To all the post trib and no trib believers.

dcontroversal · Jan 2, 2017

Make no mistake I agree....another proof that makes no sense and does not jive with the imminent return....I am 100% POST GREAT TRIBULATION/PRE-WRATH ingathering....To say the SAINTS that have war made against them, wore out and overcome by the beast are not church members totally contradicts the bible.....and for those who teach the imminent return and the HS being removed as the restrainer...how can one be saved during the tribulation period.....the truth is simple, there are numerous holes in their theories...the saints being killed are CHURCH MEMBERS.....

New American Standard Bible
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father

New American Standard Bible
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

New American Standard Bible
Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

New American Standard Bible
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ahwatukee · Jan 2, 2017

Morning D,

Those above do belong to the church, which is why I continue to point out the fact that they are never referred to as the ekklesia/church.

The last time the word church is used is at the end of chapter 3. Then in Rev.7:9-17 the elder asks John who this group is, which would infer that they are not the church. Why would he 1) introduce the church to John when he had already been told in chapter 1 to write letters to the seven churches and 2) John told the elder that he didn't know who they were. As I said, there is reason why the Holy Spirit stopped using the word ekklesia /church after the end of chapter 3 and it is not a coincidence, but purposeful. These are the deeper things within God's word.

How were the OT saints saved before the Spirit was indwelling?

Throughout the NT, the word ekklesia/church and hagios/saint is used interchangeably. But here in Revelation they are used independently, which is the clue. God is making a distinction here. It is not a coincidence that within chapters 1 thru 3 that the Spirit only used the word church and then within the same chapters you never see the word saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, you only see the word saints, but not the word church.

dcontroversal · Jan 2, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Sorry, not buying it..........God is consistent with the use of words.....The letter was written to 7 churches and even the faithful church is promised to be KEPT from the hour that will try the whole world...the word KEEP means to guard from loss or injury and does not mean remove.....the SAINTS in this age are saved, immersed believers identified with churches.....no where does the bible teach the removal of the Lord's churches prior to the GREAT TRIBULATION which is NOT the WRATH of God bro.

pottersclay · Jan 2, 2017

Sorry, not buying it..........God is consistent with the use of words

Exactly brother Ahwatukee point.

dcontroversal · Jan 2, 2017

pottersclay said:

Funny guy....he has jokes........we will see soon enough...........

samuel23 · Jan 2, 2017

Popeye,Ok, by your logic all the church(every last saved person) is taken out of the earth at the rapture ,and following that the Antichrist kills all the Christians refusing the mark. Think please, if all the Christians are taken out at the rapture that occurs just before the Antichrist takes over, then how can there be Christians for the Antichrist to kill during the tribulation? By your own scenario all the "soul winners" are gone, also it will be a time when no one wants to be a Christian(they will be killed), so where does all this GREAT NUMBER of Christians, so that no man can count them, come from? It is an impossibility! The great number of saints that came out of the tribulation, had to be saints BEFORE they went into the tribulation. Think please.

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2017

samuel23 said:

Did you know that in Iraq and Syria right now Christians are being hunted down and killed? At first they were given a chance to convert, leave or pay a tax. Now they are just being killed. ISIS is painting a red "N" in Arabic on their door which means, "I am a Christian" so that they can come back later and kill the whole family. I wear a black wrist band that says, "i-am-n" on one side and "I will not let them suffer in silence" on the other side. I got this wrist band from a "Voice of the Martyrs" conference a few months back. For more information go to: https://www.i-am-n.com/

Rev 13 paints a picture of a 7-headed beast empire supporting a false religion. These 7 heads represent 7 historic Satanic evil empires. The false religion has evolved in each empire but essentially remains the same with the same satanic symbols. The religion today is ISLAM. She is the one from the region of the lion, leopard, bear which Daniel tells us was Babylon, Persia and Greece. One of the heads (Ottoman Empire) was mortally wounded (in 1922) but came back to life on June 29, 2014. Everything discussed in Rev 13:1-5 is happening right now. Sometime around 11/29/2017 (THIS YEAR) the rest of the passage will begin.

Ahwatukee · Jan 2, 2017

Morning samuel23,

Why would they have to be saints prior to the tribulation? Why couldn't they becomes saints during the tribulation? You are partially correct in that, there most likely be those who claimed to be in Christ, that will have gone back into living according to the sinful nature that will have known the word of God regarding end-time events. Once the church is removed, they would realize what had happened and know what they are going to have to go through in order to be saved. During that time there is also going to be 144,000 servants of the Lord and the two witnesses who will take part in evangelizing the world during that time. There is also going to be an angel proclaiming the everlasting gospel to all of the people of the earth.

People are going to realize that they have entered into the time of God's wrath and will be willing rather to die, than to save their own lives, keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even unto death.

However, the beast doesn't kill all of them. For if they did, then there would be no Gentile believers to go into the millennial kingdom. Yet, according to the following scripture, we know that isn't truth:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above takes place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and at the on-set of the millennial kingdom. Therefore, not all of the great tribulation saints are killed.

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2017

The path to Salvation is NEVER works based (or punishment based). Salvation does not change. Since there is no removal of the church until the Second Coming, salvation is available to all.

No true believer is appointed to God's wrath. The scenario you are discussing isn't new. It's happening right now to 100s of thousand of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East only it isn't God's Wrath, it's Satan's Wrath.

God's wrath comes at the Second Coming and is not aimed at us.

There is no such thing as a "Christ reigning millennial period" on earth. The Millennial Kingdom is happening right now. It started at Pentecost and continues to this day in the spiritual realm.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

See that? The Kingdom is within you!!

When Christ returns, He ushers in the eternal state. He separates the nations, etc (Mat 25).

abcdef · Jan 2, 2017

Brother Plainword,

What does Rev 20 say, when the mill. comes to an end?

Magog surrounds Jerusalem?

Present day?

2nd and final resurrection about to happen?

Fire from heaven?

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2017

abcdef said:

Exactly. All the above is quickly approaching.

Compare with Zec 14:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

abcdef · Jan 2, 2017

PlainWord said:

Plague.....sickness.

----

Jerusalem and Israel are surrounded by Magog right now.

They will be closing in soon,

perhaps only months.

----

When Jerusalem falls,

then the stone will strike,

this planet is destroyed.

---

What passages in Rev. are parallel to ch 20? 7th trump?

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2017

abcdef said:

Absolutely, the 7th trumpet is a perfect match.

abcdef · Jan 2, 2017

PlainWord said:

Brother PlainWord,

Can't you see?

This is it!

---

Jesus returns for the Pentecost Kingdom at the resurrection,

3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the Kings of the East, Iran,

Then the stone strikes.

This may happen within months.

samuel23 · Jan 2, 2017

Ahwa, I think you are missing the point. People are saved because Christians hold meetings and witness to lost people...if the Christians are ALL gone there will be NO ONE to hold meetings and to witness to the lost. Besides that it will be very unpopular to be a Christian at that time. There will be 144,000 of Israel during that time who will witness for Jesus, however the bible does not say they will be making converts, neither does the bible say the 2 witness will make converts, they will simply be witness for Christ. The tribulation simply does not present a scenario where "a great multitude that no man could number" could possibly be saved.

Ahwatukee · Jan 2, 2017

samuel23 said:

I think that you are missing the point. Unbelievers will have previously heard that the event of the gathering of the church was coming. When they realize that millions and millions of people are missing, they are going to realize that it was true and they're are gong to want to know what to do in order to be saved. There will be people who claimed to be in Christ that will be here during that time because they will have not been ready when the Lord appeared and they will tell everyone what has happened. There will be a 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel, who will have acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah. The two witnesses will be here. So yeah, there will plenty of people, including the word of God here on earth for people during that time to know that they are now in the wrath of God and what they need to do in order to be saved. And there will be many who come to Christ during that time, which is represented by those in white robes which no man can count, the great tribulation saints.

popeye · Jan 3, 2017

samuel23 said:

Popeye,Ok, by your logic all the church(every last saved person) is taken out of the earth at the rapture ,and following that the Antichrist kills all the Christians refusing the mark. Think please, if all the Christians are taken out at the rapture that occurs just before the Antichrist takes over, then how can there be Christians for the Antichrist to kill during the tribulation? By your own scenario all the "soul winners" are gone, also it will be a time when no one wants to be a Christian(they will be killed), so where does all this GREAT NUMBER of Christians, so that no man can count them, come from? It is an impossibility! The great number of saints that came out of the tribulation, had to be saints BEFORE they went into the tribulation. Think please.

I have never believed that . Ever

You don't know what you are talking about.

Read mat 25. The first few verses.

popeye · Jan 3, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Morning samuel23,

Why would they have to be saints prior to the tribulation? Why couldn't they becomes saints during the tribulation? You are partially correct in that, there most likely be those who claimed to be in Christ, that will have gone back into living according to the sinful nature that will have known the word of God regarding end-time events. Once the church is removed, they would realize what had happened and know what they are going to have to go through in order to be saved. During that time there is also going to be 144,000 servants of the Lord and the two witnesses who will take part in evangelizing the world during that time. There is also going to be an angel proclaiming the everlasting gospel to all of the people of the earth.

People are going to realize that they have entered into the time of God's wrath and will be willing rather to die, than to save their own lives, keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even unto death.

However, the beast doesn't kill all of them. For if they did, then there would be no Gentile believers to go into the millennial kingdom. Yet, according to the following scripture, we know that isn't truth:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above takes place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and at the on-set of the millennial kingdom. Therefore, not all of the great tribulation saints are killed.

The word says that ALL take the mark,or die. Every man,woman and child.

Now,where does that leave ANY room for a Mass group of "gentile believers"

Aa far as no gentiles believers inhabiting the planet,there will be BILLIONS. They return with Jesus.

The Jews are protected supernatural.

The word says no Christians are protected. It even says the AC RECIEVES POWER TO OVERCOME THEM.

popeye · Jan 3, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

I think that you are missing the point. Unbelievers will have previously heard that the event of the gathering of the church was coming. When they realize that millions and millions of people are missing, they are going to realize that it was true and they're are gong to want to know what to do in order to be saved. There will be people who claimed to be in Christ that will be here during that time because they will have not been ready when the Lord appeared and they will tell everyone what has happened. There will be a 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel, who will have acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah. The two witnesses will be here. So yeah, there will plenty of people, including the word of God here on earth for people during that time to know that they are now in the wrath of God and what they need to do in order to be saved. And there will be many who come to Christ during that time, which is represented by those in white robes which no man can count, the great tribulation saints.

And notice all those in robes are dead. The great slaughter of those left behind,and anyone becoming saved has to renounce the AC ,by refusing the mark.

The mark is required.

The church is COMPLETELY wiped out,except for the Jews.

popeye · Jan 3, 2017

Rev 14 has 3 possible harvests.
During the GT
Now,that makes everything,I mean everything,postribs believe ,to be impossible

To all the post trib and no trib believers.

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