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Not at all. Who believes that scientists created the law of gravity or Archimedes' law? The law is called after the man who discovered it, not created it. Big difference. Scientists discover how things work in this universe and they invent the language they use in order to refer to these laws that, again, they discover and observe, they don't invent.
You have to be kidding. The complexity and connectivity which exist in the universe are proof of intelligence. And for the last time, we didn't make the gravity law, we just named it "gravity".
Why is the idea of a creator of the universe so weird for atheists? It's not like humanity began to presuppose the existence of God two days ago.
Although all ancient religions had intuitively presupposed a god they could not go beyond the natural world. None of the pagan gods are actually supra-natural. The pagan gods are either natural/created elements such as sun, moon, storm, trees, stones, individuals (the greek pagan gods), that religious people divinized, either combination of natural elements (lion with human head, for example).
The God that Christians believe in and proclaim is not an element of this universe, neither a product of man's imagination because since God is supra-natural, it means that He doesn't have any equivalent in the world that we know. He created the world, but He is not one with the creation.
So, we can't possibly know/imagine what God is and whatever some atheists say God is (in order to mock us, otherwise I can't explain why they do this) like, Zeus, tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, banana dragon etc., etc., so whatever they say God is, it isn't God, but a product of their imagination. God is supra-natural, supra-logical, uncreated and infinite - all these means that He is ontologically different from us and that we can't possibly know Him unless we make a "quantic jump" out of our existence, into another existential perspective.
Or unless He comes down to us and reveals Himself.
And that's what He did! He revealed Himself to Abraham, to Moses because otherwise, they couldn't have known Him. And ultimately, He came down -kenotically- to our level of existence in order to lift us to His eternal Life. (I did not use the verbs "came down" and "lift" in a spacial sense). So, the incarnation, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the response of God to the humanity's call for Him. Christianity is God saying "Hi" to us. That's why the Apostles were so joyful and fearless in spreading the good news because they were filled with God's love and truth, because you don't hide the light but share it with the rest of the world.
Wow, I wrote a lot. I hope that it wasn't in vain.
You have to be kidding. The complexity and connectivity which exist in the universe are proof of intelligence. And for the last time, we didn't make the gravity law, we just named it "gravity".
Why is the idea of a creator of the universe so weird for atheists? It's not like humanity began to presuppose the existence of God two days ago.
Although all ancient religions had intuitively presupposed a god they could not go beyond the natural world. None of the pagan gods are actually supra-natural. The pagan gods are either natural/created elements such as sun, moon, storm, trees, stones, individuals (the greek pagan gods), that religious people divinized, either combination of natural elements (lion with human head, for example).
The God that Christians believe in and proclaim is not an element of this universe, neither a product of man's imagination because since God is supra-natural, it means that He doesn't have any equivalent in the world that we know. He created the world, but He is not one with the creation.
So, we can't possibly know/imagine what God is and whatever some atheists say God is (in order to mock us, otherwise I can't explain why they do this) like, Zeus, tooth fairy, flying spaghetti monster, banana dragon etc., etc., so whatever they say God is, it isn't God, but a product of their imagination. God is supra-natural, supra-logical, uncreated and infinite - all these means that He is ontologically different from us and that we can't possibly know Him unless we make a "quantic jump" out of our existence, into another existential perspective.
Or unless He comes down to us and reveals Himself.
And that's what He did! He revealed Himself to Abraham, to Moses because otherwise, they couldn't have known Him. And ultimately, He came down -kenotically- to our level of existence in order to lift us to His eternal Life. (I did not use the verbs "came down" and "lift" in a spacial sense). So, the incarnation, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the response of God to the humanity's call for Him. Christianity is God saying "Hi" to us. That's why the Apostles were so joyful and fearless in spreading the good news because they were filled with God's love and truth, because you don't hide the light but share it with the rest of the world.
Wow, I wrote a lot. I hope that it wasn't in vain.
The point is that scientists purport plenty with little to no evidential support, and people accept what they say as being factual and/or true simply because a scientist said it, when it is neither.
Cosmology is fascinating
Can you honestly say the same thing about belief in God right now?
Or do you think people who believe in God really are intellectually inferior, and possibly even delusional, to believe in what you refer to as some magical fairy tale?
For millennia, millions after countless millions have believed in God. Many have experienced Him. He reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him. Such revelations are counted as evidence for those who have such experiences, in the same way one might come to know love by experiencing it, as opposed to just reading about it. That type of evidence is not transferable because you are meant to have your own personal relationship with Him the same way you come to understand love by having your own personal relationship with love. How do you feel about love? Do you understand love to be the organizing principle of all human progress, and the crux of consciousness? Think about that statement. Do you agree with it?
Thank you! I hope you have a wonderful week
Cosmology is fascinating
Can you honestly say the same thing about belief in God right now?
Or do you think people who believe in God really are intellectually inferior, and possibly even delusional, to believe in what you refer to as some magical fairy tale?
For millennia, millions after countless millions have believed in God. Many have experienced Him. He reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him. Such revelations are counted as evidence for those who have such experiences, in the same way one might come to know love by experiencing it, as opposed to just reading about it. That type of evidence is not transferable because you are meant to have your own personal relationship with Him the same way you come to understand love by having your own personal relationship with love. How do you feel about love? Do you understand love to be the organizing principle of all human progress, and the crux of consciousness? Think about that statement. Do you agree with it?
Thank you! I hope you have a wonderful week
If the claim is something huge, like if someone says "GMO's in food cause cancer" I'll likely research that on my own, to find out what I can on something that would effect my life. If the claim is small "a grasshopper can jump 5 times in a minute" I may say "hmm, that's interesting", but I'd be hesitant to use that as evidence if I were to try and pass it off as fact, I'd likely look into it. In short, you can't fact check every claim you hear, but at least be skeptical to ones that have an impact in your life.
"Can you honestly say the same thing about belief in God right now?"
It would be that simple if there were only one god claim being made. Realistically, there are tons of god claims being made and there is a lot that goes into being part of any one religion. I guess after reviewing several of the different religions and what they have to say, couple that with their place in history and background, and I don't find myself just accepting one on it's claims. Even if it is just to feel better.
"Or do you think people who believe in God really are intellectually inferior, and possibly even delusional, to believe in what you refer to as some magical fairy tale?"
When I used that phrase "magical fairy tale", I was not referring directly to the bible or to any religious text for that matter. I was speaking more abstractly, like if someone told me that the world were created by a child's wish and everything will ultimately turn out great for everyone. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but if the evidence of reality showed proof against it, holding that idea just to feel better wouldn't make me happy. I'd feel like I was being dishonest with myself. I'm not saying people are intellectually inferior to me, I'm saying that "I don't know" isn't a bad thing if you are being honest.
"How do you feel about love? Do you understand love to be the organizing principle of all human progress, and the crux of consciousness? Think about that statement. Do you agree with it?"
I feel that love, while so hard to truly define, is really a basic attribute of the human experience. Now, I'm not saying other animals can't feel love, I'm no zoologist and haven't done any studies. However, from my perspective as a person, love is something that most anyone I've talked to has had some type of experience with. I think love was selected by people as being one of the (if not the most) important thing to work to because it has such positive affects on us on an individual basis. Love has it's place among other feelings: Jealousy, Hatred, Sorrow, Empathy, ect. I don't think it is somehow above those other feelings though as far as a concept of human life. People will still do some pretty awful things out of love.
Love is generally a very good thing, but the crux of consciousness? I think there is a lot more that goes into being human. We may strive to love over hate, but it's all feelings that ultimately shape the reality we exist in today. Would it be better if everyone just loved each other all the time? Maybe, but there are conditions in that scenario that might not be good for everyone as people with free will.
I hope I've answered things to your satisfaction. You're welcome to ask more or let me know what you think! Have a great week as well!
He's a public face, he makes some good points, but honestly it's better to do your own pursuit of truth and not take any authorities word as fact. Everyone is subject to question, Dawkins, you, and myself included. I worry about those who follow anyone blindly, I'm an atheist and I don't agree with everything Dawkins says.
This is the second time this has come up, so I'm assuming my wording was not satisfactory to my point. The primary point of my words on scientific law is that people don't make the universe behave, We make it simpler for us to understand by creating equations and terminology that best describes our observation. So I'm not asserting that people cause an apple to fall, but through tests, observations, and documentation we can come up with a "law" that can be used to aid in other research.
I'm much more interested in your second selection, however. There is much to be said here.
"Why is the idea of a creator of the universe so weird for atheists? It's not like humanity began to presuppose the existence of God two days ago."
the problem is when you have a god in the supernatural, you can't observe it, and I don't mean you need look at it with a microscope to know it's existence. What I mean is there is no way to distinguish if what you are talking about is your particular god or anyone else's particular god (if you want to go with a deity at all). This is even if you want to say a god did it cause you see complexity in this universe that you can't possibly fathom happening any other way. You still have not demonstrated who/what this god is or if it had a plan or if it/they is/are subject to a higher authority or natural process. If you suggest that god is not fathomable by human understanding, then you have already admitted you do not know what you are talking about, unless you claim higher knowledge than the rest of mankind. A ton of religions have their texts they follow, but all have been proven to have the flaws of man and not the proof of divinity. Which is another term that carries all kinds of baggage as well. There are a lot of reasons why a creator of the universe is weird to simply assert.
"Although all ancient religions had intuitively presupposed a god they could not go beyond the natural world. None of the pagan gods are actually supra-natural. The pagan gods are either natural/created elements such as sun, moon, storm, trees, stones, individuals (the greek pagan gods), that religious people divinized, either combination of natural elements (lion with human head, for example)."
Isn't it peculiar that as our knowledge of nature shifted so did the abilities of our gods? The sun was a god, until it became a star, Individuals were gods, until they were proven mortal. Now our gods shift further with our understanding moving to horizons we can't reach, remaining ever elusive (that sounds fancier than the message actually is). Makes me question the validity of not just those gods mentioned, but all gods proposed. Wouldn't I be right in being skeptical and questioning if it was my "immortal soul" on the line?
I'm much more interested in your second selection, however. There is much to be said here.
"Why is the idea of a creator of the universe so weird for atheists? It's not like humanity began to presuppose the existence of God two days ago."
the problem is when you have a god in the supernatural, you can't observe it, and I don't mean you need look at it with a microscope to know it's existence. What I mean is there is no way to distinguish if what you are talking about is your particular god or anyone else's particular god (if you want to go with a deity at all). This is even if you want to say a god did it cause you see complexity in this universe that you can't possibly fathom happening any other way. You still have not demonstrated who/what this god is or if it had a plan or if it/they is/are subject to a higher authority or natural process. If you suggest that god is not fathomable by human understanding, then you have already admitted you do not know what you are talking about, unless you claim higher knowledge than the rest of mankind. A ton of religions have their texts they follow, but all have been proven to have the flaws of man and not the proof of divinity. Which is another term that carries all kinds of baggage as well. There are a lot of reasons why a creator of the universe is weird to simply assert.
"Although all ancient religions had intuitively presupposed a god they could not go beyond the natural world. None of the pagan gods are actually supra-natural. The pagan gods are either natural/created elements such as sun, moon, storm, trees, stones, individuals (the greek pagan gods), that religious people divinized, either combination of natural elements (lion with human head, for example)."
Isn't it peculiar that as our knowledge of nature shifted so did the abilities of our gods? The sun was a god, until it became a star, Individuals were gods, until they were proven mortal. Now our gods shift further with our understanding moving to horizons we can't reach, remaining ever elusive (that sounds fancier than the message actually is). Makes me question the validity of not just those gods mentioned, but all gods proposed. Wouldn't I be right in being skeptical and questioning if it was my "immortal soul" on the line?
Your wording is bad. We don't come up with laws. Laws already exist. We only discover them.
The problem is you either didn't read what I said, either you read it but didn't understand it or didn't care to understand it.
Which one is it?
Do you care to find out what christians believe in or you are here just to deliver the same, boring, uninteresting and unintelligent atheist cliches?
Could you address my assertions, instead of ... writing comments that have no continuity at all with what I've said?
I am not going to write again, and spoon feed you. If there is something you didn't understand, please, in all honesty, tell me and I'll be more than happy to clarify.
The problem is you either didn't read what I said, either you read it but didn't understand it or didn't care to understand it.
Which one is it?
Do you care to find out what christians believe in or you are here just to deliver the same, boring, uninteresting and unintelligent atheist cliches?
Could you address my assertions, instead of ... writing comments that have no continuity at all with what I've said?
I am not going to write again, and spoon feed you. If there is something you didn't understand, please, in all honesty, tell me and I'll be more than happy to clarify.
Ok, so last time I'm saying this. We don't cause the motion of the planets or other bodies, we observe them and write down equations that help us predict the motions. If you don't get that then look it up somewhere else.
If you want to get into what Christians believe then we certainly can. However, you made all kinds of assertions about god (what it is and how it works) and I questioned them, rather than answering anything you just said I didn't understand. So, let's try this.
"The God that Christians believe in and proclaim is not an element of this universe, neither a product of man's imagination because since God is supra-natural, it means that He doesn't have any equivalent in the world that we know. He created the world, but He is not one with the creation."
Please tell me why anyone should believe this claim.
Furthermore, what I meant about the gods of old vs your god is that people called the thunder a god then we found out it wasn't. You're god is now out of reach, but this isn't new, it sounds exactly like the "god of the gaps" argument. If you don't know what the "god of the gaps" argument is I'll link you to some information on it. You don't need to "spoon feed" me, let's start with the one particular claim you've made and go from there.
JackTheHatther,
Why not admit that a stupidity came out of your keyboard (that man makes physical laws) instead of being so wordy?
As for the question asked in blue color. The answer is simple: you don't have to believe me. I am just helping you understand what christians believe in. It is honest and fair that when you come on a christian forum, to debate with christians, you learn at least what we believe in, what our faith is. Don't you agree? I wouldn't go on an atheist forum and completely ignore what their ideology/philosophy is. Or if I ignored it, I wouldn't pretend I know what atheism is when in reality, I don't have any clue.
Am I right?
Why not admit that a stupidity came out of your keyboard (that man makes physical laws) instead of being so wordy?
As for the question asked in blue color. The answer is simple: you don't have to believe me. I am just helping you understand what christians believe in. It is honest and fair that when you come on a christian forum, to debate with christians, you learn at least what we believe in, what our faith is. Don't you agree? I wouldn't go on an atheist forum and completely ignore what their ideology/philosophy is. Or if I ignored it, I wouldn't pretend I know what atheism is when in reality, I don't have any clue.
Am I right?
I admitted that I was unclear with my initial definition of laws, but I did clarify that I was referring to the equations and descriptions being the man made, sorry if you're not grasping that.
I read what you believe, I understand that you are telling me how god works in your view, I asked why you believe it in an attempt to create a dialogue and discussion. I've been having good dialogue with other members of this website, they've been informative and respectful and I've done my best to return it. I understand what Christians believe, I've gone to Christian schools for grade school, high school, and college and took religious courses in all three, I professed to be a Christian all the way into my twenties. I was not saying you're beliefs were not valid Christian beliefs. I don't believe you know what Atheism is really. That or your question was "something stupid coming out of your keyboard". You don't seem like someone to have a productive conversation with. Sorry mate, I have better conversations going at this time. I hope you have better encounters with atheists in the future.
I read what you believe, I understand that you are telling me how god works in your view, I asked why you believe it in an attempt to create a dialogue and discussion. I've been having good dialogue with other members of this website, they've been informative and respectful and I've done my best to return it. I understand what Christians believe, I've gone to Christian schools for grade school, high school, and college and took religious courses in all three, I professed to be a Christian all the way into my twenties. I was not saying you're beliefs were not valid Christian beliefs. I don't believe you know what Atheism is really. That or your question was "something stupid coming out of your keyboard". You don't seem like someone to have a productive conversation with. Sorry mate, I have better conversations going at this time. I hope you have better encounters with atheists in the future.
Jack, a lot of your thought process is flawed, gods have not evolved through time, the Israelites have been around since beginning of human history, they were worshipping the single God of today.
I do not have to prove God is real, i know God is real, I tell people about GOd and Jesus, if they want to accept my experience as being divine and that I continue to follow Christ then that is good, but of course most people will just reject what I say and try to convince me I am wrong, just as you are trying to do.
I do not have to prove God is real, i know God is real, I tell people about GOd and Jesus, if they want to accept my experience as being divine and that I continue to follow Christ then that is good, but of course most people will just reject what I say and try to convince me I am wrong, just as you are trying to do.
Whatever.
Your replies show that you didn't understand nothing of what I said. And also that you don't care to learn about christianity. You are here just to see yourself talking/writing.
I doubt I have better encounters with atheists in the future. They all prove to lack honesty, to be ignorant towards the christian faith (but talk about it as if they actually understand it), to be indifferent towards the christian faith and last but not least, to be impolite.
At least that's how they behave on the internet.
Your replies show that you didn't understand nothing of what I said. And also that you don't care to learn about christianity. You are here just to see yourself talking/writing.
I doubt I have better encounters with atheists in the future. They all prove to lack honesty, to be ignorant towards the christian faith (but talk about it as if they actually understand it), to be indifferent towards the christian faith and last but not least, to be impolite.
At least that's how they behave on the internet.
Read your responses to my posts. I've mirrored your attitude and euphemisms. So if I was being rude, it was giving you back what you gave me. I personally have nothing against you, I don't know you.
"Your replies show that you didn't understand nothing of what I said. And also that you don't care to learn about christianity. You are here just to see yourself talking/writing"
I've specifically tried to address your concerns and even gave you the benefit of any doubt and told you what you believe about god is accurate with Christian beliefs. This statement you've made about me is simply not true.
You speak of me not wanting to learn Christian beliefs (which I held for 20+ years) and yet when I ask a questions about Christian beliefs it becomes an issue? Don't judge atheists to be intellectually dishonest. If you don't like your beliefs getting questioned, then don't respond to me.
"Your replies show that you didn't understand nothing of what I said. And also that you don't care to learn about christianity. You are here just to see yourself talking/writing"
I've specifically tried to address your concerns and even gave you the benefit of any doubt and told you what you believe about god is accurate with Christian beliefs. This statement you've made about me is simply not true.
You speak of me not wanting to learn Christian beliefs (which I held for 20+ years) and yet when I ask a questions about Christian beliefs it becomes an issue? Don't judge atheists to be intellectually dishonest. If you don't like your beliefs getting questioned, then don't respond to me.
Nope! God said it HIMSELF. Atheist do not exist! Just prideful humans who want their sin and want to be their own god.
Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.…
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.…
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
So Hinduism, being the oldest religion still being practiced today, would then be the true religion? In the evolution of religion we see polytheistic religions (Egyptian gods n' such) eventually being replaced with monotheistic religions. However, a lot of concepts are borrowed and reused from the different religions.
You know god to be real through personal experience, then you know why you do. I have conversations with people who are willing to be questioned. I apologize if you're reading my conversations with people and it makes you uncomfortable. I wouldn't try to challenge you about your faith unless you specifically addressed me. Feel free not to respond to my post, I don't take it as any type of victory for me.
You know god to be real through personal experience, then you know why you do. I have conversations with people who are willing to be questioned. I apologize if you're reading my conversations with people and it makes you uncomfortable. I wouldn't try to challenge you about your faith unless you specifically addressed me. Feel free not to respond to my post, I don't take it as any type of victory for me.