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That is a good question. We can see how scripture describes the earth as Israel early in the text. If the earth in verse 16 suggests this to be Israel then we are faced with the Question of how Israel would help Israel in this? I am not sure I have the answer to this. I am wondering if this is not speaking of Israel who had accepts Jesus as the Messiah. This is the true Israel. Again, I am not sure I have an answer to this.
The promise was given in respect to the one seed (spiritual )Christ and not seeds in respect to the outward flesh of the whole Jewish race .When it comes to the seeds, many .
God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying both hearts by the same work of Christ faith . He is no respecter of persons.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 (not Abraham according to the flesh many )
Abraham is used to represent the Father of spirits, the father of many nation. Abraham bossum id=s the very presence of God.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying both hearts by the same work of Christ faith . He is no respecter of persons.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 (not Abraham according to the flesh many )
Abraham is used to represent the Father of spirits, the father of many nation. Abraham bossum id=s the very presence of God.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus Galatians 3
we are not christian jews, and we are not christian gentiles. christian s was the word given to believers of jesus , they had to be called something. etc ie christian believers.
given the jews were converting to christian belief. then came the gentile. etc
it dose not say non christian jew, or
Antichrist
ˈantɪkrʌɪst/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
we are not christian jews, and we are not christian gentiles. christian s was the word given to believers of jesus , they had to be called something. etc ie christian believers.
given the jews were converting to christian belief. then came the gentile. etc
it dose not say non christian jew, or
Antichrist
ˈantɪkrʌɪst/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
- (in some Christian teachings) a personal opponent of Christ expected to appear before the end of the world.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"the battle between Christ and the Antichrist"[/COLOR]
- a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]plural noun: Antichrists[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"St Paul really did have to fear for his life at the hands of an Antichrist named Nero"[/COLOR] - a person or thing regarded as supremely evil or as a fundamental enemy or opponent.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"they regard feminists like me as the Antichrist"
not a believer of jesus christ. how many religions, do you know, that are against the belief of jesus christ.
hence final battle or second coming. [/COLOR]
- a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church.
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Brother oldhermit,
Maybe this "earth" in v 16, is the earth of creation mentioned in ch 14:7.
Not Israel, but part of the earthly creation, the land mass earth.
Rome sends out a "flood" (river) of people, but the extent of Rome's influence is limited by distance.
===============================================
In v 17 wouldn't the remnant of her seed be the Christians?
The earth helps the woman Israel escape from Rome,
But her "seed" remains under Rome's influence.
If the woman is Israel escaping From the destruction of Jerusalem,
and the Christians are her seed,
don't we have the seed, Christians, remaining in Jerusalem? under Rome's influence?
If this is a literal 3 1/2 year time frame, there is a very small window of fulfillment.
Maybe this "earth" in v 16, is the earth of creation mentioned in ch 14:7.
Not Israel, but part of the earthly creation, the land mass earth.
Rome sends out a "flood" (river) of people, but the extent of Rome's influence is limited by distance.
===============================================
In v 17 wouldn't the remnant of her seed be the Christians?
The earth helps the woman Israel escape from Rome,
But her "seed" remains under Rome's influence.
If the woman is Israel escaping From the destruction of Jerusalem,
and the Christians are her seed,
don't we have the seed, Christians, remaining in Jerusalem? under Rome's influence?
If this is a literal 3 1/2 year time frame, there is a very small window of fulfillment.
It would seem that the "earth" mentioned in 14:7 is the literal earth from the way the text represents it. Notice the proclamation of the angels in verses 6-8.
“And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” “And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
The first angel is represented here is as the messenger of the gospel. This angel/messenger is fulfilling the task of Matthew 24:14 and 31. The target of this gospel is “those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.”
24:14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
24:31“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
This is not a picture of rapture but one of conversion of those of the nations. The eternal gospel of this angel is the same as the gospel foretold by Christ in Matthew 24:14. The result of the preaching of that gospel was the purchasing of men from “every nation and tribe and tongue and people.” These were those of Revelation 5:6-9 who were purchased with the blood of the Lamb. These were those against whom the sea beast (Rome) waged war in 13:7. These are those who had embraced the gospel and worshiped the Lamb. In verses 1-5 we see the assembly of the faithful remnant of Israel and in verses 6- 8 we have the redeemed from the other nations. These make up the whole assembly of the people of God. Jesus promised in Matthew 24:14 that when the Gospel had accomplished its desired effect “then the end shall come.” The end of course is qualified by the context of Matthew 24 – the destruction of the temple and this is precisely what the second angel proclaims.
The second messenger is the messenger of doom as he heralds the fall of Jerusalem. “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.” This is the “great city” mentioned in 11:8 where the Lord was crucified. We can look at this in much greater detail in chapter eighteen. Jerusalem has been referred to as Sodom, Egypt, and now Babylon. This is the Woman who we will see later on who sits on the scarlet beast in chapter seventeen. This is the city whom God repeatedly charged with adultery against him. "As for your adulteries and your lustful neighings, the lewdness of your prostitution on the hills in the field, I have seen your abominations. Woe to you, O Jerusalem! How long will you remain unclean?" Jeremiah 13:17. Read the book of Hosea to get a sense of the depths of Israel's immorality against God. In Ezekiel 16:14-59, God paints a vivid picture of Israel's history of unfaithfulness and harlotry with the nations. Jerusalem is the great city who commits adultery with all the nations around her and now, she has fallen.
I think Christians are indeed the direct remnant of her seed but not just Christians in general but Jewish Christians in particular. These are the remnants of the seed of the woman.
In Matthew 24:15-28 Jesus tells his disciples,“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”
Josephus records the fact that when Jerusalem fell, not one Christian perished in the city. This was due to the fact that they had already been warned to flee Judea when they saw the armies of Roam marching against Jerusalem. Jesus said that they were to flee to the mountains. When Rome moved against Jerusalem all the Christians in fled to the mountains of Pela in order to avoid being trapped in the city. Jesus conveys the urgency of the situation by saying
1. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house."
2. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak."
3. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" The obvious reason was the simple fact that of the difficulty of travel and escape for those women who were pregnant or burdened with small children.
4. "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter," The reason would be because of the harshness of travel and survival in winter conditions.
5. "or on a Sabbath." The fear in this lay in the fact that on the Sabbath, the gates of the city would be close thus hindering their escape. Of course the gates of the city were not the only means of entering or leaving the city but with the gates of the city being closed this would have made escape much more difficult.
“And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” “And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
The first angel is represented here is as the messenger of the gospel. This angel/messenger is fulfilling the task of Matthew 24:14 and 31. The target of this gospel is “those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.”
24:14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
24:31“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
This is not a picture of rapture but one of conversion of those of the nations. The eternal gospel of this angel is the same as the gospel foretold by Christ in Matthew 24:14. The result of the preaching of that gospel was the purchasing of men from “every nation and tribe and tongue and people.” These were those of Revelation 5:6-9 who were purchased with the blood of the Lamb. These were those against whom the sea beast (Rome) waged war in 13:7. These are those who had embraced the gospel and worshiped the Lamb. In verses 1-5 we see the assembly of the faithful remnant of Israel and in verses 6- 8 we have the redeemed from the other nations. These make up the whole assembly of the people of God. Jesus promised in Matthew 24:14 that when the Gospel had accomplished its desired effect “then the end shall come.” The end of course is qualified by the context of Matthew 24 – the destruction of the temple and this is precisely what the second angel proclaims.
The second messenger is the messenger of doom as he heralds the fall of Jerusalem. “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.” This is the “great city” mentioned in 11:8 where the Lord was crucified. We can look at this in much greater detail in chapter eighteen. Jerusalem has been referred to as Sodom, Egypt, and now Babylon. This is the Woman who we will see later on who sits on the scarlet beast in chapter seventeen. This is the city whom God repeatedly charged with adultery against him. "As for your adulteries and your lustful neighings, the lewdness of your prostitution on the hills in the field, I have seen your abominations. Woe to you, O Jerusalem! How long will you remain unclean?" Jeremiah 13:17. Read the book of Hosea to get a sense of the depths of Israel's immorality against God. In Ezekiel 16:14-59, God paints a vivid picture of Israel's history of unfaithfulness and harlotry with the nations. Jerusalem is the great city who commits adultery with all the nations around her and now, she has fallen.
I think Christians are indeed the direct remnant of her seed but not just Christians in general but Jewish Christians in particular. These are the remnants of the seed of the woman.
In Matthew 24:15-28 Jesus tells his disciples,“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”
Josephus records the fact that when Jerusalem fell, not one Christian perished in the city. This was due to the fact that they had already been warned to flee Judea when they saw the armies of Roam marching against Jerusalem. Jesus said that they were to flee to the mountains. When Rome moved against Jerusalem all the Christians in fled to the mountains of Pela in order to avoid being trapped in the city. Jesus conveys the urgency of the situation by saying
1. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house."
2. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak."
3. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" The obvious reason was the simple fact that of the difficulty of travel and escape for those women who were pregnant or burdened with small children.
4. "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter," The reason would be because of the harshness of travel and survival in winter conditions.
5. "or on a Sabbath." The fear in this lay in the fact that on the Sabbath, the gates of the city would be close thus hindering their escape. Of course the gates of the city were not the only means of entering or leaving the city but with the gates of the city being closed this would have made escape much more difficult.
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Says who? But that contradicts with what is written in Romans 11:
Romans Chapter 11
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d]a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy.32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
It no where indicates above that AT the 2nd coming of Christ, Israel will be restored/saved. But instead, 'until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in'
Romans Chapter 11
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d]a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy.32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
It no where indicates above that AT the 2nd coming of Christ, Israel will be restored/saved. But instead, 'until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in'
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Brother oldhermit,
I love reading and studying your material.
I'm still studying it, and it will take some time to think about it.
We are in agreement, in general, on some passages.
Of course I agree with all your historical accounts.
===================================
I will be up front with you, I have my own opinions.
I look at things in a different way, I'm telling you in case you haven't noticed.
I've been wrong before, and there is proof on this website,
I freely admit that my brothers and sisters have corrected me in the scriptures for my benefit.
If I am wrong I WANT to be corrected.
But that doesn't mean I'm just going to give in without scriptural proof either.
============================================
People have discussed these things for centuries, and still are.
Maybe it is just a dream that we can resolve them.
Perhaps we should expect to never resolve them, only talk about them.
=======================================
I hope that you can prove me wrong,
But if you can't,
It means that Jesus will appear and this planet will come to an end, very soon.
I believe you are thinking, "another crazy",
But what if I can persuade you?
Maybe not even persuade, just so you say that there is a "reasonable chance" or a "possibility" that I could be right.
============================================
I don't want to destroy what you believe about the prophecies,
but I will ask the hard questions to see if your interpretation will stand.
I expect the same.
=============================================
We should continue focusing on Rev 12, and then Rev 13, and see how it goes, if you want or whatever.
It's just that in those chapters there are things that would resolve a lot of issues for me.
Since we agree on most parts of ch 12, we should continue there.
==============================================
I don't have a lot of time now,
I'd like to discuss only a few verses or a chapter at a time.
If you are still willing to do it. If not that's ok.
Brother John
I love reading and studying your material.
I'm still studying it, and it will take some time to think about it.
We are in agreement, in general, on some passages.
Of course I agree with all your historical accounts.
===================================
I will be up front with you, I have my own opinions.
I look at things in a different way, I'm telling you in case you haven't noticed.
I've been wrong before, and there is proof on this website,
I freely admit that my brothers and sisters have corrected me in the scriptures for my benefit.
If I am wrong I WANT to be corrected.
But that doesn't mean I'm just going to give in without scriptural proof either.
============================================
People have discussed these things for centuries, and still are.
Maybe it is just a dream that we can resolve them.
Perhaps we should expect to never resolve them, only talk about them.
=======================================
I hope that you can prove me wrong,
But if you can't,
It means that Jesus will appear and this planet will come to an end, very soon.
I believe you are thinking, "another crazy",
But what if I can persuade you?
Maybe not even persuade, just so you say that there is a "reasonable chance" or a "possibility" that I could be right.
============================================
I don't want to destroy what you believe about the prophecies,
but I will ask the hard questions to see if your interpretation will stand.
I expect the same.
=============================================
We should continue focusing on Rev 12, and then Rev 13, and see how it goes, if you want or whatever.
It's just that in those chapters there are things that would resolve a lot of issues for me.
Since we agree on most parts of ch 12, we should continue there.
==============================================
I don't have a lot of time now,
I'd like to discuss only a few verses or a chapter at a time.
If you are still willing to do it. If not that's ok.
Brother John
I think in the end of the matter it is how we view "faith works".I say that seeing a person cannot separate faith from works(impossible) .This is whether we have it with the word it representing faith the unseen in respect to men we do see. Christ's nemesis, or Christ not seen, the anointing Holy Spirit of God himself, as it is written ? We can see the results when men have their faith in respect to that seen
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?Mat 23:32
Again this is not the measure of Christ, the word of God, the one source of faith by which we can know him who has no form. A clear distinction between the things of God, and those of men must be made if we are to hear God(not man ) aright.
We are made aware of the wile of the devil . That subtlety caused the fall.This is when the father of lies spoke through a serpent as that seen, and Adam and Eve used it to measure their faith....rejecting the faith that did come from hearing God who had no form. It reflected the same as Mathew 23 (Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers) as attributed to the outward flesh of the fathers, as well as Kings, Princes. Again Christ nemesis from the beginning, the fall, throughout history. The same wile repeats itself
The scriptures I believe inform us if we do have the faith of Christ in respect to any man, as that seen we have committed blasphemy of His Holy anointing Spirit, Christ (James 2)
.
Faith works in two ways .God's faith towards us as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure and our amen towards Him showing Him we have heard what he calls the hearing of faith as that which moved the creature to do His will..
Keeping that in mind in respect to the subject matter I would ask .
When did the separation of humanity into Jews and Gentiles occur? What was the purpose for naming two former Gentile nations, the Amorites in respect to Abram, and the Hittites in respect to Sarai as nations that born again Abraham who would later drive out.
Before his conversion he was considered of the confederacy(non-union with God) , a gentile, no faith.
Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Surely it was not so that men could put their faith in that which they could see, and destroy the faith principle.
Eze 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
Exodus 33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
Abel , believed God and it was imputed to him as a righteousness not of himself .Would he be the first recorded case of a Gentile?
What was the purpose of changing the name of the unbeliever Abram which means exalted father( singular) in respect to one nation ,and changing it to Abraham, the father of many nations giving rise to the word denominations ?
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?Mat 23:32
Again this is not the measure of Christ, the word of God, the one source of faith by which we can know him who has no form. A clear distinction between the things of God, and those of men must be made if we are to hear God(not man ) aright.
We are made aware of the wile of the devil . That subtlety caused the fall.This is when the father of lies spoke through a serpent as that seen, and Adam and Eve used it to measure their faith....rejecting the faith that did come from hearing God who had no form. It reflected the same as Mathew 23 (Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers) as attributed to the outward flesh of the fathers, as well as Kings, Princes. Again Christ nemesis from the beginning, the fall, throughout history. The same wile repeats itself
The scriptures I believe inform us if we do have the faith of Christ in respect to any man, as that seen we have committed blasphemy of His Holy anointing Spirit, Christ (James 2)
.
Faith works in two ways .God's faith towards us as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure and our amen towards Him showing Him we have heard what he calls the hearing of faith as that which moved the creature to do His will..
Keeping that in mind in respect to the subject matter I would ask .
When did the separation of humanity into Jews and Gentiles occur? What was the purpose for naming two former Gentile nations, the Amorites in respect to Abram, and the Hittites in respect to Sarai as nations that born again Abraham who would later drive out.
Before his conversion he was considered of the confederacy(non-union with God) , a gentile, no faith.
Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Surely it was not so that men could put their faith in that which they could see, and destroy the faith principle.
Eze 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
Exodus 33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
Abel , believed God and it was imputed to him as a righteousness not of himself .Would he be the first recorded case of a Gentile?
What was the purpose of changing the name of the unbeliever Abram which means exalted father( singular) in respect to one nation ,and changing it to Abraham, the father of many nations giving rise to the word denominations ?
Ch12,
This passage follows chs 4-11,
In ch 9:2, at the 5th trumpet the abyss is opened.
In ch 11:7 the beast that comes out of the abyss kills the 2 witnesses.
Chs 12 & 13, are a more "detailed" description of the role of Satan (5th trump) and the beast (11:7).
It would answer a question that would reasonably be asked after reading the story of the 2 witnesses,
How is Satan (5th trump) related to the beast (11:7) who kills the 2 witnesses?
What is their relationship to Israel and each other?
=====================================
Rev 12:1, We agree that the woman is Israel,
"Clothed with the sun", God's glory surrounding Israel, "covering" her, God's spiritual light to the world, His "Word", The Law of Moses.
"The moon under her feet", The moon reflects the light of the sun, (the light of the Law), the prophets "support" her "standing" with God.
The sun and the moon often appear together in the sky, But at night when the law of God (sun) is hidden, the prophets (moon) give light
in O.T. times the Prophets,
Not just during the time of the Law of Moses, But Adam and others were prophets in the fact they passed on the laws and prophecies of God concerning the Messiah and the resurrection.
"Upon her head a crown of 12 stars", When God looks down her from His throne He sees the children of Jacob, the "crown" of the twelve tribes, government,
V 2 This shows Israel pre-Messiah, the natural branches (important)
V 3 The dragon,
The dragon is seen after the sign of the woman, this shows that the woman existed before the Beast of Rome. She didn't come before the Dragon, but before the dragon was "embodied" in the beast. Remember that if we connect this to the Dan 7 passage this beast of Rome is only one in a series of beasts. The spirit of Satan (the dragon)was in all of the "beasts".
Satan here is called the dragon.
This is a name that is not often used for him. It implies that this is the most ancient of God's enemies. It would be understood that it refers to the time before he was "cursed" in the Garden of Eden, where the serpent was to go on his belly Gen 3:14. It may be assumed that before that time he had legs (dragon), but now he has been put in a position further away from God.
The idea that this "spirit" (dragon) is the most ancient of enemies can also be seen in the creation story in the darkness and light, order and chaos, and their mixing and dividing.
He has "7 heads and 10 horns", The spirit of Satan (no love), was at this time embodied in Rome, in parallel with the beast of ch 17.
"7 diadems", "crowns" of victory, 7 complete, each head was victorious over Israel
V 4 "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven", drags, swept.
The woman has 12 stars on her crown, she is seen in heaven, so it could mean 1/3 of Israel,
But the dragon is thrown down in v 9 so it could mean the angels who were cast out of heaven with Satan on the Day of Pentecost.
But see how the stars are cast down before the dragon waits for the woman to give birth. So It could show the conquest and domination of the Roman Empire, (dragon with 7 heads etc.), and the killing of Israel, pre-Messiah.
"Cast them to the earth", The stars lose their position in their relationship with God,
They are dragged, thrown, swept, by the tail and cast to the "earth", Something that the "stars" resisted, didn't want to happen. It took a war and a binding to cast Satan down on the Day of Pentecost, 12:7-9, and His angels are cast out with him. He is seen as a star "falling" (as if he were pushed out) in Rev 9:1.
The stars in the crown of the woman in heaven, are thrown from heaven to the earth, which could mean that they die spiritually, that they are "cut off" from Israel and their heavenly position.
There is similar symbolism in Rev 8:12, where a third part of the "stars" are smitten. Here the stars are linked to the sun (Law of Moses), and the moon (the prophets),
In this case the stars would be "guiding lights" that shine to guide people when the sun and moon are darkened, that would be great teachers, leaders, and learned people, people who give direction to God in times of darkness, Israel.
To maintain the symbolic interpretation I'll have have to go with , the stars are Israel, from the crown of the woman.
This passage follows chs 4-11,
In ch 9:2, at the 5th trumpet the abyss is opened.
In ch 11:7 the beast that comes out of the abyss kills the 2 witnesses.
Chs 12 & 13, are a more "detailed" description of the role of Satan (5th trump) and the beast (11:7).
It would answer a question that would reasonably be asked after reading the story of the 2 witnesses,
How is Satan (5th trump) related to the beast (11:7) who kills the 2 witnesses?
What is their relationship to Israel and each other?
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Rev 12:1, We agree that the woman is Israel,
"Clothed with the sun", God's glory surrounding Israel, "covering" her, God's spiritual light to the world, His "Word", The Law of Moses.
"The moon under her feet", The moon reflects the light of the sun, (the light of the Law), the prophets "support" her "standing" with God.
The sun and the moon often appear together in the sky, But at night when the law of God (sun) is hidden, the prophets (moon) give light
in O.T. times the Prophets,
Not just during the time of the Law of Moses, But Adam and others were prophets in the fact they passed on the laws and prophecies of God concerning the Messiah and the resurrection.
"Upon her head a crown of 12 stars", When God looks down her from His throne He sees the children of Jacob, the "crown" of the twelve tribes, government,
V 2 This shows Israel pre-Messiah, the natural branches (important)
V 3 The dragon,
The dragon is seen after the sign of the woman, this shows that the woman existed before the Beast of Rome. She didn't come before the Dragon, but before the dragon was "embodied" in the beast. Remember that if we connect this to the Dan 7 passage this beast of Rome is only one in a series of beasts. The spirit of Satan (the dragon)was in all of the "beasts".
Satan here is called the dragon.
This is a name that is not often used for him. It implies that this is the most ancient of God's enemies. It would be understood that it refers to the time before he was "cursed" in the Garden of Eden, where the serpent was to go on his belly Gen 3:14. It may be assumed that before that time he had legs (dragon), but now he has been put in a position further away from God.
The idea that this "spirit" (dragon) is the most ancient of enemies can also be seen in the creation story in the darkness and light, order and chaos, and their mixing and dividing.
He has "7 heads and 10 horns", The spirit of Satan (no love), was at this time embodied in Rome, in parallel with the beast of ch 17.
"7 diadems", "crowns" of victory, 7 complete, each head was victorious over Israel
V 4 "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven", drags, swept.
The woman has 12 stars on her crown, she is seen in heaven, so it could mean 1/3 of Israel,
But the dragon is thrown down in v 9 so it could mean the angels who were cast out of heaven with Satan on the Day of Pentecost.
But see how the stars are cast down before the dragon waits for the woman to give birth. So It could show the conquest and domination of the Roman Empire, (dragon with 7 heads etc.), and the killing of Israel, pre-Messiah.
"Cast them to the earth", The stars lose their position in their relationship with God,
They are dragged, thrown, swept, by the tail and cast to the "earth", Something that the "stars" resisted, didn't want to happen. It took a war and a binding to cast Satan down on the Day of Pentecost, 12:7-9, and His angels are cast out with him. He is seen as a star "falling" (as if he were pushed out) in Rev 9:1.
The stars in the crown of the woman in heaven, are thrown from heaven to the earth, which could mean that they die spiritually, that they are "cut off" from Israel and their heavenly position.
There is similar symbolism in Rev 8:12, where a third part of the "stars" are smitten. Here the stars are linked to the sun (Law of Moses), and the moon (the prophets),
In this case the stars would be "guiding lights" that shine to guide people when the sun and moon are darkened, that would be great teachers, leaders, and learned people, people who give direction to God in times of darkness, Israel.
To maintain the symbolic interpretation I'll have have to go with , the stars are Israel, from the crown of the woman.
I see that a little differently.
The woman represents the one bride of Christ. She is identified by more than one descriptor. She can be called Israel pertaining to a born again Jew.(not of the flesh) seeing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply are not members as His eternal bride.
She is also named by God the promised new name, Christians, which simply means residents of the heavenly city of Christ, the new Jerusalem. A city as the residents of coming down on the last day prepared as His one bride. The stars simply represent the believers., His bride . This is Old testament as well as the new. She is shown clothed in the righteousness of Christ in God represented by the Sun, as a source of light. The Sun and moon together are used as time keepers, under her feet indicate it is the end of time.
God puts no difference (not one) between and outward Jew of the flesh, and a Gentile, purifying both hearts that are deceitful and desperately wicked, as in who could know them , as the receiving of His Holy Spirit by a work of His faith, or labor of His love. God alone knows the hearts of all men (1 Kings 8:39) and therefore is able to transform them as he forms Christ in us.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between “us and them”, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8
The woman represents the one bride of Christ. She is identified by more than one descriptor. She can be called Israel pertaining to a born again Jew.(not of the flesh) seeing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply are not members as His eternal bride.
She is also named by God the promised new name, Christians, which simply means residents of the heavenly city of Christ, the new Jerusalem. A city as the residents of coming down on the last day prepared as His one bride. The stars simply represent the believers., His bride . This is Old testament as well as the new. She is shown clothed in the righteousness of Christ in God represented by the Sun, as a source of light. The Sun and moon together are used as time keepers, under her feet indicate it is the end of time.
God puts no difference (not one) between and outward Jew of the flesh, and a Gentile, purifying both hearts that are deceitful and desperately wicked, as in who could know them , as the receiving of His Holy Spirit by a work of His faith, or labor of His love. God alone knows the hearts of all men (1 Kings 8:39) and therefore is able to transform them as he forms Christ in us.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between “us and them”, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8