An Intelligent Faith

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Nov 30, 2013
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#1
Joel and Mark were tow friends with very different beliefs. Joel believed in God as the all-Sovereign King that created everything in the world. Mark was a devout atheist who scoffed at religion and thought the whole world-including himself-came about by accident, a biological mischance. "How did you know that God exists and the Bible isn't just a book of fairy tales?" Mark often challenged. "God exists because the Bible says so and you can trust the Bible because it's God's Word," Joel would reply. Mark would then chuckle at this illogic and say, "That's like saying, 'I am a good worker because Frank says so. How can we trust Frank? Simple: I will vouch for him." The circular logic exhibited by Joel is faulty and will not convince anyone of the existence of God or that the Bible is true. Yet many today have no better reasoning for their belief in the Bible. Is there hard evidence in favor of the Bible's validity? Do intelligence and reasoning go out the window when people become Christians?

The Dream

One way to test the validity of the Bible is to look at its prophecies. One of God's claims is that He, through the Bible, can tell the future (Isaiah 46:9, 10) Examining the historical records of ancient Babylon in the book of Daniel will help answer the question of the Bible's validity. Here we find a king named Nebuchadnezzar, a ruler written about not only in the Bible but other historical records. One night he had a troubling dream. When he awoke, however, he could not remember the dream-only that it haunted him. He summoned his wise men and commanded they tell him his dream and its interpretation. His wise men were baffled at this request. They said, "There is not a man on earth who can tell the king's matter..." (Daniel 2:10-11). The king was infuriated and commanded that all the wise men in Babylon be killed (Daniel 2:12). This is where a Hebrew man named Daniel comes on the scene. Daniel had been taken as a captive to Babylon when he was only a teenager. Daniel was a believer in God. When the King's court official, Arioch, told Daniel about the decree, Daniel went to the king and requested time to tell him his dream and the interpretation. The king agreed. Daniel when home and earnestly sought God for wisdom. God answered his entreaties and, "the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision." (Daniel 2:19).

The Great Statue in History

The next morning Daniel went into the king's throne room and revealed to him his dream. The king had seen a large statue. It was composed of five different sections. The head was of gold, the chest and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of bronze, the legs of iron, and the feet partly of iron and clay, Then a great stone struck the image and smashed it to pieces so it became like chaff which the wind carried away (Daniel 2:31-35). Daniel then told the king the dream's meaning. The head of gold represented Babylon. The silver signified Medo-Persia; the bronze symbolized Greece. The legs of iron represented Rome. The feet and toes of iron mixed with clay represented the divided power of Rome, partly weak and partly strong. Just as Iron does not mix with clay, these nations would not adhere together. The great stone that smashed the image represented the kingdom of God. "And...the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever" (Daniel 2:38-44).

The Fulfillment of the Dream

Each of these predictions of the kingdoms represented by metal came true with unfailing accuracy. The first kingdom, Babylon, ruled the world from 605 to 539 B. C. The nation of the Medes and Persians governed from 539 to331 B. C. The next empire, Greece, dominated from 331 to 168 B. C. The iron power of Rome ruled from 168 B. C. until A. D 476. The last kingdom divided into many smaller kingdoms, represents the divided power of Rome, the modern nations of Europe, which still remain separate today. The Bible was pin point correct on all five kingdoms and what time they would arise.

More Specific Evidence

Skeptics have suggested that Daniel's predictions are false, his book being written at a much later time in history. Even if this were true, the fact that the Dead Sea scrolls contain eight manuscripts from Daniel, the oldest dating to 125 BC (which itself is a copy of an earlier edition), shows that this prophecy was written hundreds of years before the dividing of Rome into the nations of modern Europe. This prophecy is just one example of hundreds which could be cited proving the Bible's inspiration. Another concrete example is seen in the prophecy of Daniel chapter nine where the exact timing of Christ's baptism and death were foretold hundreds of years in advance. Indeed, after an examination of valid evidence such as we have in the Biblical prophecies, we may conclude that God and the Bible can be fully trusted! Daniel chapter two shows us just how true and accurate these predictions are which gives us the grounds to hold intelligent faith. The Bible is the inspired word of God and can be trusted as our guidebook in every circumstance.

However, merely believing this information will make it just that-information. Belief alone has no saving power over our lives. We must be changed by our belief. It is of eternal importance to not only believe the Bible but allow it to change us. The Bible says that "even the demons believe--and tremble!" (James 2:19). God takes our lives and transform them into something beautiful if we let Him. Will you?
 
T

thebesttrees

Guest
#2
Joel and Mark were tow friends with very different beliefs. Joel believed in God as the all-Sovereign King that created everything in the world. Mark was a devout atheist who scoffed at religion and thought the whole world-including himself-came about by accident, a biological mischance. "How did you know that God exists and the Bible isn't just a book of fairy tales?" Mark often challenged. "God exists because the Bible says so and you can trust the Bible because it's God's Word," Joel would reply. Mark would then chuckle at this illogic and say, "That's like saying, 'I am a good worker because Frank says so. How can we trust Frank? Simple: I will vouch for him." The circular logic exhibited by Joel is faulty and will not convince anyone of the existence of God or that the Bible is true. Yet many today have no better reasoning for their belief in the Bible. Is there hard evidence in favor of the Bible's validity? Do intelligence and reasoning go out the window when people become Christians?

The Dream

One way to test the validity of the Bible is to look at its prophecies. One of God's claims is that He, through the Bible, can tell the future (Isaiah 46:9, 10) Examining the historical records of ancient Babylon in the book of Daniel will help answer the question of the Bible's validity. Here we find a king named Nebuchadnezzar, a ruler written about not only in the Bible but other historical records. One night he had a troubling dream. When he awoke, however, he could not remember the dream-only that it haunted him. He summoned his wise men and commanded they tell him his dream and its interpretation. His wise men were baffled at this request. They said, "There is not a man on earth who can tell the king's matter..." (Daniel 2:10-11). The king was infuriated and commanded that all the wise men in Babylon be killed (Daniel 2:12). This is where a Hebrew man named Daniel comes on the scene. Daniel had been taken as a captive to Babylon when he was only a teenager. Daniel was a believer in God. When the King's court official, Arioch, told Daniel about the decree, Daniel went to the king and requested time to tell him his dream and the interpretation. The king agreed. Daniel when home and earnestly sought God for wisdom. God answered his entreaties and, "the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision." (Daniel 2:19).

The Great Statue in History

The next morning Daniel went into the king's throne room and revealed to him his dream. The king had seen a large statue. It was composed of five different sections. The head was of gold, the chest and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of bronze, the legs of iron, and the feet partly of iron and clay, Then a great stone struck the image and smashed it to pieces so it became like chaff which the wind carried away (Daniel 2:31-35). Daniel then told the king the dream's meaning. The head of gold represented Babylon. The silver signified Medo-Persia; the bronze symbolized Greece. The legs of iron represented Rome. The feet and toes of iron mixed with clay represented the divided power of Rome, partly weak and partly strong. Just as Iron does not mix with clay, these nations would not adhere together. The great stone that smashed the image represented the kingdom of God. "And...the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever" (Daniel 2:38-44).

The Fulfillment of the Dream

Each of these predictions of the kingdoms represented by metal came true with unfailing accuracy. The first kingdom, Babylon, ruled the world from 605 to 539 B. C. The nation of the Medes and Persians governed from 539 to331 B. C. The next empire, Greece, dominated from 331 to 168 B. C. The iron power of Rome ruled from 168 B. C. until A. D 476. The last kingdom divided into many smaller kingdoms, represents the divided power of Rome, the modern nations of Europe, which still remain separate today. The Bible was pin point correct on all five kingdoms and what time they would arise.

More Specific Evidence

Skeptics have suggested that Daniel's predictions are false, his book being written at a much later time in history. Even if this were true, the fact that the Dead Sea scrolls contain eight manuscripts from Daniel, the oldest dating to 125 BC (which itself is a copy of an earlier edition), shows that this prophecy was written hundreds of years before the dividing of Rome into the nations of modern Europe. This prophecy is just one example of hundreds which could be cited proving the Bible's inspiration. Another concrete example is seen in the prophecy of Daniel chapter nine where the exact timing of Christ's baptism and death were foretold hundreds of years in advance. Indeed, after an examination of valid evidence such as we have in the Biblical prophecies, we may conclude that God and the Bible can be fully trusted! Daniel chapter two shows us just how true and accurate these predictions are which gives us the grounds to hold intelligent faith. The Bible is the inspired word of God and can be trusted as our guidebook in every circumstance.

However, merely believing this information will make it just that-information. Belief alone has no saving power over our lives. We must be changed by our belief. It is of eternal importance to not only believe the Bible but allow it to change us. The Bible says that "even the demons believe--and tremble!" (James 2:19). God takes our lives and transform them into something beautiful if we let Him. Will you?
Thank you for the post. You have chosen one prophecy though that does not point to Jesus Christ in His First Coming in the way you have presented it. It is rather to His Second Coming. Any impartial judge will readily accept the rise and influence of the Islamic Empire as the fifth kingdom (the feet) the vastness and greatness of which can be appreciated by a simple gleaning from the history books. It even made Jerusalem its holiest city!
 
Nov 30, 2013
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#3
Thank you for the post. You have chosen one prophecy though that does not point to Jesus Christ in His First Coming in the way you have presented it. It is rather to His Second Coming. Any impartial judge will readily accept the rise and influence of the Islamic Empire as the fifth kingdom (the feet) the vastness and greatness of which can be appreciated by a simple gleaning from the history books. It even made Jerusalem its holiest city!



Its true that any impartial judge would think that the Islamic Empire is the fifth kingdom..but if they did a deeper study..they would see that God said that after the wounded beast (Papal Rome was healed (Pagan Rome) which is now Pagan Rome...there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again...this is why you have the mingling of iron with the clay. These are nations who have tried to bring about one nation but God says, it will not be done. The study of history will show us this very thing. Many nations have tried and will try again. The only one kingdom that will rule all nations will be the Rock cut out without man's hands that will break to pieces all nations. This is God Himself and His kingdom will rule forever.
 
T

thebesttrees

Guest
#4
Its true that any impartial judge would think that the Islamic Empire is the fifth kingdom..but if they did a deeper study..they would see that God said that after the wounded beast (Papal Rome was healed (Pagan Rome) which is now Pagan Rome...there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again...this is why you have the mingling of iron with the clay. These are nations who have tried to bring about one nation but God says, it will not be done. The study of history will show us this very thing. Many nations have tried and will try again. The only one kingdom that will rule all nations will be the Rock cut out without man's hands that will break to pieces all nations. This is God Himself and His kingdom will rule forever.[/QUOTE

You say and I quote

there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again

Please use the Scriptures to support your point. And I hope that by "world" you would mean certain parts of the planet and not areas such as China. South America, etc....
 
L

LT

Guest
#5
The OP did a great job.
I think exploring other prophecies and fulfillment would add a lot to this thread.

Devolving into discussions about the dispensationalist assumptions is not going to help anything.
 

Jenizona

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2015
629
28
0
#6
Joel and Mark were tow friends with very different beliefs. Joel believed in God as the all-Sovereign King that created everything in the world. Mark was a devout atheist who scoffed at religion and thought the whole world-including himself-came about by accident, a biological mischance. "How did you know that God exists and the Bible isn't just a book of fairy tales?" Mark often challenged. "God exists because the Bible says so and you can trust the Bible because it's God's Word," Joel would reply. Mark would then chuckle at this illogic and say, "That's like saying, 'I am a good worker because Frank says so. How can we trust Frank? Simple: I will vouch for him." The circular logic exhibited by Joel is faulty and will not convince anyone of the existence of God or that the Bible is true. Yet many today have no better reasoning for their belief in the Bible. Is there hard evidence in favor of the Bible's validity? Do intelligence and reasoning go out the window when people become Christians?

The Dream

One way to test the validity of the Bible is to look at its prophecies. One of God's claims is that He, through the Bible, can tell the future (Isaiah 46:9, 10) Examining the historical records of ancient Babylon in the book of Daniel will help answer the question of the Bible's validity. Here we find a king named Nebuchadnezzar, a ruler written about not only in the Bible but other historical records. One night he had a troubling dream. When he awoke, however, he could not remember the dream-only that it haunted him. He summoned his wise men and commanded they tell him his dream and its interpretation. His wise men were baffled at this request. They said, "There is not a man on earth who can tell the king's matter..." (Daniel 2:10-11). The king was infuriated and commanded that all the wise men in Babylon be killed (Daniel 2:12). This is where a Hebrew man named Daniel comes on the scene. Daniel had been taken as a captive to Babylon when he was only a teenager. Daniel was a believer in God. When the King's court official, Arioch, told Daniel about the decree, Daniel went to the king and requested time to tell him his dream and the interpretation. The king agreed. Daniel when home and earnestly sought God for wisdom. God answered his entreaties and, "the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision." (Daniel 2:19).

The Great Statue in History

The next morning Daniel went into the king's throne room and revealed to him his dream. The king had seen a large statue. It was composed of five different sections. The head was of gold, the chest and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of bronze, the legs of iron, and the feet partly of iron and clay, Then a great stone struck the image and smashed it to pieces so it became like chaff which the wind carried away (Daniel 2:31-35). Daniel then told the king the dream's meaning. The head of gold represented Babylon. The silver signified Medo-Persia; the bronze symbolized Greece. The legs of iron represented Rome. The feet and toes of iron mixed with clay represented the divided power of Rome, partly weak and partly strong. Just as Iron does not mix with clay, these nations would not adhere together. The great stone that smashed the image represented the kingdom of God. "And...the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever" (Daniel 2:38-44).

The Fulfillment of the Dream

Each of these predictions of the kingdoms represented by metal came true with unfailing accuracy. The first kingdom, Babylon, ruled the world from 605 to 539 B. C. The nation of the Medes and Persians governed from 539 to331 B. C. The next empire, Greece, dominated from 331 to 168 B. C. The iron power of Rome ruled from 168 B. C. until A. D 476. The last kingdom divided into many smaller kingdoms, represents the divided power of Rome, the modern nations of Europe, which still remain separate today. The Bible was pin point correct on all five kingdoms and what time they would arise.

More Specific Evidence

Skeptics have suggested that Daniel's predictions are false, his book being written at a much later time in history. Even if this were true, the fact that the Dead Sea scrolls contain eight manuscripts from Daniel, the oldest dating to 125 BC (which itself is a copy of an earlier edition), shows that this prophecy was written hundreds of years before the dividing of Rome into the nations of modern Europe. This prophecy is just one example of hundreds which could be cited proving the Bible's inspiration. Another concrete example is seen in the prophecy of Daniel chapter nine where the exact timing of Christ's baptism and death were foretold hundreds of years in advance. Indeed, after an examination of valid evidence such as we have in the Biblical prophecies, we may conclude that God and the Bible can be fully trusted! Daniel chapter two shows us just how true and accurate these predictions are which gives us the grounds to hold intelligent faith. The Bible is the inspired word of God and can be trusted as our guidebook in every circumstance.

However, merely believing this information will make it just that-information. Belief alone has no saving power over our lives. We must be changed by our belief. It is of eternal importance to not only believe the Bible but allow it to change us. The Bible says that "even the demons believe--and tremble!" (James 2:19). God takes our lives and transform them into something beautiful if we let Him. Will you?

Okay, so I have a huge problem with this. I don't know if there are any "don't plagiarize" rules for these forums, but I strongly believe there should be. I can't stand it when people pass off someone else's work as their own. Please give credit to the original author, or better yet, a link to something if you want to discuss it. The original post has footnotes and sources, which were omitted when you cut and pasted it to the forums.

Here is the link to this article as I found it on the internet.
http://www.glowcentral.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/3-pdf.pdf
 
Nov 30, 2013
682
10
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#7
Its true that any impartial judge would think that the Islamic Empire is the fifth kingdom..but if they did a deeper study..they would see that God said that after the wounded beast (Papal Rome was healed (Pagan Rome) which is now Pagan Rome...there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again...this is why you have the mingling of iron with the clay. These are nations who have tried to bring about one nation but God says, it will not be done. The study of history will show us this very thing. Many nations have tried and will try again. The only one kingdom that will rule all nations will be the Rock cut out without man's hands that will break to pieces all nations. This is God Himself and His kingdom will rule forever.[/QUOTE

You say and I quote

there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again

Please use the Scriptures to support your point. And I hope that by "world" you would mean certain parts of the planet and not areas such as China. South America, etc....


Daniel 7


1. In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by nigh, and behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3. And four great beast came up from the sea, diverse on from another.
4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings; I had beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a forth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong, exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake into pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it and it was diverse from all the beast that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8. I considered the horn, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him; thousand thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake; I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12. As concerning the rest of the beast, they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13. I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

23. Thus he said, The forth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise; and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26: But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
28. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: I kept the matter in my heart.

Daniel 2


40. And the forth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forsamuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41. And where as thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, partly broken.
43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut our of the mountain with hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


A recent historical event was Saddam Hussein's Babylonian Palace that he tried to rebuild in 1983 but God said in the book of Isaiah of the 13th chapter verses 19-22:


And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation; neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
But wild beast of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance here.
And the wild beast of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.


Likewise the United States and Rome will again try to do this very thing (One World Order) that God said will not cleave together. Bush Sr. spoke about this One World Order when he was in office on September 11, 1991. His New World Order speech. His speech is on You Tube.


This is the lamb like beast that is talked about in the book of Revelation. America is very much in prophecy that will clasp hands with the Papal Power aka Rome in September of this year 2015 to bring about this Sunday Law that has been all over the news of late. This will not be just a simple visit but a visit that will affect our economy and our freedom of religion.


May you be blessed brother as you continue to study this prophecy.
 
Nov 30, 2013
682
10
0
#8
Oh and by the way, 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4:

3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethern, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

September 21, 2015, President Barrack Obama announced International Day of Peace. His speech is also on You Tube.

This is for sure America in Prophecy who will clasp the hand across the gulf with the Papal Power to bring these events to pass.

The Bible reads like a news paper and its never wrong.
 
T

thebesttrees

Guest
#9
Oh and by the way, 1 Thessalonians 5:3-4:

3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethern, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

September 21, 2015, President Barrack Obama announced International Day of Peace. His speech is also on You Tube.

This is for sure America in Prophecy who will clasp the hand across the gulf with the Papal Power to bring these events to pass.

The Bible reads like a news paper and its never wrong.
Thank you for sharing Daniel 7 and the reference to the FOURTH KINGDOM. Details are given about the fourth kingdom such as the ten horns. etc. This kingdom again does not refer to the Roman Empire as it does not fit the ten horns. etc. You can search for it successfully amount the Islamic dynasties though. A little bit of historical research will show you this clearly. Just look for TEN kings! Moreover, this prophecy is also pointing to the end times and not the First Coming further confirmation that the fifth kingdom in Daniel 2 is the Islamic one and quite distinct from the Roman Empire.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,307
1,097
113
#10
I see value in Apologetics being able to enlighten God's truths but I don't see Apologetics having any value in opening heavens doors. As a Psychology Major in College I always I had concluded that there was a lot of Psychology in Scripture, but I saw less and less of Christ in it the further in I studied. In fact, I saw none of Him in it unless one made a personal decision to make the connection. Logic has the same base of reasoning in us as our Spirit does. So to try and reason Satan's original sin found in us before regeneration simply will not work! Unless you think you can be the first to do so...careful Satan may have you think of yourself to be that clever! When we preach it is God knocking not logics conclusion that takes the common sense and works it in. He doesn't need well equipped campaign managers, He needs men, completely surrendered to Him, to deliver Gods concerns thru His Word for the needs of others thru the understanding that the Holy Spirit has wrought out thru him..

God says His truths will both set us free and will be provable, even self-evident.Yet, what He shows may or not be interpreted in the way He knows them to be true in us.....This , again will depend on the Spirit in us. To have real wisdom one must have the guidance of His Spirit in us first, to transform our thinking thru the real-time transformation of the Holy Spirit unto Gods reasoning..The HS knocks at our door from the outside, He comes to us while we are still in that wrong over-controlling Spirit of death, He places conviction toward a decision of faithfulness, but never His understanding before that, for how could we grasp or hold on to it?. Ephesians shows us how God has us first sit in things already accomplished in Christ always before standing against Satan. He does ask us to Stand but it cannot be successful without this order of events being set in first sitting. Being placed by God, who has placed Jesus at His right hand and us in Him..

When we read the term 'transform' it is a moving word from something to another something. This transformation is thru a Word that is described as 'alive' unto His Spirit and the Holy Spirit as a regenerated Christian is also alive in us directly as well interceding. There are two kinds of wisdom: from above and From below.

James 3:13-17 Demonstrates the only true wisdom, thru faith. Not knowledge unto faith. There is knowledge in God but not God in knowledge without first having Christ in it. Based on this God goes on in 1 Cor. 1:18-31 to share how He will destroy the wisdom of the wise.

Be forewarned if anyone thinks they can out debate Satan one- on- one, or with what God has sent to you, unless it is Christ Himself! He will win!, and what's worse is he will leave you thinking you have gained wisdom, neigh, even, God's wisdom!; Angel of light.

We cannot debate the reasoning of God with Satan ruling our original sin position, however, nor can we debate God with a lack of faith in His delivery of the truth either, which is to say it is His fight and not our own.. For this is the return of debating not from victory but for victory. In as much as this happens God no longer can guarantee your protection from Satan's influence any longer unless you return to a sold out faithful, foolish position in the world wisdom; stance, found in Christ Jesus our Lord!

The over value of logic puts us in a 'clever' position. 1 Cor. 3: 19-21 speaks about clever people. If what you seek in logic pointing to God then you must lose your cleverness and simply believe in things yet, God ordains your work first, you need not gain ground for God's sake. Both will cost us in effort, but one will have fruit and one will not of God. God has shown Himself to you, thru His walk here, it is up to you to believe in that or not first, before true wisdom will come in way of revelation. We need only to show Scripture not logic accurately. Logic is in there, but the Word is not in logic as a premise.

To the world Christian faith is both stupid, and naive, but to God is our total surrender releasing His every resource including understanding, and His glory.
 
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Nov 30, 2013
682
10
0
#11
I see value in Apologetics being able to enlighten God's truths but I don't see Apologetics having any value in opening heavens doors. As a Psychology Major in College I always I had concluded that there was a lot of Psychology in Scripture, but I saw less and less of Christ in it the further in I studied. In fact, I saw none of Him in it unless one made a personal decision to make the connection. Logic has the same base of reasoning in us as our Spirit does. So to try and reason Satan's original sin found in us before regeneration simply will not work! Unless you think you can be the first to do so...careful Satan may have you think of yourself to be that clever! When we preach it is God knocking not logics conclusion that takes the common sense and works it in. He doesn't need well equipped campaign managers, He needs men, completely surrendered to Him, to deliver Gods concerns thru His Word for the needs of others thru the understanding that the Holy Spirit has wrought out thru him..

God says His truths will both set us free and will be provable, even self-evident.Yet, what He shows may or not be interpreted in the way He knows them to be true in us.....This , again will depend on the Spirit in us. To have real wisdom one must have the guidance of His Spirit in us first, to transform our thinking thru the real-time transformation of the Holy Spirit unto Gods reasoning..The HS knocks at our door from the outside, He comes to us while we are still in that wrong over-controlling Spirit of death, He places conviction toward a decision of faithfulness, but never His understanding before that, for how could we grasp or hold on to it?. Ephesians shows us how God has us first sit in things already accomplished in Christ always before standing against Satan. He does ask us to Stand but it cannot be successful without this order of events being set in first sitting. Being placed by God, who has placed Jesus at His right hand and us in Him..

When we read the term 'transform' it is a moving word from something to another something. This transformation is thru a Word that is described as 'alive' unto His Spirit and the Holy Spirit as a regenerated Christian is also alive in us directly as well interceding. There are two kinds of wisdom: from above and From below.

James 3:13-17 Demonstrates the only true wisdom, thru faith. Not knowledge unto faith. There is knowledge in God but not God in knowledge without first having Christ in it. Based on this God goes on in 1 Cor. 1:18-31 to share how He will destroy the wisdom of the wise.

Be forewarned if anyone thinks they can out debate Satan one- on- one, or with what God has sent to you, unless it is Christ Himself! He will win!, and what's worse is he will leave you thinking you have gained wisdom, neigh, even, God's wisdom!; Angel of light.

We cannot debate the reasoning of God with Satan ruling our original sin position, however, nor can we debate God with a lack of faith in His delivery of the truth either, which is to say it is His fight and not our own.. For this is the return of debating not from victory but for victory. In as much as this happens God no longer can guarantee your protection from Satan's influence any longer unless you return to a sold out faithful, foolish position in the world wisdom; stance, found in Christ Jesus our Lord!

The over value of logic puts us in a 'clever' position. 1 Cor. 3: 19-21 speaks about clever people. If what you seek in logic pointing to God then you must lose your cleverness and simply believe in things yet, God ordains your work first, you need not gain ground for God's sake. Both will cost us in effort, but one will have fruit and one will not of God. God has shown Himself to you, thru His walk here, it is up to you to believe in that or not first, before true wisdom will come in way of revelation. We need only to show Scripture not logic accurately. Logic is in there, but the Word is not in logic as a premise.

To the world Christian faith is both stupid, and naive, but to God is our total surrender releasing His every resource including understanding, and His glory.


Thank you slave for reminding us that its about the Revelation of Jesus Christ through faith we are saved and its through faith that if we don't have it, its impossible to please Him and understand His wisdom in order to navigate through scripture that we may see this self sacrificing love, mercy and grace to open the eyes of the blind that we may not be deceived by the cloak of Satan.

Jesus when tempted by Satan only quoted: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceed out out of the mouth of God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
13,440
113
#12
It is possible to "prove" the existence of God in a logical sense (and that is the only way "proof" works; everything else is assent, experience or consensus). Strangely enough it can be done without quoting the Bible, though one may. I haven't mastered the argument yet, though it goes like this...

If we are the product of evolution, then we have no objective basis for morality and no source of laws of logic. Yet both exist, and you'd be hard-pressed to find an atheist who rejects them consistently. Given the existence of both, there must be a source, since neither may come about by time + matter + chance. So given that there must be a source, it must be outside matter/energy, because these things are neither. Ergo there is a super-natural source. Posit God the Creator. Every other suggested source for these things only relocates the problem but does not resolve it.

There are YouTube videos which explain this in much more and better detail but that's the essence of it. So no, reason and intelligence don't go out the window; rather, these things are actually founded in Christ. Proverbs 3:5. :)
 
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#15
I see value in Apologetics being able to enlighten God's truths but I don't see Apologetics having any value in opening heavens doors. As a Psychology Major in College I always I had concluded that there was a lot of Psychology in Scripture, but I saw less and less of Christ in it the further in I studied. In fact, I saw none of Him in it unless one made a personal decision to make the connection. Logic has the same base of reasoning in us as our Spirit does. So to try and reason Satan's original sin found in us before regeneration simply will not work! Unless you think you can be the first to do so...careful Satan may have you think of yourself to be that clever! When we preach it is God knocking not logics conclusion that takes the common sense and works it in. He doesn't need well equipped campaign managers, He needs men, completely surrendered to Him, to deliver Gods concerns thru His Word for the needs of others thru the understanding that the Holy Spirit has wrought out thru him..

God says His truths will both set us free and will be provable, even self-evident.Yet, what He shows may or not be interpreted in the way He knows them to be true in us.....This , again will depend on the Spirit in us. To have real wisdom one must have the guidance of His Spirit in us first, to transform our thinking thru the real-time transformation of the Holy Spirit unto Gods reasoning..The HS knocks at our door from the outside, He comes to us while we are still in that wrong over-controlling Spirit of death, He places conviction toward a decision of faithfulness, but never His understanding before that, for how could we grasp or hold on to it?. Ephesians shows us how God has us first sit in things already accomplished in Christ always before standing against Satan. He does ask us to Stand but it cannot be successful without this order of events being set in first sitting. Being placed by God, who has placed Jesus at His right hand and us in Him..

When we read the term 'transform' it is a moving word from something to another something. This transformation is thru a Word that is described as 'alive' unto His Spirit and the Holy Spirit as a regenerated Christian is also alive in us directly as well interceding. There are two kinds of wisdom: from above and From below.

James 3:13-17 Demonstrates the only true wisdom, thru faith. Not knowledge unto faith. There is knowledge in God but not God in knowledge without first having Christ in it. Based on this God goes on in 1 Cor. 1:18-31 to share how He will destroy the wisdom of the wise.

Be forewarned if anyone thinks they can out debate Satan one- on- one, or with what God has sent to you, unless it is Christ Himself! He will win!, and what's worse is he will leave you thinking you have gained wisdom, neigh, even, God's wisdom!; Angel of light.

We cannot debate the reasoning of God with Satan ruling our original sin position, however, nor can we debate God with a lack of faith in His delivery of the truth either, which is to say it is His fight and not our own.. For this is the return of debating not from victory but for victory. In as much as this happens God no longer can guarantee your protection from Satan's influence any longer unless you return to a sold out faithful, foolish position in the world wisdom; stance, found in Christ Jesus our Lord!

The over value of logic puts us in a 'clever' position. 1 Cor. 3: 19-21 speaks about clever people. If what you seek in logic pointing to God then you must lose your cleverness and simply believe in things yet, God ordains your work first, you need not gain ground for God's sake. Both will cost us in effort, but one will have fruit and one will not of God. God has shown Himself to you, thru His walk here, it is up to you to believe in that or not first, before true wisdom will come in way of revelation. We need only to show Scripture not logic accurately. Logic is in there, but the Word is not in logic as a premise.

To the world Christian faith is both stupid, and naive, but to God is our total surrender releasing His every resource including understanding, and His glory.
Its not satan's sin. Its Adam's sin that is referred to as Original Sin
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#16
... (Papal Rome was healed (Pagan Rome) which is now Pagan Rome...
That's an assumption about prophecy that I think you would find it difficult to support biblically, historically, or contextually.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#17
That's an assumption about prophecy that I think you would find it difficult to support biblically, historically, or contextually.
Not really a problem when all she does is copy-paste other people's writing.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,307
1,097
113
#18
Its not satan's sin. Its Adam's sin that is referred to as Original Sin
That's correct it was Adam that introduced us to sin, which Satan is attached and now rules until Christ's cross. Both in the timetable of History and individually within us. Your point of correction was for what purpose again? If this [point] was not clear I stand corrected.
 
T

tanach

Guest
#19
atwhat cost Whether the writings are copy pasted or not they stem from SDA theology inspired by Ellen White among others.
Like the JWs they have their own translation of the Bible as well. I'm waiting for a post where SDA affiliation is admitted although the nick name alone is a big giveaway
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#20
Its true that any impartial judge would think that the Islamic Empire is the fifth kingdom..but if they did a deeper study..they would see that God said that after the wounded beast (Papal Rome was healed (Pagan Rome) which is now Pagan Rome...there would never be a earthly nation that would have total rule over the world again...this is why you have the mingling of iron with the clay. These are nations who have tried to bring about one nation but God says, it will not be done. The study of history will show us this very thing. Many nations have tried and will try again. The only one kingdom that will rule all nations will be the Rock cut out without man's hands that will break to pieces all nations. This is God Himself and His kingdom will rule forever.

LOL the words of a believer. There are absolutely no grounds on which an impartial judge would see a fifth kingdom in Dan 2. It is purely idle speculation. In each of Daniel's prophecies there are FOUR kingdoms. Why should anyone imagine a fifth? In order to fit in with someone's prophetic speculations? What kind of evidence is that?

Incidentally no nation has ever had total world rule in our sense, and no nation that ever will
 
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