The Opposite of Faith

[p_rehbein]

Let's look at Peter. According to his state of mind, it was not logical to try to walk on water. Yet he did have a great, yet weak, faith, and tried. But because of his double mind, he failed.

However, if his mind had been clear (single) and had seen Christ as the lord of creation, then it would have been perfectly logical for him to step out in faith and walk on water.

As I stated earlier, it seems to depend on one's definition of reason and logic. See, to me, this instance with Peter reads that because of his lack of faith, doubting Christ, he began to sink in the sea. Not because he lacked reason or logic. But, that may just be me.



[h=1]Matthew
14:28[/h]
28.) And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29.) And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30.) But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31.) And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

See, what Jesus did not say was: O thou of little reason and logic.........

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe it depends on what one's definition of logic and reason are? But, I have to say that IMHO, "logic" and "reason" are of man's understanding, and we are told to not rely on our understanding. Just saying

As for "faith:"

[h=1]Hebrews
11:1[/h]
1.) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


See, to me, it would not be "logical" or "reasonable" to believe in something/someone we can not see/confirm the existence of, which is why "faith" is necessary for Grace to be imparted unto us.

(just my thoughts/not intended to be Biblical Doctrine)

But faith based on something not seen (in spirit) is fake. In other words, 'faith' based on just the imagination is not faith. Faith is based on something seen in the spirit that has been delineated by GOD's words. Therefore, if we see something and believe it, it is logical to put our confidence in it. Logic has nothing to do with faith, but it is used by faith.

 

[p_rehbein]

But faith based on something not seen (in spirit) is fake. In other words, 'faith' based on just the imagination is not faith. Faith is based on something seen in the spirit that has been delineated by GOD's words. Therefore, if we see something and believe it, it is logical to put our confidence in it. Logic has nothing to do with faith, but it is used by faith.

Sorry, I just don't understand this statement......it does not agree with Hebrews 11:1 in my opinion.....again, sorry......

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, I just don't understand this statement......it does not agree with Hebrews 11:1 in my opinion.....again, sorry......

Hebrews 11:1 means not seen with the eyes. Faith is based on spiritual things seen with the heart. Faith based on things not seen with the heart, but just with the imagination, is fake.

​Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1​

 

[p_rehbein]

Hebrews 11:1 means not seen with the eyes. Faith is based on spiritual things seen with the heart. Faith based on things not seen with the heart, but just with the imagination, is fake.

​Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1​

I understand what the Scripture means, what I don't understand is how man's logic or reasoning plays a part in this. The Scripture itself argues against reason and logic playing a part in faith. What is "spiritual" can not be seen, it can only be experienced/felt......as with the wind.......what CAN BE SEEN is the EVIDENCE of faith. The "fruit" of one's faith.

(caps used for emphasis, not yelling....... )

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I understand what the Scripture means, what I don't understand is how man's logic or reasoning plays a part in this. The Scripture itself argues against reason and logic playing a part in faith. What is "spiritual" can not be seen, it can only be experienced/felt......as with the wind.......what CAN BE SEEN is the EVIDENCE of faith. The "fruit" of one's faith.

(caps used for emphasis, not yelling....... )

Faith is the evidence of things seen/heard in the heart through the spirit. We use our minds (logic/reason) to evaluate what we see/hear with scripture. If its witness agrees with scripture, then we can have confidence (faith) that it is the word of GOD, and act accordingly.

 

[p_rehbein]

Sorry........we are on two different wave lengths I suppose. In my opinion, if the reason and logic of man could lead man to believing in/having faith in Christ, then all mankind would be disciples of Christ. No other religion would ever have existed.

Again, in my opinion, reason and logic are the enemies of faith. Reason and logic are earthly/physical things. They are not Spiritual. The heart itself rarely uses reason or logic.......all one has to do is look around at folks and who they fall in love with.... Matters of the heart are rarely reasonable or logical......but, that's just me I suppose....



Anyway, God bless you and yours.........

 

[PeterJens]

Nuance

Part of critical thinking is questioning assumptions, ideas, propositions. Some would call this doubt but I would call it learning.

Faith is often used in terms of trust, you trust God will answer or will do something.
Doubt is then belief God will do nothing, things will continue as you expect.

Some use the term faith as the opposite of not believing in anything. This is the concept where unbelief is actually a belief in naturalism, what we experience defines everything of value and is reality. It appears modern in atheism but hedonists have been doing this since human culture has existed.

We all live by faith, a model of the world in our minds that we hope matches up to the real world so we can choose actions appropriately.

Now the demons believe in God, but they know God does not have a good intention about their future.

We are called to fear God, because that is the beginning of wisdom, therefore cannot be the opposite of faith.

I think the opposite of faith is hatred, the will full rejection of anything that God represents and is, to become Gods enemy.

North Korea as a political entity have done this, and believe treating their people as sub-humans is acceptable.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry........we are on two different wave lengths I suppose. In my opinion, if the reason and logic of man could lead man to believing in/having faith in Christ, then all mankind would be disciples of Christ. No other religion would ever have existed.

Again, in my opinion, reason and logic are the enemies of faith. Reason and logic are earthly/physical things. They are not Spiritual. The heart itself rarely uses reason or logic.......all one has to do is look around at folks and who they fall in love with.... Matters of the heart are rarely reasonable or logical......but, that's just me I suppose....



Anyway, God bless you and yours.........

It's those who rely solely on logic and reason who are lost. Yet the existence of faith doesn't preclude logic and reason.

Matters of the heart aren't reasonable or logical to the carnal mind, but they are very reasonable or logical to the spiritual mind.

 

[PeterJens]

Answer - God hater.

There are people who clothe their hatred in philosophy, but when you push this away, the idea of being judged for their behaviour is thought of a being evil.

But to hold this position you deny morality and personal guilt, and rebel against the authority to say you are wrong.
A work colleague of mine kept on saying, do not judge me, for his wanton lust of those he saw around him. He was 100% wrong but in his mind he was just responding to his desire, rather than accepting limitations and respect for others, he was claiming he could do whatever he liked. That is hating God.

A "christian" on cc claimed he could feel anger towards God for all the things he did not get, and still claim to follow Jesus.

Without being born again, peoples hearts always are in emnity against the Lord and all He stands for.

 

[ukok102nak]

1 Corinthians: 2. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

God bless us all always


:ty:

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: by the way did anyone here heard about somekind of story that tells
something about a man who made himself
a living prison cell of those evil spirits . ...

and again willing to be in hell for his loveones and his friends
and all the people who are being kind and loving him were not save
because the evil one imprisoned their soul and they did not pass the ordeal and
for the evil one tortured their soul from the the darkness they loss their soul
unto the darkness the unimaginable realm of the unknown
dontknow: what's in there and what it will be no idea at all
so please dont ask anyone of us )
and the only way is to go to the darkness itself in order to save them . ...

:rofl: except him the taranta (d0)
:yawn: as someone before asking this to us that
`` IF THE TIME WOULD COME GOD SHALL TAKE YOU ALL TO HEAVEN
AND SOME WILL BE PUT IN EVERLASTING AGONY IN HELL ,
WHAT SHALL REMAIN IN TOTAL DARKNESS FOR EVERYONE KNOWS THAT
BEFORE THE BEGINNING``
:read:
Genesis: 1. 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
~:» BEFORE THE LIGHT
DARKNESS AND WATERS ARE EXISTING ‹:~

: : if anyone is interested :happy:
:scarf: anyone is welcome to tell something about what they know from what
the story tells about us

:ty:


God bless us all always

 

[JessP]

Is it possible to believe something without faith ? I would argue yes. For example to the best of my knowledge If i jump up I will also go back down. I know this because of testing it over and over again with the same results.

How are we defining faith ? - I always assumed it was to claim to know something without evidence? Please correct me if this is too simplistic or wrong.

 

[crossnote]

Sorry........we are on two different wave lengths I suppose. In my opinion, if the reason and logic of man could lead man to believing in/having faith in Christ, then all mankind would be disciples of Christ. No other religion would ever have existed.

Again, in my opinion, reason and logic are the enemies of faith. Reason and logic are earthly/physical things. They are not Spiritual. The heart itself rarely uses reason or logic.......all one has to do is look around at folks and who they fall in love with.... Matters of the heart are rarely reasonable or logical......but, that's just me I suppose....



Anyway, God bless you and yours.........

Perhaps reason and logic are to be servants of God's revelation, not enemies.
They only become enemies when they cease to be servants and try to take the supremacy.

 

[oldthennew]

Faith sustains us through our fears, it is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence
of things not seen'.

the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, there was a 'Power unseen', they marched around
the city for 7days, but the event was coupled with OBEDIENCE and FAITH - if these were absent,
the walls would have stood firm...

as humans, FEAR is a very relevant part of our make-up, it has been placed within us for our survival
in this most wicked world...without a healthy fear of what man and nature can do to us we step into the
'thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God' - we can't play the fool and at the same time depend on FAITH,
because without exercising our sense of DISCERNMENT we become fools and take the risk cutting our own
throats....





yes, the scripture tells that 'perfect LOVE casts out all fear' but, it shouldn't cast out a sound mind.....

 

[crossnote]

Is it possible to believe something without faith ? I would argue yes. For example to the best of my knowledge If i jump up I will also go back down. I know this because of testing it over and over again with the same results.

How are we defining faith ? - I always assumed it was to claim to know something without evidence? Please correct me if this is too simplistic or wrong.

The Christian faith is NOT without evidence, yet at times we may be called to trust God against all circumstances.

 

[ukok102nak]

Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

:smoke: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
:happy: and we pertaining unto our lord god the only begotten son jesus christ

: : but before the beginning is another thing for only unto
our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
and to our lord jesus christ who is our saviour
when the timr comes . ...

`∞` for those who is
set up from evelasting are up to this understanding . ...
* and to those who were beyond the darkness before light was made . ...

:rofl: sounds weird but let us continue
by asking
:now: before heavens and earth were created where we could find
our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
as it is written . ...

:yawn: so what's in there from everlasting
as it is written . ...

taranta (d0): imagined there were heavens and earth but without light . ...
or it is really a physical earth before
for as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 1. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
~:»THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID . ...
AS IT LOOKS MORE SPIRITUAL AS WHAT THOSE WHO CLAIMED IT IS A PHYSICAL EARTH . ....
REMEMBER HOW
OUR LORD GOD THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS
CHRIST TOLD TO HIS DISCIPLES
:read:
Luke: 24. 36. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
~:›PERHAPS EVERYONE OF YOU MY BRETHRENS
MY BROTHERS MY SISTERS ALREADY KNOWS THIS VERSE AND EVERYONE OF YOU KNOWS NOW
WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO SAY . ...
THAT FROM EVERLASTING
ARE NOT BEEN CREATED BUT ALSO A CREATOR .......

:ty:


God bless us all always

 

[crossnote]

Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

:smoke: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
:happy: and we pertaining unto our lord god the only begotten son jesus christ

: : but before the beginning is another thing for only unto
our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
and to our lord jesus christ who is our saviour
when the timr comes . ...

`∞` for those who is
set up from evelasting are up to this understanding . ...
* and to those who were beyond the darkness before light was made . ...

:rofl: sounds weird but let us continue
by asking
:now: before heavens and earth were created where we could find
our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
as it is written . ...

:yawn: so what's in there from everlasting
as it is written . ...

taranta (d0): imagined there were heavens and earth but without light . ...
or it is really a physical earth before
for as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 1. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
~:»THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID . ...
AS IT LOOKS MORE SPIRITUAL AS WHAT THOSE WHO CLAIMED IT IS A PHYSICAL EARTH . ....
REMEMBER HOW
OUR LORD GOD THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS
CHRIST TOLD TO HIS DISCIPLES
:read:
Luke: 24. 36. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
~:›PERHAPS EVERYONE OF YOU MY BRETHRENS
MY BROTHERS MY SISTERS ALREADY KNOWS THIS VERSE AND EVERYONE OF YOU KNOWS NOW
WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO SAY . ...
THAT FROM EVERLASTING
ARE NOT BEEN CREATED BUT ALSO A CREATOR .......

:ty:


God bless us all always

UKOK, I, on behalf of others here, proudly honor you with the "End a Thread Award" for sucessfully ending more threads than you begin

 

[ukok102nak]

UKOK, I, on behalf of others here, proudly honor you with the "End a Thread Award" for sucessfully ending more threads than you begin

:smoke: actually my brethren my brother cross
``THE END IS ONLY THE BEGINNING . ...``

:rofl: and no reward please . ...
just stay on the line or shall we say
stay on the line of truth and above all from
which (what) is written

:ty:


God bless us all always

 

[seed_time_harvest]

1 Corinthians: 2. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

God bless us all always


:ty:

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