The Original Pentecostal Movement

[presidente]

Folks, if attributing a work of Christ to the work of the Devil is blaspheme(and it is) then what is calling a work of the Devil, a work of God? They are two sides of the same coin...in both cases you are replacing God with the Devil. In one case a work of God is being called a work of the Devil, in the other place a work of the Devil is being called a work of God.

This is a very legitimate concern, and we should be careful what we attribute to God.

How can anyone rant and rave about someone calling a manifestation the work of the Devil if they cannot find chapter and verse in the NT that describes such a manifestation as of God?

Do you think Christians should make up doctrine that is not taught in scripture? Show me where the works of God are ever limited to whatever God has done in scripture? If you can't, then your saying if God hasn't already done a work in scripture that it is not of God is making up unbiblical doctrine.

The faith has been once delivered to the saints. It doesn't say every work of God has been written in scripture.

There was no Biblical precedent for God splitting a body of water before Moses, but God still split the Red Sea. When had God ever made a covenant with a man regarding the kingship of Israel before David? Where was the Biblical precedent for it?

There is also the fact that some miracles and works of God do have a reference in scripture, or something quite similar to it, and certain commentators will condemn without being aware of it. Not being able to stand up in the temple when the kavod entered is an example.

 

[presidente]

If someone attributes the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan or demons or if someone attributes the power of Satan/demons to the Holy Spirit by accident or out of ignorance, will they be forgiven? Or does it not matter whether it's done on purpose or not?

Jesus said 'whosoever' and the words he spoke on that topic didn't make an allowance for ignorance, so we'd better be careful.

 

[samuel23]

If there is a spiritual power at work in a meeting, and there is no place in the NT that would indicate to us that this manifestation of spirit power is of God...then what is left, there is only the spirit power of God or Satan, if we have no evidence from scripture to tell us the power is God what then is left? Is there anything in the NT that would suggest that God would cause gold dust to appear in a church meeting? If one is open to good dust then why not to a rabbit coming out of a hat?

 

[presidente]

You are mixing apples with cars. Different things, I can easily find scripture to back up your story of Muller. I cannot find scripture that would tell me to get down on all fours and crawl around the church barking like a dog...discernment friend, I am speaking of discernment. When a person begins to call certain physical manifestations the work of the Spirit when there is no example in the bible then they better back off.

Who is telling people to bark like a dog on all fours? Really, have you ever heard any Pentecostals or Charismatics say to do that? Why do you pick something weird and irrelevant to real life? Why choose a straw man.

I chose gold dust as an example, because I've heard of people claiming to see gold dust. A woman I've met, the wife of my brother's former boss, is said to have a gold filling, a regular filling that turned gold. I haven't seen her since she got it, but peopel I know say they've seen it. I can't find gold fillings in the Bible. But I don't have any Biblical basis for condemning such a thing as being of the devil.

Another example would be oil flowing from someone's head or appearing on someone's forehead why being prayed for. I can't find any Biblical examples of it, but I don't have any Biblical reason to condemn either thing. I wouldn't want to speak against it if it were a work of God. But oil flowing from someone's hands when he prays for someone is just weird for me, so I don't want to pray for that to happen. (I've heard of this, I imagine someone using the oil to fry potatoes, which is pretty gross to me.)

 

[presidente]

If there is a spiritual power at work in a meeting, and there is no place in the NT that would indicate to us that this manifestation of spirit power is of God...then what is left, there is only the spirit power of God or Satan, if we have no evidence from scripture to tell us the power is God what then is left? Is there anything in the NT that would suggest that God would cause gold dust to appear in a church meeting? If one is open to good dust then why not to a rabbit coming out of a hat?

Gold dust is not a magic trick at kids parties.

Where does the Bible give you authority to condemn thing that the Bible does not condemn? You are assuming authority the scripture does not teach that you have. Show me, from scripture, where you get the authority to condemn a supernatural work not specified in scripture? You are using a man-made hermeneutic.

I believe you hold to a doctrine here that is not part of the 'faith once delivered to the saints.' Prove me wrong from the Bible.

 

[samuel23]

Anyone who will accept a spirit supernatural manifestation when no example of such a manifestation can be found in the bible is totally and utterly deceived....WHY DO YOU THINK GOD GAVE US THE BIBLE??? Maybe so we would be able to determine the works of God from the works of Satan.

 

[presidente]

Anyone who will accept a spirit supernatural manifestation when no example of such a manifestation can be found in the bible is totally and utterly deceived.

Show me where the Bible teaches this doctrine.

What do you think of those who believe and teach a doctrine not taught in the scriptures?

The faith was once delivered to the saints. But you have no authority to tell God He is limited in what He will do. If there are are any 'limits' that we can identify on what God will do, these are only 'limits' He has revealed about Himself. The Bible says it is impossible for God to lie.

God is sovereign. He is God. Since He is God, you have no right to say He will not do something unless He has revealed that. The Bible has many examples of God doing things that the Bible had never recorded that He had done before.

 

[willybob]

In answer to the OP.....In my research it all began with Edward Erving at Powers Court, the begging of the great signs and wonder movement. Interestingly enough "end times mania" also began with Erving...In 1827 he translated Jesuit Emanuel Lacunza writing's concerning the last days...Lacunza's work was a revamp of the Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera in the 1580s during the counter reformation. Ribera IS the father of all the current end times mania that we see today....Catholic Priest's forming Protestant Eschatology unbeknowence to them.....Oddly enough, one of the few things that the Reformers had right was the eschatological understanding of the ONE resurrection, and the end of the world bringing in the new heaven and new earth for eternity........In closing one might say Erving killed two birds with one stone, thus birthing the signs and wonders crowd along with end times mania......both of which are huge money making industries today beguiling unstable souls..

Jesus said to those looking for signs and wonders that the only sign given to them is that of the prophet Jonah "ie" repent or perish.............

 

[willybob]

Please excuse my spelling it was Edward Irving.....

 

[wolfwint]

I have mentioned this before. I do not say that everyone who is filled with the Spirit necessarily speaks in tongues. Speaking in tongues could be counterfeited just like prophecy could be.

But it seems that 88 believes that.

 

[presidente]

Jesus said to those looking for signs and wonders that the only sign given to them is that of the prophet Jonah "ie" repent or perish.............

Jesus had just fed the 5000. The Jews who demanded a sign were probably looking for the Deuteronomy test of a prophet type sign, a fulfilled predictive prophecy. Jesus gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah, which was actually a predictive prophecy of His resurrection.

The apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming. He told them many things, and even called one thing he predicted a 'sign.' The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders in Acts 4. You can read Acts to see how their prayers were answered.

 

[garee]

You are a mental oriented believer.

That is why when it says " the spirit prays, but the mind is unfruitful" you have no clue, because you have no experience to fall back on.

Christians walk by the faith, the unseen eternal, it comes from hearing God and not after our experiences we perform. We lean forward on the faith of Christ not fall back as slain in the spirit according to the sign seekers.

We don’t walk after the witness that men men performed outwardly. The Jews where sign seekers also and would not believe, or exercise faith unless it was in respect to something they could do outwardly. They had no assurance of salvation through the scriptures as the one source of faith by which any man can believe God.They had no confidence in the Holy Spirit, coming from that Spirit..

Christ informs us he does receive honor from men as evidence they have the Holy Spirit.

They who seek after a sign are shown as not having His word abiding in them as their source of assurance.It is why he replied to them in John5

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.I receive not honour from men. Joh 5:38

I would think that making some sounds that have no meaning is not proof a person has the Holy Spirit. Our confidence is in His word (prophecy).

Scripture (prophecy) is the validator of spiritual truth. If it was after an experience we have then Christ would of not said time and time again, it is written.

We can see that in Mathew 4 when the Son of man did experience what some call an “out of the body experience” which was simply Satin the father of lies, as the god of this world who brought in lying signs and wonders. Jesus never moved one inch from the sand he was standing in.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mat 4:5

Any of us that have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit know what that is talking about.

Yes I would think we know that splashing H20 on flesh is not a sign from God they have the Holy Spirit. It a ceremonial law used in ceremonies that as a shadow point to the unseen eternal. Splashing H20 on one’s flesh could not make him that did the service faultless, as pertaining to the conscience or heart of man. Just like any ceremonial law

The same with revelation where John says " I was in the spirit on the Lords day"

In other words it was a revelation, as prophecy from God .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to to him.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

You are one dimensional because you have never sought anything higher.

Higher than what the word of God ?

No hunger. No gifting

A hunger that rises above that which is written?

That portion of scripture (1 Corinthians 14) is about improper use of the gifts. Some were using them as idols for self-edification.

I have a different understanding on how it works out as to the ultimate goal. Prophecy alone is the source of gospel of salvation, as it is written from faith to faith. In that way we can desire a spiritual gift but rather that we might prophecy (to declare the word of God) In a hope God might apply His word to their souls.

Making sounds that have no meaning is not a part of the gospel.

 

[garee]

Jesus had just fed the 5000. The Jews who demanded a sign were probably looking for the Deuteronomy test of a prophet type sign, a fulfilled predictive prophecy. Jesus gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah, which was actually a predictive prophecy of His resurrection.

God does not give into people who seek after a sign before they will believe, exercise faith. He is not a circus seal in that way.....Do a trick before a person can believe.

Signs are for those who believe not . Prophecy for those who walk by faith. Its a law not subject to change by sign seekers .

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming. He told them many things, and even called one thing he predicted a 'sign.'

He is coming as a thief in the night he did not give them a specific sign but rather a general warning he is coming just as he did in the days of Noah, it will be business as usual, men marrying and giving into marriage. Sign are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who believe as to the anchor of their souls.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:3

The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders in Acts 4. You can read Acts to see how their prayers were answered.

God is not a circus seal and needs to provide a sign before men can believe.

I don’t think if in one place Christ condemns those who seek after a sign (an evil generation, natural man) before they will believe God, and that he would promote it in another case, it only adds confusion and makes the faith of Christ without effect.

There are no commandments that we seek after a sign before a person can exercise faith.

The sign to the unbelieving Jew in Acts 4 is where they were assembled together as a multitude ; and the ones that heard prophecy were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

It’s an evil generation that sees after a sign before those kind of sign seekers can have the confidence they have the Holy Spirit. The last sign and wonder (Jonas) was given and fulfilled. Do we need more than He has revealed before we can believe?

 

[presidente]

Sign are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who believe as to the anchor of their souls.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?And Jesus answered and said unto them,

First you say that signs are for those who rebel. Then you quote a passage about the apostles asking for a sign.

You don't have any Biblical support for a lot of assertions you make. And you assert things that contradict scripture. In this case, while trying to argue another point, you quoted a verse that argues against one of your own points.

God is not a circus seal and needs to provide a sign before men can believe.

God is not a circus seal, but in His mercy He has sent a lot of signs which helped men believe in Him. He poured out a number of things on Egypt, and the Egyptians knew that He was the Lord. Israel saw the great wonders He performed, and the parents were to remind their children of these things.

Jesus said, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe", then He performed a healing.

I don’t think if in one place Christ condemns those who seek after a sign (an evil generation, natural man) before they will believe God, and that he would promote it in another case, it only adds confusion and makes the faith of Christ without effect.

What you think about these things doesn't matter much. What matters is what the Bible teaches. Jesus told Thomas to put his fingers into the holes and his hand in his side, and said, 'And be not faithless but believing.'

The attitude of Thomas' heart, in spite of his responding with unbelief, may have been different from those who demanded a sign of Jesus. Those who did this were probably demanding a fulfilled prophecy so that if it were not fulfilled, they could accuse Him of being a false prophet.

Paul declared that Elymas was blind. After seeing that, Sergius Paulus believed. But we don't see any evidence that Sergius Paulus was challenging God or opposing the Gospel himself.

There are no commandments that we seek after a sign before a person can exercise faith.

There is no commandment that we reject signs that the Lord performs. There is no commandment that we create a straw man that implies that those who believe God works signs don't believe God unless He does a sign.

The last sign and wonder (Jonas) was given and fulfilled. Do we need more than He has revealed before we can believe?

The book of Acts shows us that the apostles and certain other believers performed signs afer the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

 

[garee]

I have mentioned this before. I do not say that everyone who is filled with the Spirit necessarily speaks in tongues. Speaking in tongues could be counterfeited just like prophecy could be.

Tongues are a sign to those who believe not (no faith). Prophecy to those who do believe.

We have the whole or perfect word of God and are warned not to add to it or take away from our one source of faith ,the word of God.

It would be easy to spot a counterfeit just look for those who go above that which is written .Therefore if any man says I received a new revelation we are to believe not. In that way it would be impossible to deceive the elect that do obey the commandment as a warning not to add or take away from the book of prophecy,the bible..

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.Mar 13:21

Why would a person need more that God has revealed? To give themselves confidence they have the Holy Spirit?

 

[presidente]

Garee,

We need to believe what the Bible actually teaches. The Bible teaches that there is a gift of prophecy, a manifestation of the Spirit which is given to the saints. We should not redefine prophecy to some anachronistic meaning as redefined in some circles after the reformation. We can study scripture to know what prophesying actually is. Peter describes the prophesying of holy men of old that they 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'

The type of prophesying the Spirit enables believers to do exhorts, comforts, and edifies. It can also make manifest the secrets of one's hearts. Prophesying is a revelatory gift, which we know because Paul says, "if a revelation cometh to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace."

The New Testament teaches us "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good."

The warning at the end of the book of Revelation not to add to the scroll of Revelation in no way cancels out the gift of prophecy. The book of Revelation even predicts the prophesying of the two witnesses.

 

[garee]

First you say that signs are for those who rebel. Then you quote a passage about the apostles asking for a sign.

I did not promote the idea that the apostles are to seek after a sign as if it was an approved biblical teaching. Signs are for those who rebel .Prophecy (walking by faith) for those who can believe God, not seen

Signs seekers are referred to as those who known not what kind of spirit they are of.

The apostles sought after signs, they were not commended for going above that which is written but rather rebuked.

And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.Luk 9

It offended the apostles who refused to walk by faith the unseen. They rejected Jesus and did not receive Him

And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what "manner of spirit" ye are of. Luk 9:52

What manner of spirit would you say seeks after a sign?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness1Co 1:21

Why promote seeking after that which makes prophecy to no effect? Was manna a sign to those who believe or those who murmured against God?

I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. Exo 16:12

The apostles again seeking after a sign before they would believe..

They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. Joh 6:30

No promotion there or below.

Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. Joh 4:48

 

[garee]

We need to believe what the Bible actually teaches. The Bible teaches that there is a gift of prophecy, a manifestation of the Spirit which is given to the saints. We should not redefine prophecy to some anachronistic meaning as redefined in some circles after the reformation. We can study scripture to know what prophesying actually is. Peter describes the prophesying of holy men of old that they 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'

As long as God was adding to His book of prophecy that God moved men to write it down it was possible.

Will you take heed to the warning or promote the private interpretations as revelations of men?

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Are you receiving new revelations after any manner to include a tongue?

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2Pe 1:21

 

[garee]

The warning at the end of the book of Revelation not to add to the scroll of Revelation in no way cancels out the gift of prophecy. The book of Revelation even predicts the prophesying of the two witnesses.

I would agree it does not cancel it out, it limits it to what is written. To prophecy is to declare the word of God, called prophesy.

Do we need more than he has revealed?

 

[samuel23]

There is a difference between wanting to see the hand of God move, as in answer to a prayer, as opposed to wanting to see some physical manifestation that everyone calls a move of the spirit(drunk in the spirit, slain in the spirit). We should all want to see the former and we do not really need to see the latter, it is more along the lines of entertainment.