has now be fulfilled by the reality.
You want the shadow to be significant, which appears to be the opposite of the power of Jesus who overshadows everything.

I therefore have no reason to accept the prophecy at face value, and every reason to see it as the fulfillment in Jesus and establishing His kingdom.

To say this idea causes persecution of Jews is just wrong. Nothing should encourage persecution of any group, only if there is individual injustice and sin involved.

again, your logic is flawed.

If the prophet said ABC and D will occure, the ONLY INTERPRETATION which can be correctly used is that ABC and D literally come true.

Otherwise, Gods warning in deut 18: 22 is useless.

if the OT prophets claim Israel will repent, and thus be restored according to the promise of God to their fathers, an in accordance with lev 26 and the guidlines required for restoration, Why should we ignore what they say, or worse yet, make them mean something different?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To say this idea causes persecution of Jews is just wrong. Nothing should encourage persecution of any group, only if there is individual injustice and sin involved.

I do not agree it really causes persecution of Jews. on the contrary, I think HATRED of Isreal by the roman church is what caused this idea.

why else would something which is supposed to bless the WHOLE world. and be a great thing for all nations be so faught against, just because it has to do with Israel

 

[Mac4Yuma]

I have heard some Christians bash against the jews saying they are not saved and such, I don't know a lot about the Jews but umm Jesus was a Jew so....

LOL YES that fact it seems most do not want to think about such. Christians are Jews in mind/heart because Jesus said He is the example to follow BUT most that say they are Christian are so by what they say only... Keep in mind the Bible talks about the few and the many and to be in one of the classes one must be a bible reader.

Nice Post

Mac.

BTW if a Christian is bashing anyone that person is not a Christian and if they were they no longer are till the repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL YES that fact it seems most do not want to think about such. Christians are Jews in mind/heart because Jesus said He is the example to follow BUT most that say they are Christian are so by what they say only... Keep in mind the Bible talks about the few and the many and to be in one of the classes one must be a bible reader.

Nice Post

Mac.

BTW if a Christian is bashing anyone that person is not a Christian and if they were they no longer are till the repent.

so God kicks you out of his family and into the street until you say your sorry.

what kind of father does that to his children?

 

[crossnote]

well unless your a legalism, then the whole cross which fulfilled the OT allegory of the lamb led to a slaughrter to take away the sin of the world, was an allegory,

funny thing is, most legalist do not believe in Amillennial teaching.

thats an oxymoron for ya!

poor hermeneutics can spawn all kinds of creepy crawlies

 

[Mac4Yuma]

so God kicks you out of his family and into the street until you say your sorry.

what kind of father does that to his children?

A good Father does that have you not seen what kids do on the new....

Mac.

 

[Pumicestone]

I can't wait. This should be good.



And three "Likes" ..... for THAT ?!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A good Father does that have you not seen what kids do on the new....

Mac.

No, A good father loves and chastens his child. he does not kick him out on the streets. I pray you have no kids if you would consider this a good father.

 

[royalscot]

what about parables. if they are the secret of the kingdom of heaven.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (ware dose it say block them , or we all have the same level of understanding. etc)
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.
23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.'27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

there s a hook-ey...e back for some.

 

[jaybird88]

so God kicks you out of his family and into the street until you say your sorry.

what kind of father does that to his children?

a Father that loves His children and wants to teach them a lesson.

 

[valiant]

How could it, when did any of this take place?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

This was literally fulfilled in the return from Exile once Jesus had come and was king over the true Israel who believed on Him, the election of grace of Rom 9-11.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

This will be fulfilled in the new Heavens and the new earth

,[SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

the covenant of peace was made in the upper room. And God's sanctuary was established in His people. There will be no literal sanctuary in the eternal kingdom.

it can only be interpreted to come completely true, (a partial fulfillment, or apparent fulfillment does not make it fulfilled) or it is a false interpretation. The problem is when we interpret the prophesy to fit our belief system, and not interpret it literally for what it says.

the problem is when we are blind to New Testament fulfilment.