The Law Debacle Resolved

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Aug 15, 2009
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I have heard both sides in this thread, & I can say that there may not necessarily be a "right" side in it.

Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I suppose the question is which side has the most fruit?..... or any fruit? I wonder if that will be the next subject that will be debated on?

The scripture above is the spiritual statement.....and now one from the world that compliments it..... "It takes two to tango".

If both sides enjoy the debating for their "sides", then there's no "right" side. You see, it's not just about right doctrine..... it's about right attitudes, too.
:)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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Yes there are many that speak of eternal security. But there are an equal number that say we can turn away. You can't take one set and say it has standing over the other set, no matter which side you are on. And no scripture cannot contradict itself. That's why we have to carefully seek out the answer that makes BOTH sides true, instead of just choosing one at the expense of the other. And no it's not easy to do sometimes. But without an open mind, it's impossible.
Very true. A gospel of self and works is a false one. But so is one that eliminates contrary verses just because you can't make them all fit.

I find a gospel where the all fit. and are in agreement, so not sure what you mean here.


Yes there is twisting on both sides, but again that's because people focus on either/or as opposed to finding the middle ground. It's like one side saying the pendulum only swings left, the other side saying it only swings right, when in truth the pendulum settles in the middle.

There is no middle ground, there is one way or the other. Paul said there is on gospel. One word changed makes it a different gospel.

New age is not the way to go my friend.


Finding the middle ground can be very tough. People take the easy route and pick one or the other because they are unable or unwilling to wrap their brains around both sides.
It is impossible it is new age theology where everyone is right, we just have to find the middle ground.

That is not of God. The truth hurts, and it divides. it will nto make everyone happy
 

RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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Here is your middle ground my friend:

(with apologies for the wall of words)


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1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve

Deu 30:19 - "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.
3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.
4. We are not saved by acts of works.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP]“[/SUP]
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works. 13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[SUP]d[/SUP] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It’s a gift of God and not of works, let any man should boast.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation

James 2:
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP]d[/SUP] ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP]e[/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

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6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 6:37-39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise [never] cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

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7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve

Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

*

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselves away from salvation

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

2 Peter 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:22-23 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister
John 15:1 thru 6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Peter 1:5-9 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

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9. Disbelief is not an act of works

(See nos. 2/3/4 above).

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10. Salvation is not lost by works.

(See no. 6 above)

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11. Salvation is lost by disbelief

(See no. 8 above)
***



One guy once posted "what part of eternal life don't people get?". It's really the same part that people don't get about "who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and have fallen away".

This is the part that so many don't get: Both of these statements are GOD'S ETERNAL WORD and as such BOTH OF THESE STATEMENTS MUST BE TRUE.

So, stop using one to prove the other a lie (because it's not, lest you call God a liar), and instead strive to understand how BOTH THESE STATEMENTS, SPOKEN BY GOD, CAN BE TRUE.

When you can understand how God can keep us eternally, and yet allow us the freedom to turn away, then you will understand the paradox of OSAS.

OSAS would have us choose which of the following statements is true and which statement is a lie -

John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The Holy Spirit, working with an open mind, will help us see how BOTH are true, even tho they seemingly contradict.

The operative part being, of course, with an open mind.
 
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crossnote

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Well go ask Apostle John about that because in 1 John chapters 2-4 he shows believers how they can know they have eternal life abiding in them (assurance).

He clearly shows it is in their actions as in how they walk and treat others !!!
tell me, HOW MUCH GOOD WORKS DO YOU NEED UNTIL YOU ARE ASSURED?
Why do so few of you always got to go resort to speaking on quantity when that has no bearing, it is about the quality of life we live not quantity.

Because each position in the body carries a different amount of responsibilities with them, therefore it would be unfitting to say a standard member of the congregation had to live up to doing the same amount that a preacher is required to show.

Preacher/Minister is a very time consuming role, which is one of the reasons the Word of God says not all should seek to hold this position; Because it requires a lot of attention toward others and importance on proper teaching !!!
What an eel. Again how much [quality, if that's your way of expressing it] good works must you do until you are assured you have eternal life?
I believe I have it right now on account of Christ and His righteousness.
Can you answer the question without a lot of slithering?
 

RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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Again how much [quality, if that's your way of expressing it] good works must you do until you are assured you have eternal life?
None. Works do not assure eternal life.

Works are EVIDENCE of eternal life.

No evidence, no life.

May your eyes be opened to the difference
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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tell me, HOW MUCH GOOD WORKS DO YOU NEED UNTIL YOU ARE ASSURED?
That was not a gospel, that was the covenant made with Abraham.

"Abrahamic covenant"
Galatians 3:8 KJV
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying , In thee shall all nations be blessed.

..NEXT
The point was that the Gospel was preached to Abraham which you denied.
You called it a Covenant, fine, Paul called it the Gospel. Likewise the Land Covenant was also Good News (Gospel) for Abraham. But go ahead do your mental gymnastics and worm out of it.


The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward, for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever. I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted. Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you." So Abram moved his tent and came and settled by the oaks of Mamre, which are at Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.
(Gen 13:14-18)
 

crossnote

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I've found that most debates like this are caused by an extreme case of tunnel vision, brought on by the inability (unwillingness?) to find the common ground between seemingly conflicting verses, and a resultant over-focusing on one verse at the expense of others.


View attachment 137416
Sounds Hegelian to me. We are to find the Truth wherever it may lie between us or outside us.
 

crossnote

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You mean like what we just went through a little bit ago of using scripture to try and make Lord Jesus teachings and commands only for Jews when scripture says no such thing ???
Acts 15.......
 

crossnote

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The number is not important. Its the way of life to do good.
Ok, how much of the 'good way' must you walk in b4 you are assured of eternal life?
 

RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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Had to look up Hegelian:

Hegelianism is the philosophy of G. W. F. Hegel which can be summed up by the dictum that "the rational alone is real", which means that all reality is capable of being expressed in rational categories

Soooo? Would you not prefer a rational answer to this issue, as opposed to the irrational ones that fill this thread?
 

crossnote

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If you put more money into the bank than you take out, you're ok aren't you?
Problem is, the price of a soul can't be bought.

because what profit will a person have if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life? (Mat 16:26)
 

crossnote

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None. Works do not assure eternal life.

Works are EVIDENCE of eternal life.

No evidence, no life.

May your eyes be opened to the difference
Kenneth seems to differ.
Ok, how much works must be 'evidenced' before there is (eternal) life?
 

crossnote

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Had to look up Hegelian:

Hegelianism is the philosophy of G. W. F. Hegel which can be summed up by the dictum that "the rational alone is real", which means that all reality is capable of being expressed in rational categories

Soooo? Would you not prefer a rational answer to this issue, as opposed to the irrational ones that fill this thread?
By Hegelian is meant, when there are two opposing views the 'truth' is somewhere in between. Yes it is rationalism over God's revelation. Selah
 

crossnote

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By Hegelian is meant, when there are two opposing views the 'truth' is somewhere in between. Yes it is rationalism over God's revelation. Selah
Thesis (one view) versus Antithesis (other view) results in Synthesis (in between view).
 

RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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For your steadfast resolve to avoid this

Closed mind.jpg

I have to award you this

fun-certficate-dancing.jpg
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Sorry bro, just funning with you. You haven't seen the common sense, you've outright poo-poo'ed rational argument; sarcasm and ridicule are all I have left ;) lol

Honestly for 99% of us here at CC it's a moot subject anyway, thank God.
 
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