The role of the law in the covenant. Galatians.

[Grace777x70]

Have we ever read where Jesus said that the priests who stand in the temple - break the Sabbath which is in the Law?...or that David and his men ate of the bread which was in the temple?

Matthew 12:2-6 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

[SUP]3 [/SUP] But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

[SUP]4 [/SUP] how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Why were the priest not breaking the Sabbath law - because they were in the temple. Why did David be able to eat of the bread? Because he was in the temple.

This is why the true believer in Christ will not be breaking any Sabbath law because we are in the temple. Know you not that you are the temple of God?

Those that are in the temple are not breaking the Sabbath law by doing work because we are in Christ. He is the true temple of God as we are in union with Him and are one in the spirit.

Until we understand the reality of our union with Christ and what that means - we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging the law for Christ.

 

[gotime]

Have we ever read where Jesus said that the priests who stand in the temple - break the Sabbath which is in the Law?...or that David and his men ate of the bread which was in the temple?

Matthew 12:2-6 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

[SUP]3 [/SUP] But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

[SUP]4 [/SUP] how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Why were the priest not breaking the Sabbath law - because they were in the temple. Why did David be able to eat of the bread? Because he was in the temple.

This is why the true believer in Christ will not be breaking any Sabbath law because we are in the temple. Know you not that you are the temple of God?

Those that are in the temple are not breaking the Sabbath law by doing work because we are in Christ. He is the true temple of God as we are in union with Him and are one in the spirit.

Until we understand the reality of our union with Christ and what that means - we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging the law for Christ.

I will not get into the Sabbath aspect of this as I don't want this to turn into a Sabbath thread. But your last point that says this:

"we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging the law for Christ."

Which suggests that those who keep the law are trying to do it by themselves. Have you not read the points that have gone before. You mistake the power of God in the Christian as works based salvation. This makes me question if you understand the union with Christ and what that does.

Does a Christian who does not kill show that he is living by works of the law or that Christ is in them and they are free from sin in Christ by faith?

The exact same thing applies to the Sabbath. So it is an error of thinking to suggest that just because someone keeps the Sabbath that they are gone back to the law. It is inconsistent to suggest that one can keep the other ones and be in christ yet it is not so with the Sabbath.

 

[Grandpa]

I will not get into the Sabbath aspect of this as I don't want this to turn into a Sabbath thread. But your last point that says this:

"we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging the law for Christ."

Which suggests that those who keep the law are trying to do it by themselves. Have you not read the points that have gone before. You mistake the power of God in the Christian as works based salvation. This makes me question if you understand the union with Christ and what that does.

Does a Christian who does not kill show that he is living by works of the law or that Christ is in them and they are free from sin in Christ by faith?

The exact same thing applies to the Sabbath. So it is an error of thinking to suggest that just because someone keeps the Sabbath that they are gone back to the law. It is inconsistent to suggest that one can keep the other ones and be in christ yet it is not so with the Sabbath.

The exact same thing cannot be applied to the sabbath. Observing a saturday sabbath is a work of the flesh. It can be fulfilled by your carnal understanding and your works.

Loving someone by the power of Christ in us is a totally different thing.

If you are still working at the law in your own understanding then you are working according to the flesh. It is really that simple. Why you fail to grasp this concept is because you want to fail to grasp it.

Also the law being transgressed isn't the only way someone sins. Whatever is not of faith is also sin.

What is the only thing we can do or produce to not transgress the law or faith in Christ? There is only one answer for both and it involves being dead to the law and alive to Christ.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The exact same thing cannot be applied to the Sabbath. Observing a saturday sabbath is a work of the flesh. It can be fulfilled by your carnal understanding and your works.

And here I imagined that it was an instruction from God

 

[ZEEK]

The very fact that Jesus had to die is proof that the law can not be changed. If it were simply a matter of removing the law then God would never have given it in the first place. Or at least simply removed it later. But as the law is as eternal as God is Himself so the solution is not to get rid of the law but to get rid of sin/transgression of the law. This is done through Jesus and faith in His ability to change our hearts.

The whole reason God changes our hearts is because the issue is sin, not the law. The law points out sin but cannot Save. Jesus saves from sin. those who are saved do not break the law.

The Law is not eternal. NOT AT ALL!!

It was added in the first place, and it will be removed in the last place, because when we are all perfect the law will be utterly irrelevant

 

[Ahwatukee]

When Paul is saying anything about the law of how we are not saved by the righteousness of the law,he is speaking in a fleshy perspective,for the flesh cannot keep the law perfectly,which is the moral laws,laws of love.

When Paul is saying we are not under the law,he is speaking in a spiritual perspective,being led of the Spirit,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

When Paul say not saved by works,he is speaking in a fleshy perspective of people doing works apart from Christ,like the Gentiles false religions,and apart from the Spirit,where James talks in a spiritual perspective,faith with out works is dead,and we are justified by works,and not faith alone.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,and the commandment holy,just,and good.

The two greatest commandments love God,and love people,which the ten commandments include those 2 greatest laws,and is spiritual,and anything spiritual we have to obey.

People should understand when Paul is speaking from a fleshy perspective,or before Christ,and a spiritual perspective,by the Spirit,and do not confuse them.

By a fleshy perspective,we are not saved by works,and we are not saved by the righteousness of the law,and by a spiritual perspective,not under the law,and a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If we are led of the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,so we will obey the law,the spiritual laws,therefore the law cannot touch us for prosecution,not you are not under the law as if it does not apply,for we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law by the Spirit.

Forgive me Mpaper345, but all you're doing is the same thing that everyone else does, which is to reinterpret what the law is so that they bring us right back around to being under the law.

The law is exactly what it means, everything that God gave to Moses to give to Israel. The whole enchilada. Not the sacrificial law, the food law, the laws of keeping feast, Sabbaths, but the whole thing.

The law is what gives sin its power. As Paul said, "I would not have known what coveting was until the law said 'do not covet.' " As a result, the law produced in me every covetous desire and I died. When Jesus said, "don't think that I have come to abolish the law, I have not come to abolish but to fulfill it. Meaning that he came to meet its requirements in the flesh, something that we who are sold to sin, could not do. Now, by believers trusting in Christ as the One who met the requirements of the law and the One who paid the penalty for our sins, we are free in Christ. For the requirements of the law have now been satisfied and the wrath that we deserve has also been satisfied.

"Law Killer" is what I wrote in the margin of my Bible across from Acts 15:5-11 and should end the controversy:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

When these Pharisees say that the Gentile believers must be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses, they are referring to the entire law of Moses. All 600 plus.

The answer to what the Pharisees were claiming is as follows:

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Regarding the above, Peter was speaking about when he was sent to Cornelius' household, who was a Gentile centurion, to preach the gospel to him and his family. While Peter was still speaking, without any laying on of hands, without being circumcised, without being baptized, without being under the law, those who believed the message in their heart began to speak in languages and prophesy by receiving the Holy Spirit. As Peter said, God purified their hearts by faith and not by obeying the law or even promising to do so. And regarding the law of Moses, Peter says to the Pharisees who had been proclaiming circumcision and obedience to the law as a means of salvation, "why do you test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?"

The answer to the Pharisees question:

"No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Believers in Christ should not even be trying to meet the requirements of the law, but secure in knowing that Christ has accomplished it. If we are following Christ and are led by the Spirit, then will will be producing fruit, being transformed into His image. Believers are dead to the law. We are no longer committed to that marriage. And since that husband has died, just like with the law of marriage, since we died with Christ, that marriage contract of the law is no longer valid for those who believe.

 

[gotime]

The exact same thing cannot be applied to the sabbath. Observing a saturday sabbath is a work of the flesh. It can be fulfilled by your carnal understanding and your works.

Loving someone by the power of Christ in us is a totally different thing.

If you are still working at the law in your own understanding then you are working according to the flesh. It is really that simple. Why you fail to grasp this concept is because you want to fail to grasp it.

Also the law being transgressed isn't the only way someone sins. Whatever is not of faith is also sin.

What is the only thing we can do or produce to not transgress the law or faith in Christ? There is only one answer for both and it involves being dead to the law and alive to Christ.

Brother we are people who follow the word of God. I see nothing here but the reasoning of man. Either back up what you are saying or don't bother up to you.

And where do you get off calling the law of God carnal when the word says of it:

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

and Again:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So the word of God would disagree with your opinion above.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The exact same thing applies to the Sabbath. So it is an error of thinking to suggest that just because someone keeps the Sabbath that they are gone back to the law. It is inconsistent to suggest that one can keep the other ones and be in christ yet it is not so with the Sabbath.

It is only an issue if one is keeping the Sabbath or any other part of the law, as a requirement for salvation. Otherwise, if a person only eats vegetables, then he/she can do that with God's blessings. If another believers faith allows him/her to ear everything, then they do so with God's blessings as well. If a person wants to keep the Sabbath on a particular day, they can do that. To another person everyday is alike and they have God's blessing as well.

It is only when a person attempts to keep those things as a requirement for salvation that it is detrimental to their eternal life. And that because by trusting in the keeping of those things, they are not trusting in Christ who fulfilled it on our behalf. They are trying to enter in by their own efforts.

 

[gotime]

It is only an issue if one is keeping the Sabbath or any other part of the law, as a requirement for salvation. Otherwise, if a person only eats vegetables, then he/she can do that with God's blessings. If another believers faith allows him/her to ear everything, then they do so with God's blessings as well. If a person wants to keep the Sabbath on a particular day, they can do that. To another person everyday is alike and they have God's blessing as well.

It is only when a person attempts to keep those things as a requirement for salvation that it is detrimental to their eternal life. And that because by trusting in the keeping of those things, they are not trusting in Christ who fulfilled it on our behalf. They are trying to enter in by their own efforts. [/I][/COLOR]

No works saves a person. Jesus saves.

 

[gotime]

The Law is not eternal. NOT AT ALL!!

It was added in the first place, and it will be removed in the last place, because when we are all perfect the law will be utterly irrelevant

I was not speaking about the physical law. of course the writing on stone was added. But the law of love which is on that stone will always be through eternity. There was never a time and never will be a time that love is done away with.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The Law is not eternal. NOT AT ALL!!

It was added in the first place, and it will be removed in the last place, because when we are all perfect the law will be utterly irrelevant

The word describe the law as a marriage contract between God and his people. Irrelevant????? I think not......

 

[gotime]

Is the Sabbath a carnal work as has been suggested above?

What does the word say?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, Holy, Just and good. We know which law is being referred to here by looking at verse 7.

David said of the commandments of God:

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

So no the law, (Sabbath also as it is part of that law), is not carnal or a flesh work. No more than baptism is a carnal flesh work.

The word of God is clear and there is not a single scripture that will say otherwise.

What then is a carnal work according to the bible?

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. So the Carnal mind is against the law of God. So what do you think then when someone tries to tell you that gods law is a carnal work and does not need to be kept? Clearly they are speaking carnally because there mind is not subject to Gods law.

 

[ZEEK]

I was not speaking about the physical law. of course the writing on stone was added. But the law of love which is on that stone will always be through eternity. There was never a time and never will be a time that love is done away with.

Yes,
that is why the tablets were both broken by Moses, to show the broken hearts of Jesus and his father.

 

[ZEEK]

Romans 7 is Paul speaking as one under the Law, i.e. as a carnal man though.

 

[gotime]

What are the three functions of the law?

1, The first function of the law which was written down is to define sin and point out sin and to give us an understanding and knowledge of sin.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

and again:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

2, The second function of the law is a custodian that shuts all under guilt and condemnation leaving no way to escape until it brings us to Christ the we may be justified by faith.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


3, The third function of the law is that it bears witness or confirms that someone has received the gift of righteousness though Christ Jesus which is received by faith demanded by the law.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Most understand the first two to some degree but do not understand the third one.

The law is a witness that one has righteousness by faith. How is that? Paul has told us in the chapter before lets look:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Notice that Jew who has the law or Gentile who is without the law both will pay for sin. Sin is transgression of the law. then He says:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Notice it is clear that it is the doers of the law that are justified. Paul is not here speaking of works based salvation. but rather making the point that those who are justified will actually keep the law. It is plain to see. But if it is not by works then how does one keep the law? Paul answers this question in the next verses:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Notice clearly that the Gentiles who do not have the law "do" by nature, do what? The things contained in the law. So they keep the law how?

Notice it says that them keeping the law shows that the law is written on their hearts. This is the work of God, the work of faith.






Then Paul goes on to illustrate how the Jews who have the law do not keep it and thus dishonour God.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?



The Gentiles who keep the law will judge the Jews who do not keep it.

So then the law will do one of two things. Before Christ it will point out your sin and hold you under condemnation.

After faith in Christ it will bare witness that you are made righteous by faith in Jesus as the new creation, the new man, the Spirit filled man will line up with that law showing the law written on their heart.

 

[gotime]

It must be pointed out that the new covenant is not a change of law, but rather a change of heart as it is written:

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

This was the problem with Israel, thus it is written:

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

David Got it when he pleaded after his sin:

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

And again:

Psa_40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

 

[ZEEK]

I disagree. The Gentiles are acting through Natural Law. Physis.

Natural law is most simply understood with the example of Homosexuality.

Many cultures understand this natural Law. It is not even necessary to teach anything spiritual, because it is a natural Law.

These are the natural laws Paul evinces:

[FONT=&quot]While you preach against stealing, do you steal?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 You that forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You that abhor idols, do you rob temples? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 You that boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?[/FONT]

Many cultures and religions forbid these things....yet we do not attribute them to works of the Holy Spirit. These are Natural laws.

IMO, God has layers of order.....otherwise the world would be totally chaotic and mad.

 

[Grace777x70]

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law.

Saying that some are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day and they have a very low respect for the work of Christ too - or maybe a better term would be a very low understanding of the work of Christ.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law ( Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( in God - NOT in the keeping of the law of Moses )

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Law is not eternal. NOT AT ALL!!

It was added in the first place, and it will be removed in the last place, because when we are all perfect the law will be utterly irrelevant

The historical parameters of the Law having been clearly defined in scripture. The Law "came in" (Rom. 5:20) historically, being "added" (Gal. 3:19), and was valid "until the seed should come" (Gal. 3:19), "that is, Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

Christ has come.

 

[Grace777x70]

We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.