Calvinism, Right or wrong?

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,596
1,091
113
Australia
#81
Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Can i choose who i want to serve today? Even if i have known Gods grace, can i reject God?

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#82
I'd suggest reading What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul if you want to accurately understand Reformed Theology.

The anti-Reformed people here will likely inaccurately represent it, and also you won't get the Scriptural support for it, which is in abundance. I would particularly suggest reading John 6, Romans 8-11 and Ephesians 1-2.

I do not believe the infant baptism part of Reformed theology, and I think their view of the covenants is oversimplified, but in essence I am in agreement with it.

I was in agreement with it before I knew what it was called, simply from reading Scripture. I remember my Arminian pastor telling me I was a Calvinist when I explained to him why I felt his teaching was off base on some topics, particularly eternal security.

Anyways the Arminians will argue this one to death, but ultimately God is sovereign in all things, and is the author and finisher of salvation. All glory and honor belongs to Him, and self is not our co-Savior. I rarely see non-Reformed people talking about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, and that is indicative of a problem. I don't acknowledge either Mary OR self as a co-Savior, and to be honest Arminianism, to me, is very much a return to the thinking of Rome (Catholicism lite, without the pope and indulgences and Mariology). I didn't initiate my salvation, nor will I complete it..it is totally a work of God.

Also, the caricatures of being a robot are a joke. Calvinism doesn't teach that. We freely pursue sin prior to salvation due to a fallen nature, and we freely pursue righteousness after salvation due to the new nature. It can be said that we are slaves to sin, in a way, prior to salvation because we freely pursue it out of necessity due to our fallen nature, but when I say this, I am only saying explicitly what Scripture says.

I am not a big fan of the word Calvinism by the way...I prefer Reformed theology or monergism. Calvin wasn't the founder of Reformed theology, neither was Augustine. It is derived systematically through studying Scripture.

Anyways, if someone wants to HONESTLY study Reformed theology, I can suggest RC Sproul's book What is Reformed Theology? as an introduction, then some of James White's books such as Potter's Freedom or Sovereign Grace for more advanced understanding. If you really want to see a good example of the futile arguments of the opposition, read the book that he did debating Dave Hunt called Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views.

Basically Hunt's argument was, if Calvinism is true, God is not loving. Which is the common argument from Arminians. They think that they define the parameters of God's acceptable behavior by their human standards, rather than allowing Scripture to speak with regards to this topic. Calvinists do not judge God whatsoever...if Scripture says something, it's true. For example, Scripture indicates eternal conscious torment (or most agree with this view)....most Arminians have no issue with accepting this view, even though it is hard to comprehend how the garden-variety unbeliever deserves it. They also have no issue with God destroying entire families for the sins of the family head (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, as well as Achan in another incident), even though that violates the human concept of "fairness". But, when it comes to Reformed theology, all of a sudden they have a problem because they think election is "unfair"...that God would save some rather than all. I would remind them that the fair thing is that all go to eternal punishment due to their sins, and that it's only by God's grace that ANY are saved. Our Western entitlement mentality chafes against this, but it is true.

In addition, I actually think that Reformed theology is more fair in a way than the Arminian view. If God sovereignly elects people out of all nations, He makes absolutely sure they come to faith, regardless of anything that may be a barrier. For example, I have a friend in Saudi Arabia who came to Christ. God provided him a dream AND a former missionary to Muslims to guide him to Christ. Hearing his testimony was a very emotional experience for me. He had ABSOLUTELY no intentions of becoming a Christian; in fact my understanding is that he was in language school so he could become a jihadi and God gave him the dream during this training..so there was absolutely nothing about him pursuing the Christian God which merited his salvation. It wasn't his "fault" that he was raised in an environment that taught him to hate the one true God...God's grace overcomes all such obstacles...but according to the Arminian frame of mind, salvation is ultimately about you having enough residual righteousness to make the appropriate response.

So, in general, I think election is more fair to individuals like my friend, who through no fault of his own was born in a culture hostile toward Christianity, without the benefit of Christian parents, with the odds heavily weighed against him coming to the Christian faith. God is able to save anyone out of any environment through his sovereign grace.

Read Daniel 4 and see if Nebuchadnezzar had such intentions...notice how God brought Nebuchadnezzar to submission, and broke his foolish pride..Nebuchadnezzar ended up praising God as a result. God knows each person inside and out and can bring them to full repentance if he desires. To deny otherwise is to deny God's omniscience, omnipotence and power. The question is, why isn't He doing so? Election explains that well for me.

Just a few thing to think about..I'm sure the Arminian side is producing their own arguments, largely based on philosophical assertions.

By the way, if this falls back to John 3:16, Reformed theology wholeheartedly acknowledges this verse..who has faith but the elect? God provides faith as a gift to those who are redeemed (Ephesians 2:8-10). Regarding phrases like "all men", if you read the context, these remarks are largely meant to point out that not only Jews are going to be saved, but also Gentiles. Regarding other "difficult scriptures", consider who the audience of the letter is...is it talking about people within the church, or the world? A lot of the Scriptures Arminians will point to have a specific context, and the context is not being considered in their explanations.

So, whether I like it or not, from a human perspective, I think Reformed theology best reflects the biblical teaching. I believe there may be some missing piece to the puzzle which may more fully reconcile some of the troubling issues involved with it, but in essence it is the best SYSTEMATIC theology. Until something better comes along, which surely isn't Arminian theology (I find their exaltation of man's autonomous free will to be disgusting and dishonoring to God), it's the systematic theology I embrace.

In addition, Reformed teachers are generally very faithful to presenting God's word. Everything they believe, they support with Scripture, and they have an exalted view of God's holiness and sovereignty. I cannot say so with the Arminian camp, where several really bad teachings are rampant in the church..I could name several of these bad teachings but I will defer :)
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#83
Calvinism cannot escape the God who is nothing more than a devil that it creates, and Arminianism cannot escape the man who is nothing less than God that it creates.


Both fail miserably as explanations of the reality of God and His will, means and purpose. What is truly funny is that about the only thing the two camps agree upon is that theirs are the only two options available to us.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#84
Anyways, if someone wants to HONESTLY study Reformed theology, I can suggest RC Sproul's book What is Reformed Theology? as an introduction, then some of James White's books such as Potter's Freedom or Sovereign Grace for more advanced understanding. If you really want to see a good example of the futile arguments of the opposition, read the book that he did debating Dave Hunt called Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views.
So you are recommending someone whom is not accredited?




White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a presuppositional apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He received a BA from Grand Canyon College, an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a ThM, a ThD and a DMin from Columbia Evangelical Seminary (formerly Faraston Seminary),[1] an unaccredited distance-learning school[2] where he also serves as a faculty mentor.[3] He is also a critical consultant for the Lockman Foundation's New American Standard Bible.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_White_(theologian)

Faraston Seminary is unaccredited so his "advanced degrees" are unaccredited.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#85
I'd suggest reading What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul if you want to accurately understand Reformed Theology.
What do you think about infant Baptism? Do you think it is Biblical?
 
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prodigal

Guest
#86
i like rc sproul, though i dont agree with all he says. he does a good study on the trinity and on early heresies, that i cant fault. James white does some good stuff on evangelising to moslems for those of us that dont want to just kill em all.. here's another, dr Peter Jones does a good piece on oneism and the paganism of today.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,742
3,555
113
#87
I'd suggest reading the Holy Bible if you want to know what free will is all about:)

I'd suggest reading What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul if you want to accurately understand Reformed Theology.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,330
6,619
113
#88
wee elephant peeks in to say:

In my humble opinion, WRONG.....

wee elephant exits Stage Right..... elephant-3.gif
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,596
1,091
113
Australia
#89
"but ultimately God is sovereign in all things"
i agree with this statement.
If doubts are planted about the character of God, How can you get ride of those seeds of doubt even if you want to?
They need to be disproved, or you can just ignore them. I have questions for God and there are many things about God that i will probably never understand, but i trust that God will answer my questions one day. Just because He is sovereign doesn't mean all our question are answered and no doubts can be planted.

Do you think Satan has planted any seeds of doubt about the character of God? He deceived a third of the angels.
Could Satan say God isn't really loving, God is just forcing the whole universe to worship Him because if we don't He will destroy us. He holds a Gun at your head and says love me or i'll kill you.
sovereign = a person who has supreme power or authority.
Do you believe God is allowing Himself to be on trial to the whole universe so that any doubts can be answered in His actions, so that we choose to love Him, not because of His supreme power, but because of His supreme love.
If God chooses who is saved, and i'm one of those elected people, what will God say to me if i ask him why he chose me and not my neighbour?
If God is sovereign than why didn't He just kill the divil and why did Jesus have to die, why prolong the agony in the world if God can just fix everything in an instant, He already knows who will be saved?

 
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sparkman

Guest
#90
So you are recommending someone whom is not accredited?






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_White_(theologian)

Faraston Seminary is unaccredited so his "advanced degrees" are unaccredited.
Yeah, he's so "disreputable" that he was a critical consultant for the New American Standard Bible..one of the best translations available. :)

He's taught New Testament Greek for many years.

However if you object, perhaps you'd like to read RC Sproul..his credentials are indisputable. Chosen by God would be an additional book.

With regards to defending Reformed theology, White has been one of the most notable individuals, and his books have been endorsed by sound Reformed theologians. If he misspoke on a topic, it would be noted in the Reformed community. I have seen no such criticisms.

Some so-called moderate Calvinists have criticized him for remarks he made about Geisler's works, but their position is not true Reformed theology. They deny one or more points.
 
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#91
You're right. Paul helped murder Stephen so why in the world should he be one of the apostles? Ludicrous!
Did you mean Saul?

Paul said he had wronged no man.
+++
2nd Corinthians 5:15-18
King James Version(KJV)

15.)And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16.)Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17.)Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18.)And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
 
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sparkman

Guest
#92
What do you think about infant Baptism? Do you think it is Biblical?
Baptism doesn't convey grace. If a group wants to use infant baptism as a dedication ceremony, I'd have no issue with it. I don't consider it to be a big issue. I just don't agree that it is entirely appropriate as some baptized as babies think saving grace was conveyed through the ceremony.

If a group claims baby baptism conveys grace, and infuses righteousness, I strongly disagree. Sacraments are dramatizations of spiritual realities. They are not the spiritual reality, but a dramatization of a spiritual reality. The spiritual reality that baptism dramatizes is regeneration or the new birth (see Colossians 2). A baby has not experienced regeneration or the new birth so it's inappropriate.

I believe Reformed people take the analogy between the Old Covenant circumcision and New Covenant baptism a bit too far. However, they do not claim it confers saving grace. If they taught that saving grace was conveyed, it would be a different story.

I should qualify by saying Presbyterians tend to hold this view of baptism. Reformed Baptists do not; they believe in credobaptism (believer's baptism), not paedobaptism.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#93
Yeah, he's so disreputable that he was a critical consultant for the New American Standard Bible..one of the best translations available. :)

He's taught New Testament Greek for many years.
One of the problems is that he talks too much and I found mistakes in his youtube video.
Another internet user ran with it and I corrected him.
Since when are teachers allowed to teach stuff that isn't true?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#94
I'd suggest reading the Holy Bible if you want to know what free will is all about:)
I highly recommend reading the Bible too..including John 6, Romans 8-11, and Ephesians 1-2.

In fact, read all of Romans.

Reformed theology is not based on the works of man; it is based on Scripture. As I said in previous remarks (which you conveniently omitted), I derived the essential core understanding of Reformed theology through my simple reading of the Bible in an Arminian environment where I was taught otherwise. I did not even know anything about Calvin until my Arminian pastor brought him up.

:)
 
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sparkman

Guest
#96
One of the problems is that he talks too much and I found mistakes in his youtube video.
Another internet user ran with it and I corrected him.
Since when are teachers allowed to teach stuff that isn't true?
Provide specific examples and we can examine them.

Otherwise, claiming someone made mistakes or is teaching error is not productive. James White himself would say that his teaching is subject to Scripture. However, claiming someone is in error without 1) producing the example and 2) producing the Scriptural evidence that he is in error is not productive.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#97
You're not getting the reason God sent Jonah. It was ALL due to protecting the "seed" promised in Genesis 3:15. The entire Old Testament is about preserving the "seed."

Question: Did God have every intention of destroying Nineveh? Yes. We see this through the message, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Did God destroy Nineveh? No. Why? Because they repented of their wickedness and cried out to God. God in turn changed His mind and did not destroy them.

Calvinist have a hard time with Jonah. For a Calvinist it's impossible for God to change His mind, but we see it over and over in the Old Testament. Instead of agreeing, they usually become Bible correcters.
Yeah, I'm not getting it because God can't multitask.

You lose on your last paragraph. I'm a Calvinist and Jonah is my hero because I'm most like him. Then again, you've got the mind of a KJVist, so logic isn't a forte.

(BTW, I'm glad I didn't hold my breath last week when you were going to bring it on and argue something with me. Never did get that bring-it-on.)


(Cat picture meme only because I agree sometimes visuals are more entertaining than pargraphs. lol)
 
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sparkman

Guest
#98
"but ultimately God is sovereign in all things"
i agree with this statement.
If doubts are planted about the character of God, How can you get ride of those seeds of doubt even if you want to?
They need to be disproved, or you can just ignore them. I have questions for God and there are many things about God that i will probably never understand, but i trust that God will answer my questions one day. Just because He is sovereign doesn't mean all our question are answered and no doubts can be planted.

Do you think Satan has planted any seeds of doubt about the character of God? He deceived a third of the angels.
Could Satan say God isn't really loving, God is just forcing the whole universe to worship Him because if we don't He will destroy us. He holds a Gun at your head and says love me or i'll kill you.
sovereign = apersonwhohassupremepowerorauthority.
Do you believe God is allowing Himself to be on trial to the whole universe so that any doubts can be answered in His actions, so that we choose to love Him, not because of His supreme power, but because of His supreme love.
If God chooses who is saved, and i'm one of those elected people, what will God say to me if i ask him why he chose me and not my neighbour?
If God is sovereign than why didn't He just kill the divil and why did Jesus have to die, why prolong the agony in the world if God can just fix everything in an instant, He already knows who will be saved?


One question I'd ask is whether God is on trial.

Seventh Day Adventists claim that God is on trial, and his character needs to be vindicated by redeemed people by keeping the Ten Commandments, primarily the Sabbath. According to them, Satan accuses God of creating a law that is too tough to follow, so they are keeping it to prove Satan wrong and to vindicate God's fairness.

The whole idea that God needs to vindicate Himself (or have some petty humans vindicate Him) before mankind is in error. God is sovereign and none of his judgments are to be questioned by fallen mankind.

By the way, this is quite often the ploy of skeptics and atheists. They wrap themselves in the robes of a judge, and point to various things YHVH did in the Old Testament, and declare them to be unjust, unloving, and unfair, and denying his existence on the basis of their judgments. They do this while at the same time being upheld by the same God that they are accusing...it's like a toddler climbing up in the lap of the father and slapping him repetitively, demanding answers to questions regarding decisions the parent has made regarding their actions, claiming He doesn't exist if he doesn't meet their criteria for fairness or justness.

Regarding your question...if you ask him why he saved a redeemed person rather than another, the answer is simple..grace..simple unmerited favor. We do nothing to earn or merit it. In the opposing viewpoint, salvation is ultimately about merit in some way...I was wise enough to choose God, and others are not, so it's their fault they are lost. Reformed theology would simply answer its all about grace..totally.

Regarding the appropriateness of the atonement, the atonement shows the absolute seriousness of sinning against God, and the fact that someone paid that price in substitution for us, through an agonizing death, should propel us toward loving obedience in appreciation for his suffering and sacrifice, still maintaining the seriousness of the offense of sin. We see God's justness and mercifulness perfectly expressed in penal substitutionary atonement.

It's common nowadays for liberal churches and theologians to deny penal substitutionary atonement, calling it "cosmic child abuse" because this, too, insults their human standards of fairness..there was nothing fair about the atonement...it was all purely about grace and willingness to accept punishment that was not due to Christ.
 
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Chuckt

Guest
#99
Provide specific examples and we can examine them.

Otherwise, claiming someone made mistakes or is teaching error is not productive. James White himself would say that his teaching is subject to Scripture. However, claiming someone is in error without 1) producing the example and 2) producing the Scriptural evidence that he is in error is not productive.
Are you willing to watch a 40 minute video or more?
And what would you do about him if I showed he was in error?
I can't post the message board link because that is against the rules.
I'm headed out to church so I don't know if I will have the time.

You're asking me to do something but what are you willing to do?
Most of the time people are asking me to prove something and they aren't willing to do anything.
 
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Depleted

Guest
I've seen that website you posted and I don't recommend it and when I say I don't recommend it, I mean it. I've communicated with the author of that website and I don't recommend talking to him. His website has no credibility with me.

The problem is that Calvinism / Arminianism is a debate that people hold to usually if they are Calvinists and a lot of people have a hard time arguing without the debate getting personal or degenerating into something not polite.
You're recommendations, like you're theology, are highly selective. The truth is 90% of the time Calvin v. Arminius debates show up on here is because of the Arminians. We Calvinists aren't the ones who think salvation is achieved by doing and believing the exact right thing 100% correctly; i.e. Calvinism isn't salvation.

I just get annoyed how much Arminians lie about what we do believe and how many would rather read the lies than read what we really believe and then think it out themselves. But warning on doing that: Doing that turned me into a Calvinist. I used to be an Arminian. lol