Two passages, Two translations...can you tell the difference?

[Blessed2Progress]

What do you see when comparing these two passages to one another in these two "Translations" ?

[h=1]Isaiah 14:12King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations![/h][h=1]Isaiah 14:12New International Version (NIV)
12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations![/h]
[h=1]Revelation 22:16King James Version (KJV)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.[/h][h=1]Revelation 22:16New International Version (NIV)
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David,and the bright Morning Star.”[/h]

 

[MYSAVIORJESUSCHRIST]

Hmmmm....

I think I see what you saw...wow

were you looking at morning star?

I have an idea what happened but I will see if someone else can dissect that...

 

[biblicalsandy]

Wonder how this is going to go? Seen this argument before..trying to connect Lucifer to Jesus with the morning star thing!

 

[biblicalsandy]

From Got Questions...

Question: "Why are both Jesus and Satan referred to as the morning star?"

Answer: The first reference to the morning star as an individual is in Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” It is clear from the rest of the passage that Isaiah is referring to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). So in this case, the morning star refers to Satan. In Revelation 22:16, Jesus unmistakably identifies Himself as the morning star. Why are both Jesus and Satan described as the “morning star”?

It is interesting to note that the concept of the “morning star” is not the only concept that is applied to both Jesus and Satan. In Revelation 5:5, Jesus is referred to as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In 1 Peter 5:8, Satan is compared to a lion, seeking someone to devour. The point is this, both Jesus and Satan, to a certain extent, have similarities to lions. Jesus is similar to a lion in that He is the King, He is royal and majestic. Satan is similar to a lion in that he seeks to devour other creatures. That is where the similarities between Jesus, Satan, and lions end, however. Jesus and Satan are like lions in very different ways.

The idea of a “bright morning star” is a star that outshines all the others. Satan, as perhaps the most beautiful creation of God, probably the most powerful of all the angels, was a bright morning star. Jesus, as God incarnate, the Lord of the universe, is THE bright and morning star. Jesus is the most holy and powerful “light” in all the universe. So, while both Jesus and Satan can be described as “bright morning stars,” in no sense is this equating Jesus and Satan. Satan is a created being. His light only exists to the extent that God created it. Jesus is the light of the world (John 9:5). Only Jesus’ light is self-existent. Satan may be a bright morning star, but he is only a poor imitation of the one true bright morning star, Jesus Christ, the light of the world.

 

[MYSAVIORJESUSCHRIST]

Making that connection is heretical at best.

If your trying to assume anything, think of it this way...satan used to be morning star (if the translations hold). he definitely isn't any more.

So you can't connect the two when satan no longer holds that position (if the translations hold).

The only way of knowing this is by comparing the texts in the original language...using English to English isn't gonna make for the greatest comparison...

...best to forget about this one...

 

[crossnote]

Judas Iscariot was a human being.
Apostle Paul was a human being.

Should we therefore say Paul was actually Judas Iscariot?

 

[ThomistColin]

The Morning Star:

Venus has long been called the morning star by the ancient Jews, Greeks, Persians, Sumerians, Babylonians, etc. By the ancient mariners and nomads, Venus is a despised and hated star, because "she" moves. When trying to find your bearings in the early twilight of morning, if you fix on Venus, you will be lead astray. It cannot be trusted or followed for it will make you lost as you believe you are found.

The Bright and Morning Star:

For a long time, the Sun was acknowledged as the greatest of stars by astrologers and ancient peoples. However, by the Jews it was viewed as evidence of the trustfulness of God, for the Sun always rose in the East and set in the West. The Sun allowed one to tell the hour of the day, or even the month and day from where it rose and set on the horizons.

Satan is like Venus, the morning star, a deceiver and trickster that can only lead to destruction and loss.

Jesus is compared to the Sun, because by Christ all things are known, all things are set, and is trustworthy and unchanging.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Despite the pop culture misconception Isaiah 14 isn't about Satan if that's what you're wondering. Verse 4 indicates the prophesy is addressed to the king of Babylon.

 

[Blessed2Progress]

Hmmmm....

I think I see what you saw...wow

were you looking at morning star?

I have an idea what happened but I will see if someone else can dissect that...

The translators removed "lucifer".
The morning star connection is there but only to add insult to injury....
KJV 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer
NIV 12 How you have fallen from heaven,morning star

Making that connection is heretical at best.

If your trying to assume anything, think of it this way...satan used to be morning star (if the translations hold). he definitely isn't any more.

So you can't connect the two when satan no longer holds that position (if the translations hold).

The only way of knowing this is by comparing the texts in the original language...using English to English isn't gonna make for the greatest comparison...

...best to forget about this one...

This is only one of many changes to scripture, if you examine them thoroughly i believe you will find the same. I thank GOD for your hand in fellowship and in TRUTH my brother. LORD Yeshua bless and keep you, peace be unto you.

2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 17:10-11King James Version (KJV)
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The translators removed "lucifer".
The morning star connection is there but only to add insult to injury....
KJV 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer
NIV 12 How you have fallen from heaven,morning star

Lucifer means morning star, lightbringer, dawnbringer, etc. They didn't take anything out. It's still in context and worded properly. The thing is the prophecy isn't about Satan like the pop culture thinks. It's about the king of Babylon, it says so in verse 4.

 

[Stonemason]

Despite the pop culture misconception Isaiah 14 isn't about Satan if that's what you're wondering. Verse 4 indicates the prophesy is addressed to the king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:16-17

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

I tend to agree. "Morning star" in this context is the king of Babylon. Although is it arguable that the spirit of "the accuser" worked in him. However, and this is important, there is inference that the Babylonian exile was divine retribution for decades of "Evil before God", by the kings of Judea and the people.

So, I can see both sides of the argument, but one is literal (man), but then, what is a literal interpretation of a prophetic statement? I think "Lucifer" (who wasn't in the Hebrew Tanakh by name, ever), is a reference to a person, and God allowed this to happen, but also "the accuser" was specifically mentioned in Job, a work older than Isaiah, so if God meant "Satan", and had set precedent for "Satan", He could have been specific if we were to understand "those 2 are the same being".

So I do not believe we're intended to consider them the same. I just do not. I know what Jesus said in Luke 10, and I also know that Jesus met Satan in Luke 4, he very well "could have seen him coming from heaven", and this is not without precedent, because as I mentioned in Job, Job 1 had Satan and God in heaven having a conversation, he apparently bounces back and forth. Really not trying to mess with anyone's outlook here, but, well, read it...

Job 1:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

So, God seemed surprised to see Satan, Satan was in heaven, they have a short conversation, and he doesn't say "well, I was in hell, where you put me".

I think there's alot of flagrant conflation going on and a lack of consideration for other scripture when you say, "Lucifer and Satan are the same being".

 

[Tintin]

Despite the pop culture misconception Isaiah 14 isn't about Satan if that's what you're wondering. Verse 4 indicates the prophesy is addressed to the king of Babylon.

That passage is addressed to both the king of Babylon and the spirit behind his thoughts, words and actions (Satan).

 

[GodIsSalvation]

That passage is addressed to both the king of Babylon and the spirit behind his thoughts, words and actions (Satan).

Show me or it's not real.

 

[Stonemason]

That passage is addressed to both the king of Babylon and the spirit behind his thoughts, words and actions (Satan).

Then Satan was working as God's agent, following God's commands, as Satan did in Job, because, as I said, the fall of Jerusalem to the Chaldeans, destruction of the first temple and subsequent exile were divine retribution.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Isaiah 14:16-17

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

I tend to agree. "Morning star" in this context is the king of Babylon. Although is it arguable that the spirit of "the accuser" worked in him. However, and this is important, there is inference that the Babylonian exile was divine retribution for decades of "Evil before God", by the kings of Judea and the people.

So, I can see both sides of the argument, but one is literal (man), but then, what is a literal interpretation of a prophetic statement? I think "Lucifer" (who wasn't in the Hebrew Tanakh by name, ever), is a reference to a person, and God allowed this to happen, but also "the accuser" was specifically mentioned in Job, a work older than Isaiah, so if God meant "Satan", and had set precedent for "Satan", He could have been specific if we were to understand "those 2 are the same being".

So I do not believe we're intended to consider them the same. I just do not. I know what Jesus said in Luke 10, and I also know that Jesus met Satan in Luke 4, he very well "could have seen him coming from heaven", and this is not without precedent, because as I mentioned in Job, Job 1 had Satan and God in heaven having a conversation, he apparently bounces back and forth. Really not trying to mess with anyone's outlook here, but, well, read it...

Job 1:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

So, God seemed surprised to see Satan, Satan was in heaven, they have a short conversation, and he doesn't say "well, I was in hell, where you put me".

I think there's alot of flagrant conflation going on and a lack of consideration for other scripture when you say, "Lucifer and Satan are the same being".

I agree Satan and Lucifer are not the same. Lucifer, morning star, dawnbringer, etc. is just a title and an adjective. I agree that when people try to conflate the king of Babylon in Isaiah and Satan that the whole Bible narrative becomes meaningless and out of sync. In fact the Bible says bluntly there's no light in Satan, so it's not possible for the dragon to be called Lucifer. Genesis says Satan is an animal, a dragon. Revelation 12 confirms it and even tells you that the dragon is called Satan and Devil. Notice the title of Lucifer is missing, it's because the Lucifer mythos is just that, it's a pop culture mythology that's not actually in the Bible.

 

[fredoheaven]

What do you see when comparing these two passages to one another in these two "Translations" ?

Isaiah 14:12King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:12New International Version (NIV)
12 How you have fallen from heaven,morning star, son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth,you who once laid low the nations!


Revelation 22:16King James Version (KJV)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:16New International Version (NIV)
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David,and the bright Morning Star.”

Hi,

It's either one translation is correct and the other is corrupt. I'll settled myself on the KJV.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Revelation 22:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Who are the morning stars? Angels like Lucifer
Who is that bright and morning star? Our Lord Jesus Christ

God cares,



God bless,

 

[Stonemason]

Hi,

It's either one translation is correct and the other is corrupt. I'll settled myself on the KJV.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Revelation 22:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Who are the morning stars? Angels like Lucifer
Who is that bright and morning star? Our Lord Jesus Christ

God cares,



God bless,

Then you must mean, "men like Lucifer", not angels, because as I indicated, even in KJV, Isaiah 14:16, Lucifer is a "man".

 

[fredoheaven]

Then you must mean, "men like Lucifer", not angels, because as I indicated, even in KJV, Isaiah 14:16, Lucifer is a "man".

Hi Sir,

Here are the verses cited for study and I quote:

Isah 14:12 -16 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, andconsider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Lucifer, the son of the morning and one of the stars of God has been fallen from heaven because of his "I wills" is not human as supposed. The stars of God as pointed out in Job 38:7 and Job 2:1 is a term used to describe angels and these angels were described as sons of God which the sons of God can also be describe to man. (John 1:12, Romans 8:14, 19 etc.)

God cares,

 

[Stonemason]

Hi Sir,

Here are the verses cited for study and I quote:

Isah 14:12 -16 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, andconsider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Lucifer, the son of the morning and one of the stars of God has been fallen from heaven because of his "I wills" is not human as supposed. The stars of God as pointed out in Job 38:7 and Job 2:1 is a term used to describe angels and these angels were described as sons of God which the sons of God can also be describe to man. (John 1:12, Romans 8:14, 19 etc.)

God cares,

I disagree, especially to the NT references wherein you're conflating "children of God" as "angels", thus "sons of God". Job 38:7 blatantly depicts a marked distinction between "stars and angels". Job 2:1, if anything, as in Job 1, identifies Satan as disparate from angels. Are you even reading these passages you cite?

I'd be more compelled by a juxtaposition of Isaiah 14 to Ezekiel 28. Both are kings of a land with evil. Both are referenced as "men". Both have "heavenly rhetoric", both had lofty narcissistic ambitions and God told both of them they were fail. I enjoy learning, but if you are going to compel me to study your position, please present some position worth studying.

 

[Blessed2Progress]

First let me thank you all for engaging, I believe, hope, and pray we all desire the TRUTH in the matter and we are all studying these things together as one body, in one SPIRIT, in one mind, and in one accord. Let me go further to say i myself just want to know the truth and desire not to take things out of context.

I do see a correlation between the passage in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28
I am going to pose a new question that perhaps will help us get to the TRUTH in the matter and prayerfully one accord as i believe we all desire to be in. I pray HOLY SPIRIT teach us, i am willing to learn.

in Isaiah 14:4 we start in context speaking of the king of Babylon :

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

and then further in the text we find

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

in Eziekiel 28:1-2 we find it directed at the king of Tyrus

28 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

and further into the text we find:

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So my questions in all sincerity to the fellow servants of GOD, my brethren and fellow saints is this:

is it possible that the king of Babylon was ever in heaven to be cast down?
or is it possible that the king of Tyrus had ever "been in Eden the garden of God"
also is it possible that the king of Tyrus was "the anointed cherub that covereth"
and "wast upon the holy mountain of God" and "walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
or is it possible that king of Tyrus was "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created"


I hope and pray this helps us understand more about what GOD is saying here.
i love you all, in deed and in truth, in the name of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach