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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#21
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
LOL so you have to make a new Heaven to fit in with your ideas?. The idea that ANYONE in Heaven apart from Jesus Christ can hear millions of prayers at the same time is blasphemy. Even the 24 angelic elders appointed by God could only channel prayers through to God.

And the New Testament knows absolutely nothing about such ideas. They are heresy, the invention of men. Where does it say that God willed anything of the kind? It is the invention of people long long after the time of the Apostles who had strayed from the truth.
 

Cindy12

Senior Member
Jan 5, 2015
243
11
18
#22
Would you say though that anyone who could field thousands of prayers simultaneously must have some God-like qualities?

Suppose 10,000 Catholics at any one time were praying to Mary, wouldn't that be a Herculean feat to hear and answer all those prayers at the same time?

Jesus, being Divine as well as man, no problem...but Mary???
No, I would not say that at all. I mean, we all pray "for" others. I pray for my children, my parents, (and I can bet you millions of people in our world pray for "their children" -- so how is that any different than someone praying for Mary? I don't pray for Mary any longer since I joined the Christian church, but I still pray for my parents and children and husband daily. Many do. I just don't see that as being much different. We prayed FOR Mary when we prayed, not TO Mary. (speaking for myself, maybe others did differently) Big difference. I never saw her as God, close to God, or anything like God. Not even for a second. I definitely agree that we should not pray "to" anyone other than our Lord God Almighty ... but we can all pray for others.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#23
No, I would not say that at all. I mean, we all pray "for" others. I pray for my children, my parents, (and I can bet you millions of people in our world pray for "their children" -- so how is that any different than someone praying for Mary? I don't pray for Mary any longer since I joined the Christian church, but I still pray for my parents and children and husband daily. Many do. I just don't see that as being much different. We prayed FOR Mary when we prayed, not TO Mary. (speaking for myself, maybe others did differently) Big difference. I never saw her as God, close to God, or anything like God. Not even for a second. I definitely agree that we should not pray "to" anyone other than our Lord God Almighty ... but we can all pray for others.
Roman Catholics claim to pray THROUGH Mary. That means praying to her so that she will pass it on.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#24
No, I would not say that at all. I mean, we all pray "for" others. I pray for my children, my parents, (and I can bet you millions of people in our world pray for "their children" -- so how is that any different than someone praying for Mary? I don't pray for Mary any longer since I joined the Christian church, but I still pray for my parents and children and husband daily. Many do. I just don't see that as being much different. We prayed FOR Mary when we prayed, not TO Mary. (speaking for myself, maybe others did differently) Big difference. I never saw her as God, close to God, or anything like God. Not even for a second. I definitely agree that we should not pray "to" anyone other than our Lord God Almighty ... but we can all pray for others.
While Scripture attests to there being one intercessor between God and man, namely Jesus Christ, Roman Catholics believe that Mary intercedes for them on their behalf. Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father in heaven. Roman Catholicism instructs you to pray to Mary. Of course to believe that Mary can intercede on your behalf, the Roman Catholic church had to make up a bunch of other stuff about Mary, none of it supported by Scripture, such as her bodily assumption to heaven, something Roman Catholics are bound by faith to accept as true since it has been proclaimed an infallible dogma by the RCC. Both such dogmas concern Mary.

Why would you pray for Mary? Do you not believe she is saved? Do you think praying for dead people can save them? Do you think the Hail Mary is people praying for Mary, or to Mary? You seem quite confused on the issue.

Asking people who are alive to pray for you is one thing, wholly supported by Scripture. Praying to Jesus and God is wholly supported by Scripture. Praying to dead people is nowhere supported by Scripture. In fact, if you were to look into such things, having anything to do with the spirits of the dead is forbidden.
 
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epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
15
18
#25
I don't understand what the big fuss is. In my personal devotion life, praying to Mary or the saints is a very small part of it. IT IS NOT MANDATORY FOR CATHOLICS, IT IS DEVOTIONAL. I like to talk to Mary because it's a lot like talking to my mom, it's comforting and she answers my prayers. All Mary wants is to draw me closer to Jesus and how some people call this Mary worship is just bigotry and ignorance. Who knows Jesus better than His own mother??? As for saints, yes, I have 2 favorites, but its not worship. True worship is partaking of the Eucharist, just like in the Bible and just like the early church which is the same as it is today. Getting back to my favorite saints:

St. Francis of Assisi: come on, how can anybody not love St. Francis? Oh, he's dead some say. Really? Maybe they never read his fascinating story, how he was called directly by God to rebuild the church, his humbleness, his deep walk with God. His life in Christ was exemplary. It's not so much prayers to him, but the prayers he left for us:

Blessing
May the Lord bless you
and keep you;
may the Lord show his face to you
and have compassion on you!
May he turn his face to you
and give you peace!
Amen.

Prayer for Pets

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Heavenly Father, our human ties with our friends of other species is a wonderful and special gift from You. We now ask You to grant our special animal companions your Fatherly care and healing power to take away any suffering they have. Give us, their human friends, new understanding of our responsibilities to these creatures of yours.
They have trust in us as we have trust in You; We are on this earth together to give one another friendship, affection, and caring. Take our heartfelt prayers and fill Your ill or suffering animals with healing Light and strength to overcome whatever weakness of body they have.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
( Here mention the names of the animals needing prayer )
Your goodness is turned upon every living thing and Your grace flows to all Your creatures. Grant to our special animal companions long and healthy lives. Give them good relationships with and if You see fit to take them from us, help us to understand that they are not gone from us, but only drawing closer to You. Grant our petitions through the intercession of good St. Francis of Assisi, who honored You through all Your creatures.

Is the sovereignty of God acknowledged?
Prayers to saints that compete with or supplant prayers directly to God is a Protestant myth.


My second favorite saint is St. Dymphna (demp-na). She is the patroness of mental/psychiatric disorders. In a nutshell, her Catholic mother died and her pagan father, a pagan chief, wanted to marry her. Incest was acceptable in 7th century pagan Ireland. She ran away and he found her and cut off her head. Many healings occur at her burial site: epilepsy, depression, demon possession, etc. A more complete story is here: A Brief Story of St. Dymphna,
Patron of Victims of Nervous Disorders*


Good Saint Dymphna, great wonder-worker in every affliction of mind and body, I humbly implore your powerful intercession with Jesus, the Health of the Sick, in my present need. (Mention it.) Saint Dymphna, martyr of purity, patroness of those who suffer with nervous and mental afflictions, beloved child of Jesus and Mary, pray to Them for me and obtain my request.

A minority of Christians (<25%) don't accept the doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints. Generally, they leave Catholics alone. An even smaller minority make a big fuss about nothing. Here is one more prayer to a saint...an angel actually:

PrayerTo Saint Michael
Holy Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him,we humbly pray; and do Thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
There is nothing wrong with this one either.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#26
I don't understand what the big fuss is.
Of course not. The fact that Jesus intructs us to do one thing while Roman Catholicism teaches something completely different does not faze most Roman Catholics. They would rather follow the traditions of man than the teachings of Christ. The fact that Scripture plainly teaches one thing while Roman Catholicism promotes another is of little concern to Roman Catholics.

IT IS NOT MANDATORY FOR CATHOLICS
It is mandatory for Roman Catholics to accept the infallible dogmas, both concerning Mary.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#27
Of course not. The fact that Jesus intructs us to do one thing while Roman Catholicism teaches something completely different does not faze most Roman Catholics. They would rather follow the traditions of man than the teachings of Christ. The fact that Scripture plainly teaches one thing while Roman Catholicism promotes another is of little concern to Roman Catholics. It is mandatory for Roman Catholics to accept the infallible dogmas, both concerning Mary.
Yeah, this is what happens when they believe that their leader is able to proclaim new revelations and that what he says is equal to or above the written word, which can't be verified through scripture.

 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#28
Yeah, this is what happens when they believe that their leader is able to proclaim new revelations and that what he says is equal to or above the written word, which can't be verified through scripture.
Here is an interesting page on so-called papal infallibility :)

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1521
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
15
18
#29
Wow, 3 ignorees in a row.

image.jpg
or would that be "Ignoralites"?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#30
Wow, 3 ignorees in a row.
Roman Catholics have a problem with people who present the Truth of Scripture to them. I feel compassion for how difficult it is for them to give up the lies they have been taught, because I once walked in their shoes. However many people they put on ignore, ignoring the Truth is not the answer. I trust God will continue to pursue them, regardless of how many times they turn away, no matter how many times they ignore the Truth when it is presented to them, and no matter how many people they ignore as we implore them to 'Come out of her, my people.'
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#31
There are billions of web sites attacking the Church one way or another. Guess how many Catholic sites misrepresent or lie about non-Catholic Christians? None. "0" ziltch.
So a BILLION sites are wrong? ALL OF THEM WRONG? Is that what you're saying?

That's beyond funny; its certifiable. No worries. Carry on.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#32
So a BILLION sites are wrong? ALL OF THEM WRONG? Is that what you're saying?

That's beyond funny; its certifiable. No worries. Carry on.
And then they cry about being called on their lies.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,067
26,171
113
#33
Question: How long would it take to count to a billion?

The Answer: It would depend on how fast you counted.

Let's suppose, for the sake of the argument, that you could count one number every second on average. (Since most numbers in that range are something like "five hundred million, seventeen thousand, two hundred and fifty," this is being very optimistic.) In that case, it would take you a billion seconds.

Dividing that by 60 (and leaving the remainder in second form), we find that it would take 16,666,666 minutes and 40 seconds. Dividing the minutes by 60, we find it would take 277,777 hours, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds. Dividing the hours by 24, we get a new total of 11,574 days, 1 hour, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds. Finally, dividing by 365.25 (the extra quarter-day is for leap years), we end up with an approximate total of 31 years, 251 days, 7 hours, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds.

In short, if you want to count to a billion, you'd better start now.
—The Editors http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/counting-billion.html

See you in thirty one years, two hundred and fifty one days!

Maybe we should just round it off to thirty two years ;)


 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#34
I don't understand what the big fuss is. In my personal devotion life, praying to Mary or the saints is a very small part of it. IT IS NOT MANDATORY FOR CATHOLICS, IT IS DEVOTIONAL.
So you pray to the spirits of the dead? Enough said.


I like to talk to Mary because it's a lot like talking to my mom, it's comforting and she answers my prayers.
Pure sentimental tosh.

All Mary wants
Mary wants nothing. She is not even aware of you

is to draw me closer to Jesus and how some people call this Mary worship is just bigotry and ignorance. Who knows Jesus better than His own mother???
Mary never understood Jesus. She deserted Him in Jerusalem because she did not know the truth about Him. She tried to stop Him carrying on His ministry. And if you really think that she now understands the full mysteries of God you must be joking.



As for saints, yes, I have 2 favorites, but its not worship.
If you bow down to them its worship.

True worship is partaking of the Eucharist,
Ah yes cannibalism!!!
.
Getting back to my favorite saints:

St. Francis of Assisi: come on, how can anybody not love St. Francis? Oh, he's dead some say. Really? Maybe they never read his fascinating story,
In other words you dream it lol and make it up

My second favorite saint is St. Dymphna (demp-na). She is the patroness of mental/psychiatric disorders.
Lol well at least you are now admitting it openly. Try a psychiatrist it will do you more good.
 
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B

Biblelogic01

Guest
#35
I don't understand what the big fuss is. In my personal devotion life, praying to Mary or the saints is a very small part of it. IT IS NOT MANDATORY FOR CATHOLICS, IT IS DEVOTIONAL. I like to talk to Mary because it's a lot like talking to my mom, it's comforting and she answers my prayers. All Mary wants is to draw me closer to Jesus and how some people call this Mary worship is just bigotry and ignorance. Who knows Jesus better than His own mother??? As for saints, yes, I have 2 favorites, but its not worship. True worship is partaking of the Eucharist, just like in the Bible and just like the early church which is the same as it is today. Getting back to my favorite saints:

St. Francis of Assisi: come on, how can anybody not love St. Francis? Oh, he's dead some say. Really? Maybe they never read his fascinating story, how he was called directly by God to rebuild the church, his humbleness, his deep walk with God. His life in Christ was exemplary. It's not so much prayers to him, but the prayers he left for us:

Blessing
May the Lord bless you
and keep you;
may the Lord show his face to you
and have compassion on you!
May he turn his face to you
and give you peace!
Amen.

Prayer for Pets

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Heavenly Father, our human ties with our friends of other species is a wonderful and special gift from You. We now ask You to grant our special animal companions your Fatherly care and healing power to take away any suffering they have. Give us, their human friends, new understanding of our responsibilities to these creatures of yours.
They have trust in us as we have trust in You; We are on this earth together to give one another friendship, affection, and caring. Take our heartfelt prayers and fill Your ill or suffering animals with healing Light and strength to overcome whatever weakness of body they have.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
( Here mention the names of the animals needing prayer )
Your goodness is turned upon every living thing and Your grace flows to all Your creatures. Grant to our special animal companions long and healthy lives. Give them good relationships with and if You see fit to take them from us, help us to understand that they are not gone from us, but only drawing closer to You. Grant our petitions through the intercession of good St. Francis of Assisi, who honored You through all Your creatures.

Is the sovereignty of God acknowledged?
Prayers to saints that compete with or supplant prayers directly to God is a Protestant myth.


My second favorite saint is St. Dymphna (demp-na). She is the patroness of mental/psychiatric disorders. In a nutshell, her Catholic mother died and her pagan father, a pagan chief, wanted to marry her. Incest was acceptable in 7th century pagan Ireland. She ran away and he found her and cut off her head. Many healings occur at her burial site: epilepsy, depression, demon possession, etc. A more complete story is here: A Brief Story of St. Dymphna,
Patron of Victims of Nervous Disorders*


Good Saint Dymphna, great wonder-worker in every affliction of mind and body, I humbly implore your powerful intercession with Jesus, the Health of the Sick, in my present need. (Mention it.) Saint Dymphna, martyr of purity, patroness of those who suffer with nervous and mental afflictions, beloved child of Jesus and Mary, pray to Them for me and obtain my request.

A minority of Christians (<25%) don't accept the doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints. Generally, they leave Catholics alone. An even smaller minority make a big fuss about nothing. Here is one more prayer to a saint...an angel actually:

PrayerTo Saint Michael
Holy Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him,we humbly pray; and do Thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
There is nothing wrong with this one either.
You know in the bible it states to not talk to the dead.
Mary being human, or any of the saints being human are dead.
Consulting dead spirits is against the bible.
 

Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
479
8
0
#36
Tell us epostle, where in the Scriptures did God ever say that those who are in Heaven has Omnipresence? You do know epostle only God has Omnipresence. Not Mary, not the Angles, not anyone at all!

To claim all those in Heaven has Omnipresence does tell us you either have never read the Scriptures or you Hate God so much you want to make everybody a God!

You have finally shown your true colors epostle. You are not a Christian and you never have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

All you are epostle is a false prophet, a wolf in sheep clothing, teaching the commandments of men as Doctrines from God.

Its amazing how corrupted you are into believing only you have the Truth and not God!

No wonder you are a Catholic.

Cindy12, praying to Mary is a Mortal sin that will destroy your Soul in the Lake of Fire!

Praying the Hail Mary IS a Mortal sin!

Praying the Rosary IS a Mortal sin!

Bowing to a statue of Mary IS a Mortal sin!

Exodus 20:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Saying the Hail Mary IS Idolatry!
Saying the Rosary IS Idolatry!
Asking Mary for anything IS Idolatry!

All those Catholics who commit Idolatry will never enter into Heaven! The Lake of Fire is where God will put them.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#37
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
read more here Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
No, a good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife can be found in the Scriptures and nowhere do we see in Scripture does the glorified state of man take on deity. Your approach to petitioning Mary is a shot in the dark with NO SCRIPTURAL WARRANT.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#38
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
History and Church tradition does not trump Scripture
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#39
No, a good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife can be found in the Scriptures and nowhere do we see in Scripture does the glorified state of man take on deity. Your approach to petitioning Mary is a shot in the dark with NO SCRIPTURAL WARRANT.
Umm...in epostle's comment he specifically stated that the glorified saints in heaven do not have omniscience nor do they require it, since it is the power of God producing the miracle and not the saints themselves. Thus, your comment about taking on deity is invalid on its face. There are counter-arguments, but accusation of something that was just denied is not one of them.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#40
No, I would not say that at all. I mean, we all pray "for" others. I pray for my children, my parents, (and I can bet you millions of people in our world pray for "their children" -- so how is that any different than someone praying for Mary? I don't pray for Mary any longer since I joined the Christian church, but I still pray for my parents and children and husband daily. Many do. I just don't see that as being much different. We prayed FOR Mary when we prayed, not TO Mary. (speaking for myself, maybe others did differently) Big difference. I never saw her as God, close to God, or anything like God. Not even for a second. I definitely agree that we should not pray "to" anyone other than our Lord God Almighty ... but we can all pray for others.
I never meant praying FOR Mary, but was referring to the Catholic practice of praying TO Mary.