Who or what is the third horseman in Revelations?

[Blain]

Okay lots of good responses so far, so if say the white horse is the antichrist then there is an issue because the antichrist has not yet been revealed and the red horse is war and rumors of war right? the third is famine and the fourth is death I believe.
But other than the antichrist himself all these horsemen appear to have been around since before Jesus days, so other than the antichrist we could assume that this part of revelation is complete. But no one really knows who the antichrist is, we have ideas of who he is but he has not revealed himself and there certainly hasn't been a seven year peace treaty in which he would break yet. But as Valiant pointed out jesus spoke of these things to his generation and in the new testament after Pentecost they spoke often of always being ready always watching and spoke often of the end times as if it could happen in their life times.

so is this all something that was specifically meant for later generations and the apostles and fellow believers were wrong to be ready and to watch? Because if it is only to happen for this generation and the first seal hasn't even been opened then why were they preparing for this?

 

[Stonemason]

"Then the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

That scales mentioned symbolizes the precise weighing of food when there is a shortage. That this third seal rider is representing famine is further demonstrated by the saying "Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages," which demonstrates a little bit of food for a lot of money.

The third seal rider on the black horse represents famine.

Yes, well, that would suppose, then, when there is no shortage there is no scale, but there is.

 

[KJV1611]

Hi KJV1611,



You are correct regarding the definition of the word meaning unveiling or the uncovering of that which was previously veiled and what is being unveiled are the events of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments mentioned in the book of Revelation, with the grand finale being Christ's return to the earth to end the age as seen in Rev.19:11-21. Also, the horses in Isaiah do not represent the same horses of Revelation.

Sure the're the same horses. Jesus said every word is established at the mouth of two or three witnesses... the four horseman have to be mentioned more than once in the bible or God violated his own word.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, well, that would suppose, then, when there is no shortage there is no scale, but there is.

Not to mention the fact that those verses said nothing about a shortage of anything.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I actually prefer this view to the "other". I'm still not on this same page, but this is the correct understanding of the message's dual-nature. How can you disagree? It says, in this first paragraph, "..the time is near", and, "must soon come to pass". Near, like... 1900 years later? no. Soon, like, "when the hen of leeds says so"? no. It's a message for introspection, for evaluation and correction of peoples' hearts, minds and souls, not as a bunch of tarot cards symbols, which is so offensive.

Here are some scriptures regarding the day of the Lord and referring to it as being near:

"Isaiah 13:6-8 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp; every man’s heart will melt." Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.
Isaiah 13:9-13 See, the day of the Lord is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Joel 1:15 - Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Rev.1:1-3 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Now, I listed those scriptures because they contain two elements one, the reference to the day of the Lord and two, that each scripture states that it is near. Now, the day of the Lord was prophesied by the prophets of old, which is yet to take place. Yet, they also used the phrase "is near" or "is coming soon" which was prophesied hundreds of years before Christ came. This phrase does not have a date attached to it, but infers imminency, that is, it is on the horizon, looming, always about to happen, in the workings, etc. This carries the same understanding as when Christ said that believers should always be watching and ready because we don't know at what time our Lord will return, that is, his return is imminent.

Also regarding "Ahwatukees pushing everything into the end times," Ahwatukee is not pushing anything, but is merely repeating scripture. For Jesus himself that said that when you see these signs taking place that the generation that they begin to take place in would not pass away until all of these events had been fulfilled and therefore, you can't spread them out as taking place over a period of 2000 years. Furthermore, no one would even notice them! As I said, scripture states that these events will be so terrible that if the time had not be shortened no one would be left alive on the earth. You have to remember also that with Valiant, you are dealing with someone who has adopted Amillenniallism, which interprets most of the end-time events as already being fulfilled, which is false! Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Consequently, the church is still being built and all of the promises that were given to the church are to the entire church from beginning to end and not just to the first century church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not to mention the fact that those verses said nothing about a shortage of anything.

Here is the shortage KJV:

"Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[SUP]c[/SUP] of barley for a day’s wages,"

The above represents a little food for a lot of money, which would demonstrate shortage. If you have the Spirit, you should be able to discern the meaning of this.

 

[valiant]

Okay lots of good responses so far, so if say the white horse is the antichrist then there is an issue because the antichrist has not yet been revealed and the red horse is war and rumors of war right? the third is famine and the fourth is death I believe.
But other than the antichrist himself all these horsemen appear to have been around since before Jesus days, so other than the antichrist we could assume that this part of revelation is complete. But no one really knows who the antichrist is, we have ideas of who he is but he has not revealed himself and there certainly hasn't been a seven year peace treaty in which he would break yet. But as Valiant pointed out jesus spoke of these things to his generation and in the new testament after Pentecost they spoke often of always being ready always watching and spoke often of the end times as if it could happen in their life times.

so is this all something that was specifically meant for later generations and the apostles and fellow believers were wrong to be ready and to watch? Because if it is only to happen for this generation and the first seal hasn't even been opened then why were they preparing for this?

As John said there are many antichrists. The white horse has in mind those many antichrists starting with the false Messiahs and prophets in 1st century AD.

 

[eternallife7]

I think the white horse involves all these preachers in the world trying to teach us to live under both covenants. The two covenants are so different that it is impossible to live by both of them they are just that different. Hebrews 1:1-2 tells us that God is speaking to us through His Son and that he was only speaking to our fathers through the OT. However, it takes a totally repentant heart for God to reveal us this great truth I beleive. My advice is to camp out in the NT for a while until one sees this great truth.

 

[Stonemason]

Not to mention the fact that those verses said nothing about a shortage of anything.

Well 6 pounds of barley doesn't seem like much, but could just as easily refer to the depreciated value of money during periods of incredible inflation, as happened in Poland in the first half of the last century, literally a wheelbarrel of cash for a loaf of bread. In any event, someone is "judging this fair" and further "don't touch the other stuff". That sounds more like a court agreement to me.

Also, to another post, Isaiah 13 is about the prophecy against Babylon. All this, "against Babylon" happened, Babylon is gone. Now, I understand the potential for cyclical nature in prophecy, and I can rationalize it, but the rest, read the context here, the rest of the described situation is not occurring for someone to say it compares. You don't get to just pick and choose random segments and say "this is this, that is that". You need to take it all and then contrast. I'd be more inclined to the argument "America is a modern Sidon", than some argument another Nabopollassar or Nebuchadnezzar is walking the earth. It is not realistic.

 

[KJV1611]

The book of Revelation was given to John in symbols. No one can understand Revelation with out understanding biblical symbolism. You have to search the bible and find out what wheat symbolizes, you will find that wheat is people. A penny is a days work... In my opinion the days work Jesus did on the cross. Trust me those verses have nothing to do with a shortage of food, that's just completely ridiculous.

Revelation 6:6 KJV
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

 

[KJV1611]

Here is the shortage KJV:

"Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[SUP]c[/SUP] of barley for a day’s wages,"

The above represents a little food for a lot of money, which would demonstrate shortage. If you have the Spirit, you should be able to discern the meaning of this.

No that's not a shortage, that's a price... you added shortage.

 

[Magenta]

No that's not a shortage, that's a price... you added shortage.

Supply and demand determines price...

 

[Stonemason]

Supply and demand determines price...

As does... value of the currency.

 

[KJV1611]

I gotta go eat some turkey... Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Stonemason]

I gotta go eat some turkey... Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Magenta]

I gotta go eat some turkey... Happy Thanksgiving!

..
. .

Enjoy! Happy Thanksgiving all!

 

[Magenta]

As does... value of the currency.

What determines the value of currency?

 

[valiant]

Here are some scriptures regarding the day of the Lord and referring to it as being near:

"Isaiah 13:6-8 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp; every man’s heart will melt." Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

It is quite clearly stated that this refers to the downfall of Babylon, at a time when the Medes were involved. There is absolutely no reason for pushing it to the end of this age. The 'day of the LORD' merely referred to any time when Go vsited people in judgment. There are many days of the Lord.

Isaiah 13:9-13 See, the day of the Lord is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

As pointed out above this occurred in 6th century BC.

Joel 1:15 - Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

This referred to the plague of locusts outlined in chapter 2. It has nothing to do with the end times.

Rev.1:1-3 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Note that it says SOON take place. It commenced taking place in 1st century AD when the horsemen started to ride.

He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

yes the time is near. NOT 2000 years ahead.

Now, I listed those scriptures because they contain two elements one, the reference to the day of the Lord and two, that each scripture states that it is near.

And in each case the fulfilment occurred within 200 years.

Now, the day of the Lord was prophesied by the prophets of old, which is yet to take place.

Nonsense. Many days of the LORD HAVE taken place.

Yet, they also used the phrase "is near" or "is coming soon" which was prophesied hundreds of years before Christ came. This phrase does not have a date attached to it, but infers imminency, that is, it is on the horizon, looming, always about to happen, in the workings, etc

Actually it means that is is NEAR. Which means within a hundred years or so.

.

This carries the same understanding as when Christ said that believers should always be watching and ready because we don't know at what time our Lord will return, that is, his return is imminent

.

But His return was not said to be near.

Also regarding "Ahwatukees pushing everything into the end times," Ahwatukee is not pushing anything, but is merely repeating scripture.

Scripture NOWHERE refers these thing to the end times. Only the later part of Revelation has those times in mind.

For Jesus himself that said that when you see these signs taking place that the generation that they begin to take place in would not pass away until all of these events had been fulfilled and therefore, you can't spread them out as taking place over a period of 2000 years.

As usual you misstate what Scripture says. It is a tendency of premillennialists, because Scripture does not fit their ideas. When Jesus said 'this generation' He was referring as He always did when using this phrase to His own generation. The 'these things' to be fulfilled were the beginning of sorrows and the destruction of the Temple. Both occurred in that generation. They did not spread out over 2000 years.

As I said, scripture states that these events will be so terrible that if the time had not be shortened no one would be left alive on the earth.

LOL you treat Scripture as though it could be fitted into whatever you want. This is describing the great tribulation on the Jews which commenced in 70 AD and continued on through the centuries, It does NOT say that no one on earth would be left alive. It says that no flesh among the Jews would be left alive if the days had not been shortened. But for the sake of His elect they would be shortened

You have to remember also that with Valiant, you are dealing with someone who has adopted Amillenniallism, which interprets most of the end-time events as already being fulfilled, which is false!

Your usual lie. You do not even know what amillennialists teach. We certainly agree that many events have been fulfilled, but we also see others yet to be fulfilled. We take a balanced approach. But we certainly do not believe in a 1000 year earthly reign which ends with its king being a complete failure.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Consequently, the church is still being built and all of the promises that were given to the church are to the entire church from beginning to end and not just to the first century church.

Is that why you allocate them all to the end times? LOL If you did what you say honestly you would recognise that much of Revelation commenced its fulfilment in John's time. Then we would be able to agree with some of what you say.But the first century church was certainly very much in mind. It was TO THEM that the Apostles wrote.

 

[DP]

Matt 24:7-8
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV

Rev 6:5-6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
KJV



The idea of a measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny, is about the balances of commerce. Economics is going to be skewed, for that idea is about high cost just for a loaf of bread, i.e., hyper-inflation. That's the kind of state the world is in now, especially the once wealthy western nations.

Many businesses have been moving out of the West, and trade laws opened up (GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA), creating the ability to move manufacturing to poorer nations; this to try and drive the poorer economies up and bring western economies downward in order to balance the nations in prep for the coming one-world government (i.e., the kingdom beast of Rev.13:1-2). This has helped put many western nations in a state of hyper-inflation, their debt based currency systems being prepared to fall.

The U.S. debt-based dollar is a prime example, controlled by the private banking cartel called the Federal Reserve (a private banking institution run by international bankers with an appointed chairman; it is not a real part of the U.S. government at all. They control deflation and inflation of the U.S. dollar which creates depressions and recessions. Their system has moved the power of the dollar out of the people's hands and put it into their's.) The IMF (International Monetary Fund) and like internationalist banking cartels are used to filter our U.S. debt-based currency to poorer nations, without our vote, which is hyper-inflating our dollar making it worth less, and driving up prices of goods and labor.

The 4th Seal is also part of this movement aligned with what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:7-8:

Rev 6:7-8
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
KJV

Those 4 things that kill, the sword, hunger, death, and with beasts are metaphors for this world-wide working of the locusts for the end, stealing the wealth and power of God's people (see Book of Joel and 4 categories of the locust). It represents the four main categories of the beast's control over the earth through military ("sword"), commerce ("hunger"), religion ("death" - spiritual death through deception), and the political ("beasts").

The 5th Seal is about the events of Mark 13:9-13, the delivering up of some of Christ's elect to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit against them. This can be seen as partially having already begun especially in foreign nations with Christians being beheaded for their Faith on Jesus Christ. It will continue, especially into the a portion of the 6th Seal when the false messiah arrives and is setup in Jerusalem.

The white horse rider of the 1st Seal is the coming false messiah, but he doesn't appear until the 6th Seal:

Rev 6:13
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

That part of the 6th Seal is about the Rev.12:7-17 events when the war in Heaven between Michael and his angels vs. Satan and his angels casts Satan and his down to this earth. The idea of "untimely figs" is part of the parable of the fig tree, and is about the winter fig that grows in the winter but falls off in the spring. It's an early fig, and not the true summer fig. That is given as a metaphor for the coming false messiah and his idol worship event in metaphorical spring, prior to our Lord Jesus' coming at the metaphorical summer harvest.


These Seal events are the signs our Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. They are all to occur in the final generation that will see Jesus' second coming. That's the generation that is to see 'all these things' like He said.

 

[Stonemason]

What determines the value of currency?

The short answer is "supply and demand of the currency", but in this there are so many factors involved, it's impossible to point at one specific cause of the disparity. World economists work on this problem every day.