Have we actually been saved?

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

Here below you go with that faulty argument once again, as the thief on the cross was not under the new covenant.

The new covenant was put into effect after Jesus death on the cross, and this is clearly shown in Hebrews 9:16.
Second the thief would also be an example of one who comes to Christ at the last minutes of their life, not a person who professes Jesus as their Lord but in their walk show by denying to follow what He said.

Wrong Jesus was not talking to the Pharisees in Luke 6:46-49 as we can clearly see that what was spoken after verse 20 was spoken to the disciples;

Luke 6:20
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

ember said:

How active was the faith of the thief on the cross to whom Jesus said he would be with him in glory that very day?

You know, you works guys do just what the religious leaders in Jesus time did...you ADD to the words of God, thereby making a heavy load that breaks backs and NO ONE can manage it

No one has to manage their own load....you can walk crippled out of here, or you can lay it down at the foot of the cross

It is the height of ironic that you mention a false faith . ANY faith apart from what Christ has accomplished for us is FALSE

Yeah? You wanna talk about that? Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees...are you a Pharisee? Do you know what a Pharisee is? Oh you are going to answer that you do know...They did not believe in Jesus. If you believe in Jesus and what HE has done, then you are not a Pharisee

Stop taking scripture out of context. It only shows your lack of ability to understand what is being said.

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”3Jesus answered them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

5Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”6On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled.7The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

9Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”10He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

ember · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

well Kenneth...your personal view is what is actually faulty

relax and enjoy the rest of the day because no matter how much scripture you post, I will still consider your viewpoint to be in serious error

I'm just simplyfing my take on it, because no matter how much scripture is posted by anyone, you will still tell them they are wrong and so it becomes a futile effort and I really do have a busy day ahead of me

I don't understand how you can keep insisting everyone but you is wrong

You are certainly no expert and my views are pretty well honed by those who actually ARE experts, years of Bible study and the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit and a desire to know the truth and to know and understand what I can of God on this earth, in this body and with the mind God in His mercy has desired I have.

The thief on the cross may have understood better to Whom he was talking then some people who like to argue.

Notice, Jesus did not even say to him 'your sins are forgiven'...it was just the acceptance of WHO Jesus was that allowed this condemned man to enter into eternal rest with God

It was basically a case of 'Look maw....no rules!"

You people forget that God decides and does not encumber people with a rulebook. God did not give the law to kill people with it. People constantly try to condemn what God does not condemn.

Guess what? You are the judge of YOURSELF...so you know, not mine or anyone elses

ember · Jul 31, 2015

ps...your desire to prove me wrong, which is not attainable BTW, has clouded your thoughts here ... you are totally contradicting yourself in the above quoted portion of your post

How can the thief be an example of someone who makes a deathbed confession when the New Covenant, as you say, was NOT YET IN EFFECT? Jesus was still alive!!! therefore, He had not yet completed the task set before Him...that task was completed when He stated "IT IS FINISHED"

Seems the thief was kinda in between, eh?

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
(John 19:31-33)

Christ clearly died before the thief did.

so...

what takes away my sin? what bears the penalty of my wickedness in propitiation? by what act am i saved and brought near to the Father?
isn't it the blood of Christ, and that being poured out?

am i waiting for that to happen on some future day -- or has He already taken up that cross for me?
has atonement been made or do we wait for it?
am i waiting to be redeemed from sin or has my price already been paid?
if i am living by faith -- i am looking forward to an everlasting mercy that does not fail, trusting in an act of grace that was foreordained before the world's foundation and culminated on a hill of skulls and an empty tomb a couple thousand years ago.

i'm not waiting until later to see if i will be saved or not. i'm praising God because i have been.
that's "believing"
being 'iffy' about it is unbelief & a lack of trust, IMHO.

Magenta · Jul 31, 2015

John said, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of
the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

posthuman said:

That still does not make or put the thief under the new covenant, because the Lord had mercy on Him and forgave him before He died.

Yes the blood of Christ does cover and give us remission for our sin, but the thing that these now day false teachings do is they do away with how we receive that remission through the Lord.

They constantly say believe only, believe only, believe only, but they do not actually teach the aspect of what believe in the Lord really means. Which leaves it down to a watered down version with no power to save through Christ, because they continue to leave off the active side of a true faith.

What did the Lord say would happen to those who do not repent of sins ?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who do not forgive others ?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who deny to help others in need ?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who call Him Lord but continue to live lawless lives ?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who are not born again (baptized) ?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who do not do the will of the Father in their lives and endure to the end ?

The answer to every single one of those questions above is not they receive eternal life, it says the opposite; They will perish, be cast out into darkness, told I never knew you, sent to eternal punishment, denied before the Father, will not see the kingdom of heaven.

It perplexes me that multiple times the bible says those who love Him, have faith in Him, and trust in Him will keep and do His teachings and commandments. Yet some to many now days say you don't have to !!!

That is another gospel of disobedience that does not have any power to save through Christ.

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

For He says:

In an acceptable time, I heard you, and in the day of salvation, I helped you.

Look, now is the acceptable time; look, now is the day of salvation.
(2 Corinthians 6:2)

this grace having already been shown, and the Lord having already walked among men & performed the work!!
because of this -- as a result of -- therefore:

we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
(2 Corinthians 6:1)

it is not, as the false prophets say "only after you have done all you can do, God helps"
it is that God has helped, so through His help, do all you can do.

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

Magenta said:

Yes Apostle John said that in the 5th chapter of his 1st epistle, and what did he just get done talking about ?

In chapters 2-4 he was talking about our walk in faith and if your actions show one way you know you have eternal life abiding in you, but if your walk matches the other way then you do not. People want to take away the walk from the faith and say it does not matter, but how we walk and act is shown multiple times in the bible that it is the product and evidence of a person who is truly saved.

We will know them by their fruits is what Jesus said, so how can we know a false believer from a true believer if we can still continue to act like we previously did before being born again? We can't as the bible clearly teaches we are to put to death in our mortal bodies the things that cause us to sin.

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

posthuman said:

Yes God does help us which is why He sent His Holy Spirit to us, but we still have our free will to chose to obey the Spirit or give into our flesh again. If we have no free will like some try to teach then we could never sin again at all, because the Lord can not deny Himself, therefore the Spirit can not sin either.

By the Spirit's guidance we are to listen and apply His fruits to our life so that we will not sin and stumble in the faith, but if we do sin and stumble we have an advocate with Him that when we confess our sins He will forgive them.

There however is a big difference in stumbling and continuing to sin every single day willfully !!!

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

Matthew 28:16-20

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Ask yourselves this question: Are you following this command from the Lord or are you teaching and telling others they do not have to obey His teachings for salvation ???

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

ooh! amen! Colossians 3:5

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

now WHY do we do this? is it in order to attain salvation? or because of a salvation whose firstfruit has been received?

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
(Colossians 3:1-4)

it is because WE HAVE DIED AND RISEN WITH HIM already!!

the gospel is cause for joy and gratitude that's barely expressible!!
not further anxiety and doubt. not worry that we're not measuring up.
brother, we didn't measure up. we can't measure up -- this is why Christ came and took our place!

praise God!! my Deliverer lives!

KennethC · Jul 31, 2015

posthuman said:

When quoting Colossians 3:1-4 above you also have to take in account with it;

Colossians 1:22-23

In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

why is it that whenever the truth of the gospel is told,
people think it's "license to go on living in sin" that's being preached?

it's like a frog turned into a prince, but all he wants to do is eat flies.
or a lame man healed who prefers to sit in his wheelchair all day.
a blind man given sight who just squints his eyes closed.
horses trapped in a burning barn whose stall doors have been flung open, but they just stay inside and burn.

is that what you think of us?

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

how about for starts we don't just brush off Colossians 3:1-4 when we quote verse 5, OK?
will you admit that those 4 verses exist before you change the subject?

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

let's go back and start from even closer to the beginning of the letter

. . giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(Colossians 1:12-14)

notice that the Father has qualified us -- past tense.
He has rescued us -- past tense
He has brought us into the kingdom of light -- past tense
we have redemption and we have forgiveness of sins -- present tense.

these things are because of what He has done, not because of what we have done.
what cause for giving joyful thanks is there if all the burden of salvation is on myself?
but oh what cause if He has carried me!!!

if you think i take that and in reply go on living in death, you're sorely mistaken.

3Scoreand10 · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

There you go again Ken.
You believe that God ain't powerful enough to keep you saved. You have to do your WORKS to HELP Him out.
My faith is totally in Him and what He has done and never in my feeble effort to do anything that is rightious.

VioletReigns · Jul 31, 2015

Re: Have we actually been saved?

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Viligant_Warrior · Jul 31, 2015

ToBeWithHim said:

Only if you choose to ignore their context in light of that very verse -- as well as many others that say the same thing

ToBeWithHim said:

You totally misunderstand this verse. What James is saying is that you will have good works because of your faith, out of gratitude and love for Christ and His sacrifice, a sacrifice that was totally unnecessary unless the Father of the universe wanted to have relationship and fellowship with you -- and that He does is proven by Christ's sacrifice.

If you were to fall out of a third story window and a fire fighter rushed to you and broke your fall, enabling you to survive, would you forget that? Highly unlikely. What would you want to do for him or her in gratitude? No matter what you choose, it isn't enough. And neither is anything you can possibly do be "good enough" for Christ. You don't "do" for salvation. You "be" in Christ for salvation.

ToBeWithHim said:

Again, failure to understand the passage. The "chaff" is the unbelievers of this world. He will never call His own "chaff."

ToBeWithHim said:

There are no such teachings in the Bible. The Bible teaches that Christ and Christ alone can save you, and He alone keeps you saved. Far from being an excuse to sin -- a conclusion reached only by someone who says he or she believes but, by their own words, cannot possibly believe -- it provides the impetus, the desire, the craving to love and serve He who has saved us.

ToBeWithHim said:

Written of the "righteousness" of the Pharisees, not as a judgment of believers.

ToBeWithHim said:

The "righteousness" of the Pharisees? The "whitewashed tombs" Christ spoke of? That "righteousness" is not faith to salvation, but trust in self, in fact self-worship. You need to understand the Bible before you make such radical and illogical statements as you've made here.

ToBeWithHim said:

You don't understand it, that's what happened to it.

ToBeWithHim said:

The Holy Spirit abiding in me. How about you?

ToBeWithHim said:

You should have made that all-caps sentence plural -- "statements." I don't mean to offend, and if I have, I apologize. But you make the same errors so many others here who claim to be Christians but depend on their own works to "hold to" salvation when that is an impossible undertaking make. Go back to the word, study it with a good concordance and a Hebrew-Greek to English lexicon beside you, and figure out the truth for yourself. Don't listen to the teachers wholve heretofore misled you.

Elin · Jul 31, 2015

ToBeWithHim said:

Actually, all those things don't "take you out of salvation," they simply show you were never saved in the first place, that your faith was counterfeit (Mt 7:22-23; Lk 8:13).

posthuman · Jul 31, 2015

KennethC said:

not to let this fall by the wayside --
what is "the faith" that we should continue in?
what is "the hope of the gospel" we should not be moved away from?

it is that through what Christ has done, apart from our own works, we have been reconciled to and justified before the Father.
it is that if we put our trust in Him and His grace towards us, not in ourselves, He has given us the power to become sons of God, made us more than slaves, but adopted children & given us a share of the inheritance.

the faith & the hope are not that by us washing the outside of our skins we are made clean.
it is that by the washing of the Word and His blood, we have been made clean from the inside.
the faith & the hope is not that by the flesh we are perfected. it is that this is done by His Spirit.

if you call that "cause to sin" then you haven't understood the gospel.
maybe it's being preached wrongly somewhere - but licentiousness is not what i'm saying, and it's not the gospel i've received.

Have we actually been saved?

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