Ask a "Messianic/Hebrew Rooter" (AMA)

[eternally-gratefull]

I have no problem with an individual's choice as to how they worship or where they worship. Where I do have a problem is having that same individual telling me and others that my personal choice and beliefs are wrong and I should return to a
system of works and spiritual bondage because they have some superior knowledge of Scripture and infer that I am heading for damnation because I do not share their views. This thread and others like it are from people who are ''trying to take away my faith,my identity, my hopes and beliefs'' from me

Paul said he was all things to all people. When he was with the jews, He kept the ceremonies and rituals of the law. When he was with the gentiles. He did not keep them. He acted like a gentile would.

He never imposed jewish belief on anyone, and in fact called peter out when peter offended gentiles by refusing to eat their food if a jew was within eyesite.

if A jew, or child if Israel wants to keep traditions to fell close to their cuture and people (but not to earn salvation) that's fine, If I was with them, I would join,

But if they do it then demand everyone do this or they are not godly and in sin, well then you have issues.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think those on the opposite side of the Torah-keeping discussion do very similar things though (replace the system of works with a system of non-works)?

I've seen it both ways.

I agree

we see that with people demanding we be baptized. Show up in our sunday finest or else, Play only certain musical instruments, Do not do anything on sunday, for that's the lords day. and many many new traditions relegated just to the church. and judge anyone who does not do as they do.

both are serious problems in my view

 

[tanakh]

wanted to share this thought that just came to me.

what if one were a real Hebrew, God's chosen above all peoples and God let you understand
that you were deliberately blinded by Him so that the Gentiles could be brought into His Holy family?

I would want to jump right up to the heavens and worship/kiss my Saviour...

Firstly define a real Hebrew I have never met one. The people known as Jews never call themselves Hebrews and after some 2000 years of intermarriage I doubt that it would be easy to find one that Jesus and the Disciples would recognise.
Paul traces our spiritual ancestry to Abraham. he wasn't a Hebrew either he was born in Ur.

Gods whole purpose for Israel was for them to bring Gentiles to God. The nation rejected Christ but some individuals didn't and were used by God to continue that purpose. The Disciples and Paul in particular were those people.

 

[LaurenTM]

Do you think those on the opposite side of the Torah-keeping discussion do very similar things though (replace the system of works with a system of non-works)?

I've seen it both ways.

well, that IS the hue and cry and if they think (whoever they are) think it is business as usual after 'accepting' Christ?

my question is, where is the Holy Spirit?

NO ONE is born again without the Holy Spirit

that is like asking a woman to conceive all by herself

it is SO simple...people want all their little knickers washed, folded and put neatly in a drawer

yeah

READ the Bible...is that how it works?

I can see Abraham with his hand over his eyes to shield them from the sun....watching 3 strangers approach his camp

when God approaches YOUR camp, you will know it...don't know I'm talking about? keep doing what you are doing but don't say no one ever poked you

his works were obedience...but his righteousness was his faith...in GOD...not his works

anybody capeesh?


disclaimer: not meant as a jab at anyone or to disparage, but I see some rather duplistic ways of posting here...fence straddlers who either do not want to offend or wish to appease people

 

[pottersclay]

well, that IS the hue and cry and if they think (whoever they are) think it is business as usual after 'accepting' Christ?

my question is, where is the Holy Spirit?

NO ONE is born again without the Holy Spirit

that is like asking a woman to conceive all by herself

it is SO simple...people want all their little knickers washed, folded and put neatly in a drawer

yeah

READ the Bible...is that how it works?

I can see Abraham with his hand over his eyes to shield them from the sun....watching 3 strangers approach his camp

when God approaches YOUR camp, you will know it...don't know I'm talking about? keep doing what you are doing but don't say no one ever poked you

his works were obedience...but his righteousness was his faith...in GOD...not his works

anybody capeesh?

And there we have my sissy again guarding the shepherds door....what a blessing. The word tells us old things have passed away all things become new.
Now Paul had a neat thing going on with the law keepers, he wanted to provoke them to jealousy. Imo it worked.
We are new creatures in Christ Jesus...New like never before seen ..New. what's so hard about that?
It gets pretty tiresome to explain time after time but we Wii not faint in doing good.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the total package of redemption. His saving grace has no limits, he is that which is perfect.
In his work we rest. He was and is the ultimate sacrifice so he is our Passover. He is first fruits, no guile was found in him so he is our leaven. He is in us as we are in him so here we tabernacle. He is the light of the world.
He is the beginning and end of our faith, he is holy so we are made holy, we were given his righteousness.
We are sealed by the holy spirit which he sent . We have died with Christ and are raised in him. How much more do you want for free? For by grace you are saved through faith and that was supplied. It cost you nothing it cost Christ everything. So how valued are you saint, can anyone add to the work of Christ to make it more perfect? What did Jesus lack? Nothing.
The Lord said ' this is my son hear him' .......this is my son in whom I am well pleased.

disclaimer: not meant as a jab at anyone or to disparage, but I see some rather duplistic ways of posting here...fence straddlers who either do not want to offend or wish to appease people

.....................

 

[oldethennew]

tanakh,

you know perfectly that God's Chosen are blinded until His fullness of the gentles are
brought in....

it ss so easy to Love all of Yeshua's people, it is a free gift at no cost to anyone...

 

[Dan_473]

It might sound like a cop-out, but I don't know for sure, so I'm not going to take a stance on that one. When it comes to matters of salvation, I tend to stay out of it, trusting God will take care of that according to His own wisdom.



Same thing as above.

what Gospel do you preach?

1 TIMOTHY 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.


if someone comes to you and asks how they can be saved, what do you tell them?

 

[Dan_473]

I don't agree with that perspective, since that approach and attitude means none of Jesus' words are for the gentiles, and that none of Paul's words are for the Jews.

no, not none... just remember the context of each writer.

 

[tanakh]

tanakh,

you know perfectly that God's Chosen are blinded until His fullness of the gentles are
brought in....

it ss so easy to Love all of Yeshua's people, it is a free gift at no cost to anyone...

There is a lot I could say about your post connected with Dispensationalism and everything associated with it but it would take too long and be unappropriate for this thread. What I will say is I do not hate Jewish people. This thread is not about them. It is about a cultic movement that is attempting to convert Christians to a works based theology that is neither Christian nor Jewish. Most of those caught up in it are not even Jewish. If the roots movement were trying to convert real Jews to Christianity I would applaud it. But they are not doing this. Instead they are trying to pull Gentile Christians away from Churches.

 

[tanakh]

In my last post I said that this thread was not about Jewish people but on reflection I feel I should explain why it is so difficult for them to accept the Gospel and Christ. It can be summed up by one word PERSECUTION. Jews equate Christians with persecution, by those claiming to be Christian. Their experience at the hands of the Crusaders who burned men women and children inside their Synagogues to the Spanish Inquisition when they had the choice of exile, conversion or death on to the Russian Ghettos and the horrors of the Holocaust has made them reject anything connected with Christ and Christianity
So its not surprising that they are so resistant to the gospel.

 

[Laish]

In my last post I said that this thread was not about Jewish people but on reflection I feel I should explain why it is so difficult for them to accept the Gospel and Christ. It can be summed up by one word PERSECUTION. Jews equate Christians with persecution, by those claiming to be Christian. Their experience at the hands of the Crusaders who burned men women and children inside their Synagogues to the Spanish Inquisition when they had the choice of exile, conversion or death on to the Russian Ghettos and the horrors of the Holocaust has made them reject anything connected with Christ and Christianity
So its not surprising that they are so resistant to the gospel.

You do have a good point there. I also believe that they (people of Jewish beliefs and ancestry ) think that Christians are trying to some how take their history and culture from them . Their culture is very important to them . It's what they believe sets them apart from the world . They seem less dedicated to God , than to who they are . To them if they stop being Jewish a part of them as a people will die . It's hard to explain . What I have heard several Jews say when the topic of evangelism comes up . To me they seem less concerned about knowing more about God than preserving their history . Thats a shame .
Blessings
Bill

 

[KohenMatt]

what Gospel do you preach?

1 TIMOTHY 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.


if someone comes to you and asks how they can be saved, what do you tell them?

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

 

[LaurenTM]

thank you mr Potters

clay is malleable...however, when it is baked, it becomes brittle and if you drop it? that's all she wrote..

we need to stay malleable

pottersclay


Now Paul had a neat thing going on with the law keepers, he wanted to provoke them to jealousy. Imo it worked.
We are new creatures in Christ Jesus...New like never before seen ..New. what's so hard about that?
It gets pretty tiresome to explain time after time but we Wii not faint in doing good.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the total package of redemption. His saving grace has no limits, he is that which is perfect.
In his work we rest. He was and is the ultimate sacrifice so he is our Passover. He is first fruits, no guile was found in him so he is our leaven. He is in us as we are in him so here we tabernacle. He is the light of the world.
He is the beginning and end of our faith, he is holy so we are made holy, we were given his righteousness.
We are sealed by the holy spirit which he sent . We have died with Christ and are raised in him. How much more do you want for free? For by grace you are saved through faith and that was supplied. It cost you nothing it cost Christ everything. So how valued are you saint, can anyone add to the work of Christ to make it more perfect? What did Jesus lack? Nothing.
The Lord said ' this is my son hear him' .......this is my son in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Dan_473]

did anyone ever stop and think how it would feel if people tried to take away
your Faith, your identity, your hopes and beliefs from you when you Love and Honor
your Saviour but may have made some wrong choices in who you hooked-up with in the process,
but you were secure in your own personal Love and Faith, but maybe Jesus hadn't taken you out of
where you started or maybe He hasn't gotten around to pulling you out of a deceived church or an
imitation pastor/leader- YET???

I have been in a few, and after conversion I am able to look-back and see where they were in great
error, but Jesus was still with me, guiding me where He wanted me to be, and it is pure joy and
appreciation and pure Love to understand and embrace this wonder..

please honor and respect people's feelings and hearts, they to are on their journey, just as you are...

as long as they are truly seeking Jesus Christ, where they are is no business of ours...

If someone is teaching the Gospel, just a different flavor, that's great.

if someone is preaching a different Gospel, that's not good.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you think those on the opposite side of the Torah-keeping discussion do very similar things though (replace the system of works with a system of non-works)?

I've seen it both ways.

that's interesting... "replace the system of works with a system of non-works"

I assumed that's what God did

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [j]from faith to faith; as it is written, “[k]But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+1&version=NASB


let's talk about that!

 

[KohenMatt]

that's interesting... "replace the system of works with a system of non-works"

I assumed that's what God did

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [j]from faith to faith; as it is written, “[k]But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+1&version=NASB


let's talk about that!

I think there are folks on 1 side of the Torah-keeping discussion who believe that amount of man's works are what define and gauges a proper relationship with God. I also think there are folks on the other side of the discussion who believe that man's works take away from a proper relationship with God.

Both sides can be equally adamant about speaking against the other side.

 

[KohenMatt]

(Please disregard the preceding post. A 5 minute time frame isn't enough for editing.)

that's interesting... "replace the system of works with a system of non-works"

I assumed that's what God did

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [j]from faith to faith; as it is written, “[k]But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+1&version=NASB


let's talk about that!

I think there are folks on 1 side of the Torah-keeping discussion who believe that amount of man's works are what define and gauges a proper relationship with God. I also think there are folks on the other side of the discussion who believe that man's works take away from a proper relationship with God.

Both sides can be equally adamant about speaking against the other side.

The proper balance though, is recognizing it isn't by works that we are saved but that once we are, God wants His people to live in a way honoring to Him.

 

[Dan_473]

[FONT=&]Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [/FONT][FONT=&]9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [/FONT][FONT=&]10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."[/FONT]

yes... how does a person access God's grace?

 

[KohenMatt]

yes... how does a person access God's grace?

What do you mean?

 

[Dan_473]

(Please disregard the preceding post. A 5 minute time frame isn't enough for editing.)



I think there are folks on 1 side of the Torah-keeping discussion who believe that amount of man's works are what define and gauges a proper relationship with God. I also think there are folks on the other side of the discussion who believe that man's works take away from a proper relationship with God.

Both sides can be equally adamant about speaking against the other side.

The proper balance though, is recognizing it isn't by works that we are saved but that once we are, God wants His people to live in a way honoring to Him.

(I hear you about the five-minute rule)

so in your view,
Torah-keeping is not related in any way to salvation.

but once saved, Torah-keeping is a more honorable way to live in God's eyes...

am I understanding you?