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A
A valid question I asked the forum as well.
What do we do when we don't feel God is present, watching and protecting us?
What do we do when we are tempted?
Do we cry out for God's help and for Him to turn His face back to us?
Or do we indulge in our pet sins and vices?
I phrase it as "do you get drunk and beat your servants?"
However you show your immaturity by name calling and making false accusations. Perhaps you should pray before posting? Calling someone demonic is wrong. Especially when you created a straw man to burn. Your statement doesn't even closely resemble anyone's statements or beliefs,
What do we do when we don't feel God is present, watching and protecting us?
What do we do when we are tempted?
Do we cry out for God's help and for Him to turn His face back to us?
Or do we indulge in our pet sins and vices?
I phrase it as "do you get drunk and beat your servants?"
However you show your immaturity by name calling and making false accusations. Perhaps you should pray before posting? Calling someone demonic is wrong. Especially when you created a straw man to burn. Your statement doesn't even closely resemble anyone's statements or beliefs,
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B
Just merely on your last questions, my thoughts of that would be this, Jesus did not have to do what he did, the law was in Place, it was of his choice and from his love and compassion for mankind there's a choice for mankind as well..
Jesus wasn't a stranger to witnessing such brutal punishment of the Romans for that kind of brutality was the norm before Jesus was born, during his life and after... so if a person looks at why he might of sweated over it when he was praying in the garden about it, well wouldn't anybody of knowing of such things to come.. it is my opinion a basic reflection of the verse when he cried out to God on the cross, was that he was on the brink of a state of shock from that brutality and released the stress of it all..
As to who did it, well it wasn't God and it wasn't Jesus per say but of this,,
"please forgive them for they know not what they do"
Jesus wasn't a stranger to witnessing such brutal punishment of the Romans for that kind of brutality was the norm before Jesus was born, during his life and after... so if a person looks at why he might of sweated over it when he was praying in the garden about it, well wouldn't anybody of knowing of such things to come.. it is my opinion a basic reflection of the verse when he cried out to God on the cross, was that he was on the brink of a state of shock from that brutality and released the stress of it all..
As to who did it, well it wasn't God and it wasn't Jesus per say but of this,,
"please forgive them for they know not what they do"
I understand what you're saying and I think it is so hard to fathom because of its' unfairness. It really is unfair for a man to suffer for another mans crimes. We bristle at it and know that it's unfair.
But God didn't just allow it to happen. It wasn't any mans plan or of any coincidence. It wasn't something that God just permitted to happen. It was Gods' plan, from the very beginning. Men were doing what He WANTED them to do so we would be saved.
The whole bible is like God screaming to men, I LOVE YOU! I will take care of you. I know everything you need and I am your protector and safety. And men didn't hear and didn't trust and ignored Him. And after all He did to get them to see His love so He could do good for them and bless and save them from all this evil and futility, it's like He said, I know what I will do to show them they have to listen to me for me to keep them safe. I will die for them. It's almost as if He hung there, suffering so horribly that we can't even let ourselves truly focus on it or we will become ill, and as He suffered there it's like He said: NOW do you believe I love you? What more can I do to show you? Look at Me.
And we STILL don't trust that all He has said is true, because if we did, we wouldn't worry over money and IRA'S and our jobs. We would DO what He said and not worry because we would truly get the vision once and for all and no circumstance of life would sway us to mistrust and thinking that we must amass millions of dollars for old age. After all He has suffered to gain our unwavering trust instead of trust in what we see with our human eyes to be so and instead of trust in what the world says we must do if we don't want to eat catfood in old age, we STILL won't do as He says - not even in a temporal and temporary thing like money and provision. This very fact SHOWS us why He had to die to save us.
When each of us is ready, He will give us that true and unblurred vision of how awfully He suffered for love of us. When children grow older and stronger, we tell them more truth. Until then, they are too fragile to bear it. No one would let their five year old watch The Passion of the Christ, would they? And they wouldn't force them to sit and watch it. They would actually go to lengths to make sure they WOULDN'T see it until they were older and stronger.
So it would be wrong to force that on someone who would be harmed by what they're not ready to bear. So no one should argue forcefully with you about what they have seen by the Spirit, of what God suffered. It's not for arguing over. We need to share the vision we have gotten of this, but it would be wrong to try to force it on someone. Why would we do that when we ourselves barely survived the vision of it?
But God didn't just allow it to happen. It wasn't any mans plan or of any coincidence. It wasn't something that God just permitted to happen. It was Gods' plan, from the very beginning. Men were doing what He WANTED them to do so we would be saved.
The whole bible is like God screaming to men, I LOVE YOU! I will take care of you. I know everything you need and I am your protector and safety. And men didn't hear and didn't trust and ignored Him. And after all He did to get them to see His love so He could do good for them and bless and save them from all this evil and futility, it's like He said, I know what I will do to show them they have to listen to me for me to keep them safe. I will die for them. It's almost as if He hung there, suffering so horribly that we can't even let ourselves truly focus on it or we will become ill, and as He suffered there it's like He said: NOW do you believe I love you? What more can I do to show you? Look at Me.
And we STILL don't trust that all He has said is true, because if we did, we wouldn't worry over money and IRA'S and our jobs. We would DO what He said and not worry because we would truly get the vision once and for all and no circumstance of life would sway us to mistrust and thinking that we must amass millions of dollars for old age. After all He has suffered to gain our unwavering trust instead of trust in what we see with our human eyes to be so and instead of trust in what the world says we must do if we don't want to eat catfood in old age, we STILL won't do as He says - not even in a temporal and temporary thing like money and provision. This very fact SHOWS us why He had to die to save us.
When each of us is ready, He will give us that true and unblurred vision of how awfully He suffered for love of us. When children grow older and stronger, we tell them more truth. Until then, they are too fragile to bear it. No one would let their five year old watch The Passion of the Christ, would they? And they wouldn't force them to sit and watch it. They would actually go to lengths to make sure they WOULDN'T see it until they were older and stronger.
So it would be wrong to force that on someone who would be harmed by what they're not ready to bear. So no one should argue forcefully with you about what they have seen by the Spirit, of what God suffered. It's not for arguing over. We need to share the vision we have gotten of this, but it would be wrong to try to force it on someone. Why would we do that when we ourselves barely survived the vision of it?
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Do you know...you may have finally got me here...you didn't post the same words again for the umpteenth time, but went at it differently, and...I have finally seen what you mean now when you keep repeating that one same statement that I began to skip over many of your posts because of...I think you should stop copy pasting the same things over and over. It allows a way for someone having difficulty understanding to grasp it. I finally understand you because you said it differently. Do you know, it occurs to me that Jesus did this. He gave many different stories and examples, such as: the kingdom is like, the kingdom is like, or the kingdom is like this or that...Bruce, you are a good teacher when you use your own new words instead of the same exact ones over and over. 
I know this one!
The animal sacrifices were because everything in the temporal temple had to be a copy of the temple in heaven.
Sounds too simple but it's true!
And when I see some seemingly random and arbitrary thing like, there must be exactly 30 pomegranates here or there must be a wall exactly 6 ft. here and two inches there, I want so badly to know what it is telling about the eternal temple! But I rarely get a glimpse and I wish He would show a man so he could explain it to us!
The animal sacrifices were because everything in the temporal temple had to be a copy of the temple in heaven.
Sounds too simple but it's true!
And when I see some seemingly random and arbitrary thing like, there must be exactly 30 pomegranates here or there must be a wall exactly 6 ft. here and two inches there, I want so badly to know what it is telling about the eternal temple! But I rarely get a glimpse and I wish He would show a man so he could explain it to us!
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Do you know...you may have finally got me here...you didn't post the same words again for the umpteenth time, but went at it differently, and...I have finally seen what you mean now when you keep repeating that one same statement that I began to skip over many of your posts because of...I think you should stop copy pasting the same things over and over. It allows a way for someone having difficulty understanding to grasp it. I finally understand you because you said it differently. Do you know, it occurs to me that Jesus did this. He gave many different stories and examples, such as: the kingdom is like, the kingdom is like, or the kingdom is like this or that...Bruce, you are a good teacher when you use your own new words instead of the same exact ones over and over.
Thank you. I will be more aware of using different wordings when talking with the same people on a subject if the first ones are not getting through.
Paul says to use "sound words" so that we can be clearly understood. That's why it's great that we not attack and insult each other while we are learning to articulate what we are saying and of course things do get lost over the internet too. Certain words can trigger a response from us because of a bias or previous connotation behind them.
It's a growth process for sure...
B
I do as well understand what you mention too, for the most part.
IMO to say a plan is somewhat true in a sense though to say to make a plan would be like saying I'm going to plan my day but I don't know if things will work out the way I planned my day I'll have to wait and see, IMO God doesnt plan on something he already knows to be in its completion for yes He knew the completion would be so IMO yes it was allowed for He knows the end of it.
For some it may well be hard to fathom of such Love for another, is likely something that is hard to muster at times but when love becomes a knee twitched reaction the desire to know that the other person will live to see another day over powers any feelings of unfairness...
IMO to say a plan is somewhat true in a sense though to say to make a plan would be like saying I'm going to plan my day but I don't know if things will work out the way I planned my day I'll have to wait and see, IMO God doesnt plan on something he already knows to be in its completion for yes He knew the completion would be so IMO yes it was allowed for He knows the end of it.
For some it may well be hard to fathom of such Love for another, is likely something that is hard to muster at times but when love becomes a knee twitched reaction the desire to know that the other person will live to see another day over powers any feelings of unfairness...
I understand what you are saying. Sometimes I use the same words on some subjects for the other people that are reading them as they are new and I am just making general statements.
Thank you. I will be more aware of using different wordings when talking with the same people on a subject if the first ones are not getting through.
Paul says to use "sound words" so that we can be clearly understood. That's why it's great that we not attack and insult each other while we are learning to articulate what we are saying and of course things do get lost over the internet too. Certain words can trigger a response from us because of a bias or previous connotation behind them.
It's a growth process for sure...
Thank you. I will be more aware of using different wordings when talking with the same people on a subject if the first ones are not getting through.
Paul says to use "sound words" so that we can be clearly understood. That's why it's great that we not attack and insult each other while we are learning to articulate what we are saying and of course things do get lost over the internet too. Certain words can trigger a response from us because of a bias or previous connotation behind them.
It's a growth process for sure...
The categories were something like...reader, hearer, visual, tactile, etc. The teachers job was to offer the information in all these ways so that no one was left behind.
There was reading of the concepts offered.
There was something like a chart or graph (NOT my learning and comprehending style AT ALL)
There was a taped recording for those who couldn't grasp by reading as easily as by hearing.
There were physical models for the tactile learner to manipulate and look at.
And so on.
It was the teachers job to present in all the ways. And it was the learners job to avail himself of the ways that worked best for their comprehension.
It's very interesting...
You lost me here a bit...I can be thick.
I understand and agree that we make our plans and do not know if they work out as we hoped and planned them.
But we are human.
God makes a plan and knows EXACTLY every detail and EXACTLY how it will go.
This is how He can say, I've told you the end from the beginning.
It's how He can say, and at the blowing of the one angels trumpet, the plan of God will all have happened exactly as He told the prophets it would.
To the last meticulous detail of the prophets words was the death of Jesus. And even His birth, as with the bizarre verses seeming to contradict each other about where He would come FROM. Three different places, but it DID happen this way when it was all done.
That is not making a plan and knowing it will happen but not exactly how. That is making a plan and telling exactly how it will come to pass in every minute detail.
This has been so pivotal to my trust in God. It is the only way I am able to trust step by step is to know that He HAS the step by step even if I don't. He didn't just permit it to happen, He told its' every intricate detail beforehand - even down to the spitting in His face. To the names of three towns and places. And a lot more. There was a script there. Nothing was improvised.
I understand and agree that we make our plans and do not know if they work out as we hoped and planned them.
But we are human.
God makes a plan and knows EXACTLY every detail and EXACTLY how it will go.
This is how He can say, I've told you the end from the beginning.
It's how He can say, and at the blowing of the one angels trumpet, the plan of God will all have happened exactly as He told the prophets it would.
To the last meticulous detail of the prophets words was the death of Jesus. And even His birth, as with the bizarre verses seeming to contradict each other about where He would come FROM. Three different places, but it DID happen this way when it was all done.
That is not making a plan and knowing it will happen but not exactly how. That is making a plan and telling exactly how it will come to pass in every minute detail.
This has been so pivotal to my trust in God. It is the only way I am able to trust step by step is to know that He HAS the step by step even if I don't. He didn't just permit it to happen, He told its' every intricate detail beforehand - even down to the spitting in His face. To the names of three towns and places. And a lot more. There was a script there. Nothing was improvised.
B
You lost me here a bit...I can be thick.
I understand and agree that we make our plans and do not know if they work out as we hoped and planned them.
But we are human.
God makes a plan and knows EXACTLY every detail and EXACTLY how it will go.
This is how He can say, I've told you the end from the beginning.
It's how He can say, and at the blowing of the one angels trumpet, the plan of God will all have happened exactly as He told the prophets it would.
To the last meticulous detail of the prophets words was the death of Jesus. And even His birth, as with the bizarre verses seeming to contradict each other about where He would come FROM. Three different places, but it DID happen this way when it was all done.
That is not making a plan and knowing it will happen but not exactly how. That is making a plan and telling exactly how it will come to pass in every minute detail.
This has been so pivotal to my trust in God. It is the only way I am able to trust step by step is to know that He HAS the step by step even if I don't. He didn't just permit it to happen, He told its' every intricate detail beforehand - even down to the spitting in His face. To the names of three towns and places. And a lot more. There was a script there. Nothing was improvised.
I understand and agree that we make our plans and do not know if they work out as we hoped and planned them.
But we are human.
God makes a plan and knows EXACTLY every detail and EXACTLY how it will go.
This is how He can say, I've told you the end from the beginning.
It's how He can say, and at the blowing of the one angels trumpet, the plan of God will all have happened exactly as He told the prophets it would.
To the last meticulous detail of the prophets words was the death of Jesus. And even His birth, as with the bizarre verses seeming to contradict each other about where He would come FROM. Three different places, but it DID happen this way when it was all done.
That is not making a plan and knowing it will happen but not exactly how. That is making a plan and telling exactly how it will come to pass in every minute detail.
This has been so pivotal to my trust in God. It is the only way I am able to trust step by step is to know that He HAS the step by step even if I don't. He didn't just permit it to happen, He told its' every intricate detail beforehand - even down to the spitting in His face. To the names of three towns and places. And a lot more. There was a script there. Nothing was improvised.
So I ask of this, what would be your answer as to why Jesus sweated in the garden and ask God is there any other way, that question he ask God was heavy on his heart.
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A
I don't like the current model of education. Previously it was the students job to learn by whatever means they had available and the teachers to teach the material. Some would use those various methods to teach but it was good for each student to learn the various methods and adapt the material to a method they best learn...not expect the teacher to do all the work for them,
I think He was facing something much more awful than just physical death. And He was doing so AFTER emptying Himself of His divinity and having to trust solely on Gods' Spirit just as we have to. I don't think we can, or ever will, fully understand what exactly it was that was greater than just a physical death because we would have to experience it to fully understand, but we never WILL experience it because He died so we WON'T. He experienced whatever this feels like to be completely abandoned by God so that WE won't have to experience it. The demons know it is coming and they are terrified. The words used to describe being abandoned by God are: to be thrown into the outer darkness. To be completely severed from Him with no way to ever get back to Him. I have imagined going to space and walking on the moon and then having your tether break as has been portrayed in some movies and the terror of floating away into nothingness and knowing you will never get back. You will float there forever, no light, no sound, no joy, no connection to anyone or anything ever again. The demons begged and pleaded to be cast into the bodies of pigs rather than be cast there. They are terrified beyond all words.