Departure From Oblivion!
- Thread starter Shoshanah
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
Well I have intensive study in the scriptures, Jewish history and customs, and also how the law is applied.
The 613 Mosaic laws (written ordinances/spirit of bondage) served its purpose to bring us to Christ as Galatians clearly says, but after we come to the Lord in the faith we are no longer under that law to obey it.
We are now under grace and we walk by the Spirit (perfect law of liberty), which consists of what Jesus said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John plus the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The law does not justify, sanctify, save, nor do we serve the law.
We serve the Lord for we are under the free woman, we are no longer under the bond woman which was the law. The covenant made at Mount Sinai where the laws were given is of the bond woman as Galatians says.
For Galatians 4:30-31 says the bond woman will not share in the inheritance of eternal life with the free woman.
E
yeah Shoshana...probably most of us can say the same thing...didn't mean for things to go south
it all depends on who responds, yes? on how the thread will go (I'm sure you know that but it is the major factor, IMO, in whether the thread is uplifting, so-so, just plain dumb or turns into a battle for control of the world...we can also factor in subject matter, personal gripes, vendettas against another poster ( very Christian but it happens) and hobby horses.
Then we also have the shoot from the hip, from the mouth and from the opinion posters that are not evah gonna agree...they had a fight at home, can't express their rage and so blast people here. Turns out Christians are just folks. haha...we all have such high expectations and to top it off, we have the faceless exchange wherein some fancy the other poster is angry or making fun and blah blah blah...
and then we have the ones who insult and use sarcasim as if they just discovered it and then use a smiley face to cover their actual nasty post...whatever
well ok...enough analysis....
ditto
and then we will have a convoluted disucssion/arguement, on what spiritually discerned means and that is the key and yet I can pretty much promise you, that things will go south quickly
one of the biggest disagreements in these forums is teaching on the Holy Spirit...that and the OSAS and "I don't sin anymore threads'
I 100% agree with you that the OT is as important as the New and as things devolve, (in general, not just in discussions...one reflects the other IMO) we may really need to better understand what some would like to not even bother with at all
FYI, and you prob already know it, this thread contains all 3 elements I mentionned above with regard to touchy subjects here
Whole Bible please, EVERY word from the mouth of God, do not ignore parts and try to tell me I have it wrong because I believe it all and believe it all has relevance today as much as it ever had anytime in history.
See, I can ask what you all do with certain scriptures like where Jesus Himself quotes Deuteronomy in the wilderness those 40 days, but I have yet to get an answer. Since I can't get a staright answer, I don't have much confidence in a doctrine someone is trying make me believe when I can, and have many times on this thread already, give reasons for what I believe without throwing away a single word from Genesis through Revelation. The Bible must agree with itself or one has the wrong understanding of what they've read.
See, I can ask what you all do with certain scriptures like where Jesus Himself quotes Deuteronomy in the wilderness those 40 days, but I have yet to get an answer. Since I can't get a staright answer, I don't have much confidence in a doctrine someone is trying make me believe when I can, and have many times on this thread already, give reasons for what I believe without throwing away a single word from Genesis through Revelation. The Bible must agree with itself or one has the wrong understanding of what they've read.
Where have I said I want to place people into bondage of the law?
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Matthew 5:6
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:35
Same thing goes for the law of God. Not the letter but His own spoken words. The carnal mind cannot comprehend the spiritual aspects of the law "for to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)
Rather than argue with carnal rhetoric, as you have portrayed, why not edify with spiritual thoughts concerning all of God's word rather than just a portion of it?
That post of yours that I replied to was nothing but carnal innuendos to shoshanah. I thought it was very inappropriate for a believer in Christ.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Matthew 5:6
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:35
Same thing goes for the law of God. Not the letter but His own spoken words. The carnal mind cannot comprehend the spiritual aspects of the law "for to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)
Rather than argue with carnal rhetoric, as you have portrayed, why not edify with spiritual thoughts concerning all of God's word rather than just a portion of it?
That post of yours that I replied to was nothing but carnal innuendos to shoshanah. I thought it was very inappropriate for a believer in Christ.
K
I am not missing the point as the old covenant with the Mosaic laws made at Mount Sinai is called the bond woman, because the law by showing us our transgressions brought death instead of life as Apostle Paul said.
The Mosaic laws are called a spirit of bondage, as multiple times the scriptures refer to those who believe they have to obey them are still under that bondage.
We are under grace and in that grace there is the perfect law of liberty which is completely separate from the Mosaic laws.
The perfect law of liberty is what the Lord taught and commanded in the gospel books, and nowhere did He say all those laws had to be followed.
Even when the rich man came to Jesus he asked what he needed to do, and all Jesus referred to was the 10 Commandments by naming a few of them. He told the Lord that he had kept them from his youth what else does he lack ?
Lord Jesus told him to go sell everything he had and give it to the poor and follow Him and he would be perfect.
He did not tell the rich man you need to keep and obey all 613 Mosaic laws.
I have read it many times to also. the Bible must be rightly divided, when you wrongly connect it, you make it say things that it does not. notice how Jesus said, you have heard it said, but I say to you.... also, what part of not under the law, but under grace do you not get?? also, Titus 3 whole chapter, I could go on if you want. the point is anyone saying we have to be under O.T. law is wrong. period.
I did some research on the Hebrew words for "covenant" "law" "commandments" "testimony" and even the word for the "10 commandments." If you, or anybody else is interested, I will post what I have studied.
None of those are in relation to each other as far as the meaning. In others words the law is a totally different word that covenant. Go figure.
They are all related concerning the spoken word of God, but they are certainly not the same meaning that the old covenant was replaced but not the contents.
Testament, the testimony of God Almighty, is what is contained by the covenant.
None of those are in relation to each other as far as the meaning. In others words the law is a totally different word that covenant. Go figure.
They are all related concerning the spoken word of God, but they are certainly not the same meaning that the old covenant was replaced but not the contents.
Testament, the testimony of God Almighty, is what is contained by the covenant.
K
But the law that is being referred to is the perfect law of liberty (Christ's teachings and commands), not the Mosaic laws.
How many times does the new testament have to say the Mosaic laws hold people in bondage.
Trying to uphold and obey them all keeps you still in that bondage, and the carnal mind is what Paul says thinks this way.
For he said of himself because of the laws he is carnal sold under sin and asked who could redeem him from that way, and in the very next chapter shows how and that is by walking by the Spirit.
Which means you walk in love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, long-suffering, self-control, gentleness, and faithfulness.
The only written ordinances from the old covenant Mosaic laws that are showed to be upheld in the new covenant are the 10 Commandments and those few mentioned in Acts 15:20,29.
The bible says multiple times we are not under the law, calls it a law of bondage, Apostle Paul says it brought death instead of life, it is the bond woman who has no inheritance with the free woman.
To obey the old covenant laws means you are bond to all of them, and if you break even one aspect of it then you are guilty of all. Therefore you are still held to the cleansing rituals, if you grow crops/have a garden you are to give 10% of it away for free to the poor, and so on....
This is amazing! I was studying the same thing and guess what - I'm not waiting for him to say he's interested! Here it is:
I did some research and found that what is so often tossed around as “the law” in scripture can be one of several different words, all meaning something different.
Covenant (בְּרִיתִ) Covenant (Exodus 24:7) confederacy, league
Law (תּוֹרָה) Law Torah “decalogue” (Exodus 24:12), the related Greek word “dialog” is reasoning with a spoken word
Testimony (עֵדוּת) testimony placed within the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:2)
Commandment (צָוָה) Commandment (Deuteronomy 1:3) to constitute
10 commandments a different word still! דָּבָר ) “10 commandments” 10 sayings/10words (Exodus 34:28) It isn't a complete study yet but thought it was so uncanny that you would post what you did just now. And thanks for sticking up for me!
I did some research and found that what is so often tossed around as “the law” in scripture can be one of several different words, all meaning something different.
Covenant (בְּרִיתִ) Covenant (Exodus 24:7) confederacy, league
Law (תּוֹרָה) Law Torah “decalogue” (Exodus 24:12), the related Greek word “dialog” is reasoning with a spoken word
Testimony (עֵדוּת) testimony placed within the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:2)
Commandment (צָוָה) Commandment (Deuteronomy 1:3) to constitute
10 commandments a different word still! דָּבָר ) “10 commandments” 10 sayings/10words (Exodus 34:28) It isn't a complete study yet but thought it was so uncanny that you would post what you did just now. And thanks for sticking up for me!
That "get out of stoning for breaking the law given to Moses BY GOD concerning adultery" ticket should seemed handy for some woman out there.
But, how does that change the Law? And the weight thereof (which was lifted concerning the adulterous woman) And I'm sure PLENTY of Christians, including scholars who have not only read and studied this in the limited English but the original languages and cultures as well, also believe it's a "get out of hell" ticket. That's kinda what it is, cause you have "no chance in hell" of avoiding it otherwise by following the Law.
I have been guilty of this and I do try to avoid such, but it is spiritually childish to accuse another Christian of not being learned or taking their faith seriously because they disagree with you. And yet no one on here proclaiming a return to the Law has actually LAID OUT what that would look like and HOW Christians should go about doing this.
Unless it simply means "Agree with me."
Well, let's just go ahead and judge the intentions and hearts of people because they disagree with us! People we never even met personally! Forget about that whole "man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart" law in the OT somewhere...
I sympathize with frustration due to complacency and apathy, but you know, someone CAN believe in a separation between the OT and the NT and STILL practice their faith and grow in sanctification. Millions do this every day. Some persecuted Christians do this WITHOUT A BIBLE... you know, cause the ones they had were burned, if they owned one to begin with.
I'll pose the question I already have, I think twice now on this thread:
"Return to the Law" means WHAT? "Return" would indicate a change should take place in the Church - what is that change? Besides "obeying the Law," (plenty of laws and guides for Christians in the NT, yet funny there's no call to return to any of these that broken all the time in the Church, like divorce) and saying "yeah, you're right..." besides this, how do you divide the laws between spiritual and literal application?
"Sacrificing lambs just don't apply!" someone said. Why doesn't it? Is it really that hard to get a lamb and sacrifice it? Because of our culture? Liberal Christians have made the same argument concerning homosexaulity. "Our culture is changing, different time in history, it just doesn't apply anymore." (I'm not stating an opinion, just an example.) Well, if the Law of homosexuality still applies, but sacrificing doesn't, where is that distinction? (I'm aware of Romans 1, I HAVE read Scripture, but in this thread the Law seems to be confined to the OT in where to find it.)
What will this "return to the Law" look like, if the Church did this? How does that change worship? How does that change everyday life of the Christian?
But, how does that change the Law? And the weight thereof (which was lifted concerning the adulterous woman) And I'm sure PLENTY of Christians, including scholars who have not only read and studied this in the limited English but the original languages and cultures as well, also believe it's a "get out of hell" ticket. That's kinda what it is, cause you have "no chance in hell" of avoiding it otherwise by following the Law.
I have been guilty of this and I do try to avoid such, but it is spiritually childish to accuse another Christian of not being learned or taking their faith seriously because they disagree with you. And yet no one on here proclaiming a return to the Law has actually LAID OUT what that would look like and HOW Christians should go about doing this.
Unless it simply means "Agree with me."
Well, let's just go ahead and judge the intentions and hearts of people because they disagree with us! People we never even met personally! Forget about that whole "man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart" law in the OT somewhere...
I sympathize with frustration due to complacency and apathy, but you know, someone CAN believe in a separation between the OT and the NT and STILL practice their faith and grow in sanctification. Millions do this every day. Some persecuted Christians do this WITHOUT A BIBLE... you know, cause the ones they had were burned, if they owned one to begin with.
I'll pose the question I already have, I think twice now on this thread:
"Return to the Law" means WHAT? "Return" would indicate a change should take place in the Church - what is that change? Besides "obeying the Law," (plenty of laws and guides for Christians in the NT, yet funny there's no call to return to any of these that broken all the time in the Church, like divorce) and saying "yeah, you're right..." besides this, how do you divide the laws between spiritual and literal application?
"Sacrificing lambs just don't apply!" someone said. Why doesn't it? Is it really that hard to get a lamb and sacrifice it? Because of our culture? Liberal Christians have made the same argument concerning homosexaulity. "Our culture is changing, different time in history, it just doesn't apply anymore." (I'm not stating an opinion, just an example.) Well, if the Law of homosexuality still applies, but sacrificing doesn't, where is that distinction? (I'm aware of Romans 1, I HAVE read Scripture, but in this thread the Law seems to be confined to the OT in where to find it.)
What will this "return to the Law" look like, if the Church did this? How does that change worship? How does that change everyday life of the Christian?
K
Nobody is saying the words have the same meaning.
However the Mosaic laws are part of the Old Covenant that was made at Mount Sinai, which is called the bond woman.
The reason Apostle Paul calls this covenant the bondwoman is because the laws did not set people free, they instead held people under ordinances for their sins and therefore brought death because the flesh is to weak to keep the laws.
The new covenant that we are under is called the free woman, because the Lord brought a better way to live under grace by faith in Him and walking in love. Trying to separate the Mosaic laws out of the old covenant completely contradicts the many places the NT calls those laws being under bondage.
The reason the 10 Commandments are still transferred over into the NT is because they are not only called written ordinances in the Mosaic laws but they are also called the moral laws of God. Jews separate the main 10 from the rest just as the bible does from the old to the new.
Again as another asked if the contents as you say have not been replaced and believers are still held to do them, then do you still do the cleansing rituals, sacrifice animals, and all the other laws ???
If not why and yes I know some where fulfilled by the Lord on the cross, and I have heard the faulty argument that the temple no longer exists so please do not use that ???
Because the Jews are planning on rebuilding the temple and when this gets done as scripture says it will, are you going to override the Lords sacrifice to return to sacrificing animals ? Why or why not ???
The bondwoman has no inheritance with the free woman, meaning the law has no place in a believers life under grace for we are free from the law !!!
However the Mosaic laws are part of the Old Covenant that was made at Mount Sinai, which is called the bond woman.
The reason Apostle Paul calls this covenant the bondwoman is because the laws did not set people free, they instead held people under ordinances for their sins and therefore brought death because the flesh is to weak to keep the laws.
The new covenant that we are under is called the free woman, because the Lord brought a better way to live under grace by faith in Him and walking in love. Trying to separate the Mosaic laws out of the old covenant completely contradicts the many places the NT calls those laws being under bondage.
The reason the 10 Commandments are still transferred over into the NT is because they are not only called written ordinances in the Mosaic laws but they are also called the moral laws of God. Jews separate the main 10 from the rest just as the bible does from the old to the new.
Again as another asked if the contents as you say have not been replaced and believers are still held to do them, then do you still do the cleansing rituals, sacrifice animals, and all the other laws ???
If not why and yes I know some where fulfilled by the Lord on the cross, and I have heard the faulty argument that the temple no longer exists so please do not use that ???
Because the Jews are planning on rebuilding the temple and when this gets done as scripture says it will, are you going to override the Lords sacrifice to return to sacrificing animals ? Why or why not ???
The bondwoman has no inheritance with the free woman, meaning the law has no place in a believers life under grace for we are free from the law !!!