I'm accused a lot for bashing the 'church'...but..
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M
Im not saying their are not real men of God...but the mindset that we are supposed to give and not judge the folks we are giving to and the work being done is completely unbiblical....The idea that a minister cannot work and we are supposed to support a lifestyle that is greater than those he is supposed to serve is wrong minded. Its is more blessed to give than receive...a real man of God lives that ..not just preach that to those they want to support them.
M
No Pauls point was he didn't speak with mans wisdom to entertain men...He spoke the mysteries of God and the foolishness of the Cross with demonstrations of the Spirit and power. Men don't reach people...a cult leader can be very persuasive ...that's how they become cult leaders. a man of God preaches and teaches what the Holy Spirit gives them and the Holy Spirit is the witness to the truth of that message.
Men of God are not entertainers. Go watch a movie or a show, if you want to be entertained
Men of God are not entertainers. Go watch a movie or a show, if you want to be entertained
I understand what you are saying I agree. I wouldn't go to a church I didn't agree, let alone give finances.
I can't speak for anyone else but you have to agree with the work the church and its leadership are doing. To be honest and with integrity.
Do some people think that it is always wrong for a minister to be supported by its congregation? Forgive me if I'm wrong but that's the vibe I'm getting hence why I gave my examples. For some, there may be so much work to be done , its not possible to work an ordinary job, again I can't speak for all. And I'm sure some 'sponge' off the congregation, they will be held accountable. But there are some who are supported by congregations and not 'sponging'.
I can't speak for anyone else but you have to agree with the work the church and its leadership are doing. To be honest and with integrity.
Do some people think that it is always wrong for a minister to be supported by its congregation? Forgive me if I'm wrong but that's the vibe I'm getting hence why I gave my examples. For some, there may be so much work to be done , its not possible to work an ordinary job, again I can't speak for all. And I'm sure some 'sponge' off the congregation, they will be held accountable. But there are some who are supported by congregations and not 'sponging'.
I may not be familiar with the past posts of the OP, but I'll offer a few thoughts...
There is a lot of generalization going on in this thread. It is easy to spew ridicule and criticism in general terms, but in my experience, God doesn't correct in generalizations. It is HIS church, and yes, there are spots and wrinkles still.
There is nothing wrong with someone being paid to minister the Word (1 Tim 5:17-18; 1 Cor 9:7-12). Perhaps some do it out of greed; that doesn't make the rest wrong for receiving a wage. There will be judgment, and it won't be us doing it.
We are each to seek the Lord as to how to support His work, whether the local body, or missions, or in some other way. It's between 'me and Him' only.
I choose to belong to a local congregation which has facilities, which need to be maintained. My contribution helps maintain the facilities, and supports the people who do the maintaining. Similarly, the local body has people who work to present the Gospel to me and to others. Their work is valuable to me so I support it.
Blessings,
Dino
There is a lot of generalization going on in this thread. It is easy to spew ridicule and criticism in general terms, but in my experience, God doesn't correct in generalizations. It is HIS church, and yes, there are spots and wrinkles still.
There is nothing wrong with someone being paid to minister the Word (1 Tim 5:17-18; 1 Cor 9:7-12). Perhaps some do it out of greed; that doesn't make the rest wrong for receiving a wage. There will be judgment, and it won't be us doing it.
We are each to seek the Lord as to how to support His work, whether the local body, or missions, or in some other way. It's between 'me and Him' only.
I choose to belong to a local congregation which has facilities, which need to be maintained. My contribution helps maintain the facilities, and supports the people who do the maintaining. Similarly, the local body has people who work to present the Gospel to me and to others. Their work is valuable to me so I support it.
Blessings,
Dino
M
I agree with most of your post but God does generalize as He speaks on these issues..
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 ¶ By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words;
Ac 20:26 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
33 "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
34 "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.
35 "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
Now here is a real man of God in context of it being more blessed to give than receive
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 ¶ By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words;
Ac 20:26 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
33 "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
34 "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.
35 "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
Now here is a real man of God in context of it being more blessed to give than receive
Some people really did find Paul's pulpit preaching lacking. They said that "his speech is contemptible" (2 Cor. 10:10) and that "he is rude in speech" (2 Cor. 13:6). Apparently, more than just a few people were not impressed by his pulpit delivery, and I seriously doubt they were wrong. After all, if they made such as accusations falsely, anyone who had heard Paul would laugh at them.
But that was never the point. I still hold that for a man to consistently give good messages he needs to be supported so that he can keep doing this week-in-and-week-out, in addition to all the other duties a pastor assumes. And it really puzzles me why so many people want to be stingy, and not make his load a little easier. Good grief, it comes down to just a couple of bucks a week for most congregations.
But that was never the point. I still hold that for a man to consistently give good messages he needs to be supported so that he can keep doing this week-in-and-week-out, in addition to all the other duties a pastor assumes. And it really puzzles me why so many people want to be stingy, and not make his load a little easier. Good grief, it comes down to just a couple of bucks a week for most congregations.
M
Sure...they where carnal...He was teaching spiritual truths ....are they wrong or was Paul wrong? Are we supposed to be seeking men of God to teach or entertainers?
2Co 10:10 "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."
11 Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present.
12 ¶ For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Real men of God are not entertainers...they have the power, authority and wisdom of God....if that is boring to some...them let them repent from walking in the flesh and find life in the Spirit.
2Co 10:10 "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."
11 Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present.
12 ¶ For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Real men of God are not entertainers...they have the power, authority and wisdom of God....if that is boring to some...them let them repent from walking in the flesh and find life in the Spirit.
Lesse.... "teacherss". Which teachers in school did you learn the most from, the dry, inept, ones where you could hardly wait for their classes to end, or the ones who had a reaching, projecting, almost infectious passion?
And the REAL question is for you to notice how antsy people get in the last 15 minutes of a sermon, and how many keys you hear jingling all around the auditorium... people just having one thing on their minds... to get outta there, and beat the Baptists to the restaurant.
I've sat in far too many church services like that to ever again try to fool myself that such inability to speak to an audience is somehow Spiritual just because it is torturous. No, give me a man God actually endowed with the ability to teach. We recognize them in an instant in any other setting, but, for some reason a certain type of person seems to think the man up front has to be stiff and monotone to "REALLY" be preaching.
To me, that is as mistakenly bad as thinking a man has to "hiss" out his sentence ending "S"s, suck in air between phrases, pronounce Lord with a W, and pound his Bible to be truly "preaching." (Think: typical old-time Pentecostal.)
No, give me a straight-talking man who knows how to communicate.
And the REAL question is for you to notice how antsy people get in the last 15 minutes of a sermon, and how many keys you hear jingling all around the auditorium... people just having one thing on their minds... to get outta there, and beat the Baptists to the restaurant.
I've sat in far too many church services like that to ever again try to fool myself that such inability to speak to an audience is somehow Spiritual just because it is torturous. No, give me a man God actually endowed with the ability to teach. We recognize them in an instant in any other setting, but, for some reason a certain type of person seems to think the man up front has to be stiff and monotone to "REALLY" be preaching.
To me, that is as mistakenly bad as thinking a man has to "hiss" out his sentence ending "S"s, suck in air between phrases, pronounce Lord with a W, and pound his Bible to be truly "preaching." (Think: typical old-time Pentecostal.)
No, give me a straight-talking man who knows how to communicate.
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M
This is not carnal wisdom Willie...to relate the two is to deny the very words of scripture...
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 ¶ However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Look if a real man of God is boring to some the problem is not with the man of God, the problem is with the carnal folks that want to be entertained instead of learning sound doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 ¶ However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Look if a real man of God is boring to some the problem is not with the man of God, the problem is with the carnal folks that want to be entertained instead of learning sound doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
A "real" man of God (as you guys like to classify people) wouldn't preach boringly. It honestly IS us swearing that we WILL claim this deadbeat is Spiritual, if it kills us. And he MIGHT be, but that doesn't mean he has the ability to teach.
I had an uncle who preached at a Methodist church in Unicoi who droned on and on for hours. His prayers were often 40 minutes long...... and just about every member rolled their eyes, and made fun of him behind his back. He was just as bad in conversation. He had no idea how to communicate with people.
But those foolish people sat right there, and endured that mess for decades, learning nothing but some basic stuff, over and over and over again......... so pleased with themselves that they were "faithful members."
Frankly, I think there is some sort of sickness to doing that..... from BOTH sides of the pulpit.
I had an uncle who preached at a Methodist church in Unicoi who droned on and on for hours. His prayers were often 40 minutes long...... and just about every member rolled their eyes, and made fun of him behind his back. He was just as bad in conversation. He had no idea how to communicate with people.
But those foolish people sat right there, and endured that mess for decades, learning nothing but some basic stuff, over and over and over again......... so pleased with themselves that they were "faithful members."
Frankly, I think there is some sort of sickness to doing that..... from BOTH sides of the pulpit.
The widow and her two mites - she gave all she had to Gods work - she didn't question if the rabbi's were crooks or not. Jesus took notice of her and said she gave more than the rich people....
I would venture a guess that most ministers have a heart for God and want to do God's work not for riches but for helping in the salvation of souls why punish them for the greed of the few?
It is all God's money anyway He allows you to be stewards of what is His already......are we good and faithful stewards?
I would venture a guess that most ministers have a heart for God and want to do God's work not for riches but for helping in the salvation of souls why punish them for the greed of the few?
It is all God's money anyway He allows you to be stewards of what is His already......are we good and faithful stewards?
I wonder what Paul was like in his speech that made it so reprehensibly different than his manner of writing. I know for myself I can express much better in writing; I do not feel so put on the spot, can edit, rearrange, and have time to really consider what I am going to say, and whether I really want/need to say it. As a Christian I have always found Paul's writing to be incredibly powerful, full of the Spirit of God. I wonder could he really be that different in speech? It seems dichotomous, but possible. On the other hand, people do not like being convicted. Maybe that is what they felt was so contemptible.
My pastor has a large family to support, and himself needs moral, intellectual, and emotional support in the work he does. He is a very loving, very personable man, so this is easy to give. I relate so much to what he has to say relative to his teachings, and he appreciates my feedback. Many in my congregation are this way: personable, appreciative of each other, loving. I feel quite blessed to have found such a church home.
My pastor has a large family to support, and himself needs moral, intellectual, and emotional support in the work he does. He is a very loving, very personable man, so this is easy to give. I relate so much to what he has to say relative to his teachings, and he appreciates my feedback. Many in my congregation are this way: personable, appreciative of each other, loving. I feel quite blessed to have found such a church home.
M
I know your not suggesting that we are supposed to just support anything or anyone that claims to represent God?
And the widow's mite was not an example of giving to false or greedy teachers...it was an example of giving to the true things of God as we have the ability....we have the whole of the New Testament to guide us and we are clearly warned again and again about those who would be controlled by their greed and not to be deceived by these folks.
And the widow's mite was not an example of giving to false or greedy teachers...it was an example of giving to the true things of God as we have the ability....we have the whole of the New Testament to guide us and we are clearly warned again and again about those who would be controlled by their greed and not to be deceived by these folks.
I have a big problem with the scheduled and formatted church. The pastor tells the music director what he is going to preach about and the music director picks songs that is relative to the message. Tell me where is the Holy Spirit in all this.
I love it when the music director doesn't know what the pastor is going to preach on, but the Spirit knows just what song to minister to the church with. I love to see the Spirit work when he is allowed to.
I can usually discern if a person is trying to minister in the flesh.
I love it when the music director doesn't know what the pastor is going to preach on, but the Spirit knows just what song to minister to the church with. I love to see the Spirit work when he is allowed to.
I can usually discern if a person is trying to minister in the flesh.
When Jesus said, "Give to the poor.", He did not say, "Give to only those poor people you have checked out to make sure they are worthy of YOUR money, and will spend it in a way that you approve of.
Same thing with preachers. He did not say, "Do not muzzle the oxen IF he does things the way you think they should be done."
If you are sitting under a man's teaching, support him in ALL ways.
Same thing with preachers. He did not say, "Do not muzzle the oxen IF he does things the way you think they should be done."
If you are sitting under a man's teaching, support him in ALL ways.