OSAS, the final answer
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Jn 6:28 "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
They asked Jesus what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God.
Now why is it Jesus did NOT answer their question with "do not works" as some on this forum would have? Because Jesus knows belief is a work that man must do to be saved....."WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life" >>>no work = no everlasting life.
The only twisting done to this passage would be by those trying to take the work out of it.
E
dude, please tell me you are not that gullible.
Jesus did it all the time, the mere fact he said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood is proof of that.
They said what works must we do.
HE SAID IT IS THE WORK OF GOD.
Nothing more nothing less.
GET OVER IT! YOUR ARGUMENT IS DESTROYED IN THE PASSAGE! THERE IS NO MORE YOU CAN DO! You can;t pass go or collect 200 dollars. it is DONE, FINISHED (hey wait, that is what Jesus said,)
when are you going to stop believing men, and start to believe Jesus?
Yes, man must make the choice while alive...no choice can be made when dead!
But, as I have shown from Revelation, before the judgment all dead will be resurrected. Thus, since they will be alive, it follows they will have a choice to make. Consider again the verse from Isaiah:
[Isa 26:10 NKJV] Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
As you say, God will not predetermine. Therefore, how can He tell if a wicked person will deal unjustly in the land of uprightness? Would he not need to first put them into the land of uprightness to determine whether they will behold his majesty?
But, as I have shown from Revelation, before the judgment all dead will be resurrected. Thus, since they will be alive, it follows they will have a choice to make. Consider again the verse from Isaiah:
[Isa 26:10 NKJV] Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
As you say, God will not predetermine. Therefore, how can He tell if a wicked person will deal unjustly in the land of uprightness? Would he not need to first put them into the land of uprightness to determine whether they will behold his majesty?
well I think the twisting, indeed the godless cheating, is by someone who puts the question and then gives a totally false answer. Jesus answer was 'this is the work of God that you believe on Him Whom He has sent. ' In other words it was a play on ideas. He is saying, 'You do not need to think of works at this time think of the more important need to believe in Me. Works can follow.'
But you take another verse right out of context, words spoken to those who had already believed, and PRETEND IT IS THE ANSWER OF JESUS. I consider that despicable. Certainly enough on your basis to send you to Hell.
But you take another verse right out of context, words spoken to those who had already believed, and PRETEND IT IS THE ANSWER OF JESUS. I consider that despicable. Certainly enough on your basis to send you to Hell.
1 Jn 3:10 "...whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...." GOTCHA LOL
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G
Angela, I would like your opinion on something please?As to freewill, I think He sets life or death before us and we can freely choose between the two.
New American Standard Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Why is chose in the middle voice and not in the active voice?
And in Acts 16:31, Why is believe in the active voice and not in the passive voice if we can't choose to be saved by Christ?
And for the record, I do not believe my faith saved me, The object(Christ) of my faith saved me.
New American Standard Bible
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Why is chose in the middle voice and not in the active voice?
And in Acts 16:31, Why is believe in the active voice and not in the passive voice if we can't choose to be saved by Christ?
And for the record, I do not believe my faith saved me, The object(Christ) of my faith saved me.
V
We know that all things work together for good to them who love the Lord, to them who are called according to His purpose. It was legalism and doing good works that finally brought me to the end of myself. Trying to work out my own salvation with an outward show of works and trying to renew my own mind by trying to understand the Truth with my own understanding was what leveled me and brought me on my face at the Cross of Christ. I was a baby Christian for many years because I followed the legalistic (self-righteous) flock which believed "obedience and works" was what God demanded of me.
Hallelujah! I failed miserably at it! Hallelujah! Jesus showed me a better way! Glory to God, Jesus said, "Only believe!" and "Come to me you who are weary and burdened and I'll give you rest!" and "Don't be worried about anything!" and "Peace... be still!" and "It is finished." and "Rest in me." and "Martha, Martha, you're worried about a lot of things. Mary has chosen the better thing." (All Mary was doing was sitting at Jesus' feet listening to Him speak.)
So.... if someone believes their works are beneficial, bless God! Let God do His working the Truth out in them. They will eventually get exhausted carrying around their own cross. Even Jesus couldn't carry His Cross... who do we think we are that we can carry ours? But God is faithful and can show them the way of peace and rest in Jesus Christ. God's will be done!
Hallelujah! I failed miserably at it! Hallelujah! Jesus showed me a better way! Glory to God, Jesus said, "Only believe!" and "Come to me you who are weary and burdened and I'll give you rest!" and "Don't be worried about anything!" and "Peace... be still!" and "It is finished." and "Rest in me." and "Martha, Martha, you're worried about a lot of things. Mary has chosen the better thing." (All Mary was doing was sitting at Jesus' feet listening to Him speak.)
So.... if someone believes their works are beneficial, bless God! Let God do His working the Truth out in them. They will eventually get exhausted carrying around their own cross. Even Jesus couldn't carry His Cross... who do we think we are that we can carry ours? But God is faithful and can show them the way of peace and rest in Jesus Christ. God's will be done!
because eklegomai is unknown in the NT in the active? In other words it was normal to use the middle voice. It indicates the certainty of the choice.
Because it is assuring the Philippian gaoler that being saved is a consequence of believing in Jesus Christ. He had seen the EVIDENCE and that had convinced the gaoler he must be saved. What had he to DO? NOTHING said Paul. Just believe in Jesus Christ whom I have been telling you about. And did the gaoler struggle to believe. NO He believed because of what God had wrought in front of him and in him. He responded to God's evidence without effort.
well that at least is in your favour
Angela, God bless you and I'm excited to live with you in the new heaven and earth! I appreciate your heart for God, in knowing that God would save every single child of His that he could no matter what they did =) However, there is still a choice to be made:
[Deu 30:15 NKJV] "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
[Deu 30:19 NKJV] "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
However, God is so good and loving that he will give every single person a chance to choose life in the land of uprightness. Right now, far too much deception exists and many of God's children choose death because they do not understand the truth,
[Hos 4:6 NKJV] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
However, does being deceived make them wicked? Isaiah defines a wicked person:
[Isa 26:10 NKJV] Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
A wicked person is a person who will deal unjustly even in the land of uprightness! All will behold the glory of God, and Jesus His salvation - and from what Isaiah says it is clear that some will still refuse Him. But most, I think, won't =) But He certainly will not resurrect all of the dead just to tell them, 'too bad, you're too late!' and then cast them into the lake of fire.
[Deu 30:15 NKJV] "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
[Deu 30:19 NKJV] "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
However, God is so good and loving that he will give every single person a chance to choose life in the land of uprightness. Right now, far too much deception exists and many of God's children choose death because they do not understand the truth,
[Hos 4:6 NKJV] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
However, does being deceived make them wicked? Isaiah defines a wicked person:
[Isa 26:10 NKJV] Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
A wicked person is a person who will deal unjustly even in the land of uprightness! All will behold the glory of God, and Jesus His salvation - and from what Isaiah says it is clear that some will still refuse Him. But most, I think, won't =) But He certainly will not resurrect all of the dead just to tell them, 'too bad, you're too late!' and then cast them into the lake of fire.
You want to skip salvation by grace and go right to sanctification.
The caterpillar cannot become a butterfly save it go through the transformation and rebirth God intends for it to do.
Dead in trespasses and sin then made alive in Christ. Sanctified until finally glorified together with the Lord. God's salvation is a continuous action. Saved from past sin. present sin and future sin all in a continuous action by God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The caterpillar cannot become a butterfly save it go through the transformation and rebirth God intends for it to do.
Dead in trespasses and sin then made alive in Christ. Sanctified until finally glorified together with the Lord. God's salvation is a continuous action. Saved from past sin. present sin and future sin all in a continuous action by God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Responsible for our own salvation? Show me the verse!
Accountable for our own salvation? Show me the verse!
Here are what 3 Biblical writers have to say about Jesus choosing us - John, Paul and Peter!
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”" John 6:63-65
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you." 1 Peter 1:1-2
Accountable for our own salvation? Show me the verse!
Here are what 3 Biblical writers have to say about Jesus choosing us - John, Paul and Peter!
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”" John 6:63-65
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you." 1 Peter 1:1-2
We are saved by grace (unmerited favor), through faith.
Faith is the substance (works) of what we believe.
King Saul was anointed by God and Judas was chosen by Christ. Although salvation comes by the unearned favor of God, anyone at anytime can lose faith, give up, turn against God, and not finish the race.
God does not and will never forsake a believer, but there's no guarantee or assurance that we will do likewise. We can have confidence that he will always be with us, but we are required by faith to always allow and keep him in our hearts. If we refuse to do that, the osas doctrine goes out the window... jmo
Nice quote in the bolded print above, but very poor exegetics. If you studied Deuteronomy, you would know that this passage was to Israel as a nation. This was the Old Covenant, which was conditional to the obedience of the Israelites.
You cannot pull it out of context and make it mean that New Covenant believers have a choice.
In fact, all of the verses you have chosen are out of context and from the Old Covenant.
My suggestion is that you need to go back and read all of those books, to see what God was talking about. He was talking about his people, which at that time were the children of Israel, and you cannot apply that to individual. Israel as a PEOPLE were disobedient to the commands of God.
My next suggestion is that you read the New Testament to see how God saves people in the New Testament, we do not save ourselves by our choices, decisions or works. God saves us by his grace as he has called us and justified, sanctified and will glorify us.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
You cannot pull it out of context and make it mean that New Covenant believers have a choice.
In fact, all of the verses you have chosen are out of context and from the Old Covenant.
My suggestion is that you need to go back and read all of those books, to see what God was talking about. He was talking about his people, which at that time were the children of Israel, and you cannot apply that to individual. Israel as a PEOPLE were disobedient to the commands of God.
My next suggestion is that you read the New Testament to see how God saves people in the New Testament, we do not save ourselves by our choices, decisions or works. God saves us by his grace as he has called us and justified, sanctified and will glorify us.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
K
Word of God through Moses
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Word of God through Apostle Paul
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
No free will is a false teaching that the bible completely refutes, as both these scriptures from Moses and Paul show.
As they both show we have the free will to choose eternal life or eternal death, and that is done by rather you put your faith and trust in the Lord to obey His teachings or not !!!
Your theological bias prevents you from understanding the plain language of Jesus calling belief a work.
Jesus plainly, clearly unambiguously said to LABOUR for the meat that endures unto everlasting the life. Jesus settled the issue long ago that works are necessary if one desires everlasting life but those with theological bias want to argue what Jesus said, rewrite it, find a way to get rid of it.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus: This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Faith only preacher: do no work lest you try and earn salvation but believe only.
Very revealing, eye opening in how those people's question of Jn 6:28 was answered by Christ Who gave them a work to do and the answer of a false faith only preacher would give.
Jesus plainly, clearly unambiguously said to LABOUR for the meat that endures unto everlasting the life. Jesus settled the issue long ago that works are necessary if one desires everlasting life but those with theological bias want to argue what Jesus said, rewrite it, find a way to get rid of it.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus: This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Faith only preacher: do no work lest you try and earn salvation but believe only.
Very revealing, eye opening in how those people's question of Jn 6:28 was answered by Christ Who gave them a work to do and the answer of a false faith only preacher would give.
K
Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
E
there is no theological bias by yours my friend.
Jesus did not call belief a work of our own. that is your twisty version.
Jesus called our belief A WORK OF GOD.
to say anything else is to call Jesus a liar.
why do you think I keep saying game is over, if your going to use this passage as your support. your done.
Jesus did not call belief a work of our own. that is your twisty version.
Jesus called our belief A WORK OF GOD.
to say anything else is to call Jesus a liar.
why do you think I keep saying game is over, if your going to use this passage as your support. your done.
G
because eklegomai is unknown in the NT in the active? In other words it was normal to use the middle voice. It indicates the certainty of the choice.
Because it is assuring the Philippian gaoler that being saved is a consequence of believing in Jesus Christ. He had seen the EVIDENCE and that had convinced the gaoler he must be saved. What had he to DO? NOTHING said Paul. Just believe in Jesus Christ whom I have been telling you about. And did the gaoler struggle to believe. NO He believed because of what God had wrought in front of him and in him. He responded to God's evidence without effort.
well that at least is in your favour
Because it is assuring the Philippian gaoler that being saved is a consequence of believing in Jesus Christ. He had seen the EVIDENCE and that had convinced the gaoler he must be saved. What had he to DO? NOTHING said Paul. Just believe in Jesus Christ whom I have been telling you about. And did the gaoler struggle to believe. NO He believed because of what God had wrought in front of him and in him. He responded to God's evidence without effort.
well that at least is in your favour