Wolf
Thank you Stone for reply.
Stones:
You're welcome
Stones: They. We don't know for sure how many, but there are those named in one verse, but 120 according to verse 15
received the baptism initially.
Wolf: Acts 1,4-5 is talking clearly about the 11 Apostels. You find this in vers 2 and 3! Where it is written that this 120 from
Vers 15 received the baptism initially?
Stones:
I agree it does look like Jesus is speaking just to the Apostles, but in verse 15, Luke says 120 were gathered and they all received the baptism.
Stones: well, yes, they were chosen to be His disciples. What does it matter that Thomas went to India?
Wolf: They were not only choosen to be his disciples, they were the Apostels. No other believers till today had this tasks
and authority which they got. (in my eyes is Paul the 12th Apostel and not Matthias)
stones:
I tend to think Paul would be the 12th too, but others say not. It's a non issue. One thing we do know is that Jesus Himself chose Paul, and the Apostles chose Matthias in a superstitious way.
Wolf
And this makes the different. When the first believers after pentecost came to faith (Acts 2, 41-43) they had not the
same power like the Apostles
Stones:
Jesus said His body would do greater things because He goes to the Father.
Wolf
I mentioned Thomas, because it seems that he travelled to the end of the World. (according acts 1,8)
Stones:
ok.
Wolf
Till today, nobody could do the miracles which the Apostel did! Ore do you know somebody in our days whose
shadow is falling onsomebody and he is healed? (Acts 5, 12-15)
Stones:
No, haven't heard.
Stones: please provide a list of what we shouldn't believe.
Wolf: Well, for shure we can not all convey what Jesus told to the Apostels! you want a list?
Mth.10, 1-14
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter you not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons: freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor bag for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet a staff: for the workman is worthy of his food. 11 And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till you go from there. 12 And when you come into a house, greet it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Acts 1, 4-5; John 16, 12-16; OK, its a small list! But for shure I could find more!
stones:
ok, so just to be sure I am understanding you....no miracles today, no evangelism, no 5 fold ministry in the church, no gifts, no healing, no raising the dead. Does your church not have a Pastor?
Stones: Water baptism which is after repentance from sin is the first baptism. What I said was that the disciples received
what Paul calls the Spirit of Christ after He breathed on them before His ascension. He said receive ye my Holy
Spirit. He was leaving, He anoints them and tells them to wait for the promise of the Father.
Wolf: When somebody receives the Holy Spirit? According my understanding when we are born again. And the water
baptism as a sign ore proof openly what happend already inward!
There is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit!
Where stands that Paul means this? In the text were Jesus blow to the Apostels Thomas was not among them. And
also the 120 had no blowing expierience! It was not the Holy Spirit they got, because before pentecost he was not
given.
Stones:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soeversins ye retain, they are retained.
Stones:
Its up to you whether you choose to believe this or not.
Wolf: From the text in Acts 2,1 it is not said that they are 120. It could be more than 120, because it is said
all.
Stones:
read verse 15
wolf
Also it is not said that the apostels where ever baptised. Maby they because they were special electet and be pured
in John 13.
stones:
John was preaching repent and baptizing. Preparing the way for the ministry of Jesus. I assume they were.
In acts then you find: 1. believing (born again) 2. Baptising with water.
When the first 3000 believers which were addet to the church in Acts 2,41, they had not the expierience with
speaking in tongues!!!! And it is also not mentioned that they later got a second baptism with the gift of speaking in
tongues.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
This scripture shows that a multitude of people all together can receive at one time.
The promise is to all.
Wolf
My own expierience is: I was born again first and got the Holy Spirit and also a gift. later I searched a church and was
baptised there.
Stones:
may i ask which gift?
Stones: Some receive in two experiences, and some in one. Both are seen in scripture.
Wolf: This makes no sences! Only if it is mentioned for a sign/proof for all. Acts 2 Jews (partfulfillment Joel 2), Acts 8
Gospel for Samaritians; Acts 10 Gospel for Heathen; Acts 19 Gospel for the Disciples of John the Baptist;
Apart from this 4 events, it is only said that people take the word of the Gospel, ore believed the word.
Stones:
That is not how I see in the scriptures.
Stones: What I see as the differences now....the Jews were taught of being born again. It's nothing new to them. They
were baptized in water after repentance and turning to God. That's what we see as the preparation for the Spirit of
Christ. John said one was coming that was greater than the baptism that he preached. This was for Jews only. And
some sects baptized daily for cleansing.
Wolf: The thought to be born again, was completely new for them. Read John 3! If Nicodemus had no Idea about it, than all
others also not.
stones:
we might think different things about many things if we didn't have history to teach us. We would understand much more if we knew all that the Jews did.
Thats the great thing about the web. We can research.
Wolf:
Of course the baptising from John the baptist was new and also to prepare for Jesus. And it was for jews only, But the
sending of the Holy Spirit was for all mankind!
Stones:
agree
Stones: Paul speaks to a group later in Acts who had only Johns baptism, so he rebaptizes them in the name of Jesus, and
then lays hands on them and they receive the baptism of Holy Spirit.
Wolf: Actually they were not rebaptised. The baptising from John had nothing to do with the baptising with the Holy Spirit.
They heared before nothing from pentecost!
stones:
Acts 19:5
Wolf:
And only the baptising with the Holy Spirit saves! So they needed this!
stones:
the blood sacrifice of Jesus and belief that He died and rose from the dead is our salvation. The baptism of Holy Spirit is for service, to do the same works.
If you say you live in Him, walk as He walked.
Stones: Today, we baptize in the name of Jesus after the preaching of the gospel, and some receive this baptism here at
the water, some have hands laid on them, and some no intervention of man at all.
Wolf: Well, the Holy Spirit comes into a life of somebody, after hearing and accpeting the word! John 1,12-13,
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on
his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is the first and only baptism with the Holy Spirit in which we are also sealed (ephesians chapter 1)
And this has nothing to do with the gift of speaking in tongues.
The doctrine with the 2nd baptising and as proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues is a man createt doctrine,
but not biblical!
Till know nobody could show me from the scripture that it is biblical!
Stones:
I can't make you believe, but I did point to the Word that says it's the will of God for all.
Stones: I see three levels in the temple. There actually were in the physical temple.
Passover
Pentecost
Tabernacles.
Wolf: Do you distinguish a different level christianity?
Stones:
I see that Passover represents salvation by hearing the gospel and believing. Pentecost as already discussed. Tabernacles as the fullness of His glory.
