Put the church on a milk carton!
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Paul said that after his death, wolves would set up the clerical system. Acts 20:29
God has always had a remnant that refused the apostasies down through the centuries. The Catholic Church murdered about 50 million of them, I last read. No one knows the true number.
The question has always been is it ok for the 'church' to do the opposite of what God commands and still be the 'church'?
Many on this site believe so. I don't believe so. But there are many who are fleeing the false 'church' to get closer to Christ.
Organised religion is a hindrance to the body of Christ. See my threads. I rest on the word of God. I know that's a strange proposition to many but I believe it's the right thing to do.
God has always had a remnant that refused the apostasies down through the centuries. The Catholic Church murdered about 50 million of them, I last read. No one knows the true number.
The question has always been is it ok for the 'church' to do the opposite of what God commands and still be the 'church'?
Many on this site believe so. I don't believe so. But there are many who are fleeing the false 'church' to get closer to Christ.
Organised religion is a hindrance to the body of Christ. See my threads. I rest on the word of God. I know that's a strange proposition to many but I believe it's the right thing to do.
Jesus had this problem as well.
In John 18:23. He said if He had said something wrong or false, they should show Him. They never did because they couldn't. And He said if He spoke the truth why did they hit Him? Of course they couldn't answer that either.
I always get accused of falsifying the word but no one shows an example. They just smack me with an accusation..
Jesus said if they persecute Him, they'll do the same to His own. John 15:20
In John 18:23. He said if He had said something wrong or false, they should show Him. They never did because they couldn't. And He said if He spoke the truth why did they hit Him? Of course they couldn't answer that either.
I always get accused of falsifying the word but no one shows an example. They just smack me with an accusation..
Jesus said if they persecute Him, they'll do the same to His own. John 15:20
S
The assumption is that God's way = Yet's way.
You use certain Scriptures while ignoring others, in addition placing criteria upon pastors that are NOT biblical.
Two examples, in the short time I've been reading your threads, are claiming that pastors MUST hold a secular job or they are Pharisees, and if you honor your pastor with an appreciation day, you are doing something displeasing in God's sight.
Paul said the fellowship has the obligation to provide for those who preach the gospel, and those who are elders should receive double honor.
This stuff is Bible 101.
You use certain Scriptures while ignoring others, in addition placing criteria upon pastors that are NOT biblical.
Two examples, in the short time I've been reading your threads, are claiming that pastors MUST hold a secular job or they are Pharisees, and if you honor your pastor with an appreciation day, you are doing something displeasing in God's sight.
Paul said the fellowship has the obligation to provide for those who preach the gospel, and those who are elders should receive double honor.
This stuff is Bible 101.
What it actually says is:
Acts 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 .) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 .) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 .) Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Pastors are "overseers" of the church........and the grievous wolves enter in, they are not the Pastors.
Jesus warned of this as well........and I would think Paul was emphasizing His warning.....
Matthew 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 .) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Jesus is not speaking of Pastors...........
This is where you and I differ so greatly. I do not condemn ALL men and women who obey His call.
BTW: Paul does not mention them setting up anything........so where do you get that from?
P
If you will go back to verse 17 you will see that Paul was adressing the Elders.
The NT uses the words ELDER, BISHOP, PRESBYTERS interchangeably and we have added the word PASTOR to that list.
They were and are the ones who presided over the churches.
It was their responsibly to watch over the local church.
They were not to lord over or rule over, but to serve as a shepherd cares for sheep.
I reallize that many have and do violate their place, but to accuse ALL or MOST is to lie.
To teach that ALL or MOST local churches are evil and ALL local churches should be avoided is the work of Satan.
If you really want to do the Godly thing, point out those who are wicked by giving names, and encourage those who are there to seek out a local church that is striving to do things according to God's plan.
In some areas that may take a lot of time and work, but remember what Jesus did for His church.
The NT uses the words ELDER, BISHOP, PRESBYTERS interchangeably and we have added the word PASTOR to that list.
They were and are the ones who presided over the churches.
It was their responsibly to watch over the local church.
They were not to lord over or rule over, but to serve as a shepherd cares for sheep.
I reallize that many have and do violate their place, but to accuse ALL or MOST is to lie.
To teach that ALL or MOST local churches are evil and ALL local churches should be avoided is the work of Satan.
If you really want to do the Godly thing, point out those who are wicked by giving names, and encourage those who are there to seek out a local church that is striving to do things according to God's plan.
In some areas that may take a lot of time and work, but remember what Jesus did for His church.
If you have read most of my threads, I have NOT avoided other scriptures.
Bible 101, but not as your pastor defines it.
We are to support the itinerant preachers. Paul expounded on that, yet he refused it, for the most part, so others could not accuse him of profiting from preaching.
Elders in the local body are to serve without charge. Not for filthy lucre.
Be shepherds of God's flock under your care......not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve.1Peter 5:2
About the elders working instead of sponging, it wasn't my idea, though I like it. I direct you to Acts 20:33-35
If they are commanded to work jobs to support themselves and help the poor, why are they being paid salaries in the local body?
Now lets take a look at that DOUBLE salary.
1Tim.5:17-18 'Let the elders that direct well be counted worthy of double honor. Especially they who labor in the word.'
The Greek for honor here is timees, the prevalent meaning is respect, honor.
If it meant money or salary, the Greek word opsonion would have been used which means wages, compensation, money.
It was deliberately NOT used here.
Vs.18 'For the scripture says, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the wheat. And the laborer is worthy of his reward.
The ox receives a reward. Feed. The elder receives a reward. Respect, honor.
I've used the following analogy many times.
Lets say you have a fellowship of 25 people. Twenty are elders, overseers all..see: 1Peter 5:2 and Acts 20:28
Of those 20, 15 are doing a fine job directing, managing. According to that verse, they deserve DOUBLE HONOUR.
And according to you, that means they deserve double salaries! How much is a double salary? What does that even me in dollar amount?
Lets say it is calculated by the average wage earner in the congregation. Let's shoot for 500.00 a week, factory wages.
Now double that. It's now 1000 dollars. So 15 elders means that the 5 non elders are going to have to come up with 15,000 dollars a week to pay these guys that 'double Honour'.
Bible 101 like you never heard it before...at least from any pulpit.
Bible 101, but not as your pastor defines it.
We are to support the itinerant preachers. Paul expounded on that, yet he refused it, for the most part, so others could not accuse him of profiting from preaching.
Elders in the local body are to serve without charge. Not for filthy lucre.
Be shepherds of God's flock under your care......not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve.1Peter 5:2
About the elders working instead of sponging, it wasn't my idea, though I like it. I direct you to Acts 20:33-35
If they are commanded to work jobs to support themselves and help the poor, why are they being paid salaries in the local body?
Now lets take a look at that DOUBLE salary.
1Tim.5:17-18 'Let the elders that direct well be counted worthy of double honor. Especially they who labor in the word.'
The Greek for honor here is timees, the prevalent meaning is respect, honor.
If it meant money or salary, the Greek word opsonion would have been used which means wages, compensation, money.
It was deliberately NOT used here.
Vs.18 'For the scripture says, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the wheat. And the laborer is worthy of his reward.
The ox receives a reward. Feed. The elder receives a reward. Respect, honor.
I've used the following analogy many times.
Lets say you have a fellowship of 25 people. Twenty are elders, overseers all..see: 1Peter 5:2 and Acts 20:28
Of those 20, 15 are doing a fine job directing, managing. According to that verse, they deserve DOUBLE HONOUR.
And according to you, that means they deserve double salaries! How much is a double salary? What does that even me in dollar amount?
Lets say it is calculated by the average wage earner in the congregation. Let's shoot for 500.00 a week, factory wages.
Now double that. It's now 1000 dollars. So 15 elders means that the 5 non elders are going to have to come up with 15,000 dollars a week to pay these guys that 'double Honour'.
Bible 101 like you never heard it before...at least from any pulpit.
1 Peters 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
filthy lucre = dishonest gain
willing or ready mind = honest gain.
So if the pastor did the feeding of God’s flock with ready or willing mind that is an honest gain. Allowance that is given to the pastor because he did spiritual feeding of the flock with ready or willing mind does constitute an honest gain and is honored by God.
Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to
receive.
Paul is not against of giving allowance or payment though honest gain but he is against the idea of covetousness or greediness. For sure Paul has accepted some as a sort of ministering to his needs and his company. Paul consider himself “weak” as in I Cor. 4;10 and showed them to remember those weak in giving and receiving knowing it is Jesus who have said “it is more blessed to give than to receive.”
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Acts 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome
and came unto them.
Acts 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Paul did not command pastors to seek secular jobs. The instance in Acts 18 have nothing to do with the command to seek jobs, rather Priscilla and Aquila has already had occupations which were tent makers.
A small new church pioneered by the pastor may not understand “the giving and receiving” and pastor who has a family is understood to practically seek temporary secular jobs to feed his own. But as time goes and the church is spiritually grown and considered to become independent, the pastor may now focus his attention to the flock of God and be willing to feed the church as the church is ready to support him.
NO which the Bible says of presuming the double honor to mean "double amount." Honour means the pastor is given a privilege for a double honor to what they have done which also in accordance to the church fund budget. Of course, if church fund budget is enough then church should double it as Paul said they are to be given a higher privilege because the pastor is giving all for the ministry and work in the Lordl and as far the Bible says they are "laboring much" in the Lord and ministry which somehow the flocks or the pew are not doing the same as the pastor. Your analogy in ox sounds good only, if the ox rewards because of his works all day long = FEED by its owner, the pastor’s reward = FEED by the church.
filthy lucre = dishonest gain
willing or ready mind = honest gain.
So if the pastor did the feeding of God’s flock with ready or willing mind that is an honest gain. Allowance that is given to the pastor because he did spiritual feeding of the flock with ready or willing mind does constitute an honest gain and is honored by God.
Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to
receive.
Paul is not against of giving allowance or payment though honest gain but he is against the idea of covetousness or greediness. For sure Paul has accepted some as a sort of ministering to his needs and his company. Paul consider himself “weak” as in I Cor. 4;10 and showed them to remember those weak in giving and receiving knowing it is Jesus who have said “it is more blessed to give than to receive.”
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Acts 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome
and came unto them.Acts 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Paul did not command pastors to seek secular jobs. The instance in Acts 18 have nothing to do with the command to seek jobs, rather Priscilla and Aquila has already had occupations which were tent makers.
A small new church pioneered by the pastor may not understand “the giving and receiving” and pastor who has a family is understood to practically seek temporary secular jobs to feed his own. But as time goes and the church is spiritually grown and considered to become independent, the pastor may now focus his attention to the flock of God and be willing to feed the church as the church is ready to support him.
NO which the Bible says of presuming the double honor to mean "double amount." Honour means the pastor is given a privilege for a double honor to what they have done which also in accordance to the church fund budget. Of course, if church fund budget is enough then church should double it as Paul said they are to be given a higher privilege because the pastor is giving all for the ministry and work in the Lordl and as far the Bible says they are "laboring much" in the Lord and ministry which somehow the flocks or the pew are not doing the same as the pastor. Your analogy in ox sounds good only, if the ox rewards because of his works all day long = FEED by its owner, the pastor’s reward = FEED by the church.
What scriptures have I presented that makes you conclude I'm a cult. Don't you own a bible Angela? Don't you at least take a look at all the scripture I posit? Thanks for praying for me but how about praying about the word of God I use to prove the Laodecian condition. Do you really think that the seven churches in Rev. were problematic only back then! Today's 'church' has no errors?
Youre way ahead of me. It's bizaar how so many on this site keep slamming me and will NOT discuss the word of God on this.
The last hour apostasy is indeed a 'stronghold'. I just wonder how many of our brothers and sisters are going to waltz off into la la land with the antichrist piping away led by their Divines. They have been primed for years to do so by false shepherds, hirelings, and mutton hungry wolves, not only full of sheep meat but FULL OF THEMSELVES!
Yea, anymore I just sling the 'whole' truth out against the ecclesiastical wall and see what sticks. Time to quit tip toeing around the ugly obvious and 'speak forth and hold not our peace'. Acts 18:9. Isaiah 62:1.
Im called mean spirited. If so, then Jesus was the meanest man that ever trod this city dump called earth!
The last hour apostasy is indeed a 'stronghold'. I just wonder how many of our brothers and sisters are going to waltz off into la la land with the antichrist piping away led by their Divines. They have been primed for years to do so by false shepherds, hirelings, and mutton hungry wolves, not only full of sheep meat but FULL OF THEMSELVES!
Yea, anymore I just sling the 'whole' truth out against the ecclesiastical wall and see what sticks. Time to quit tip toeing around the ugly obvious and 'speak forth and hold not our peace'. Acts 18:9. Isaiah 62:1.
Im called mean spirited. If so, then Jesus was the meanest man that ever trod this city dump called earth!
This is quite impractical. It is just as unworkable as the mega church multi million dollar budgets. These two contentions are simply polar opposites.
The apostles had all their needs met through the generosity of fellow believers. The apostles also dedicated themselves to full time study of Gods word and ministering to the lost.
Bible 101 not as taught by Jesus or the apostles.
Seems that a church of 25 would not have 20 elders. If there were 20 men able in the word of God the church would grow mightily through their witness and new souls being saved.
If we lived in a world where we farmed and lived in small communities then pastors would have their own support and the folks could give as a community to missions and the poor. We do not live in that type of simplistic society.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The apostles had all their needs met through the generosity of fellow believers. The apostles also dedicated themselves to full time study of Gods word and ministering to the lost.
Bible 101 not as taught by Jesus or the apostles.
Seems that a church of 25 would not have 20 elders. If there were 20 men able in the word of God the church would grow mightily through their witness and new souls being saved.
If we lived in a world where we farmed and lived in small communities then pastors would have their own support and the folks could give as a community to missions and the poor. We do not live in that type of simplistic society.
For the cause of Christ
Roger