Genesis and the Three Heavens

Bladerunner · Feb 20, 2017

that is NOT what the Bible states

Bladerunner · Feb 20, 2017

Perfect.

Let's talk about that.

In Genesis 1:15 we see that Stars exist in the Firmament of Heaven...

"And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so"

Since we all know that Stars are in Space, we can conclude that Firmament means Space.

Ah Base12....it is a good evening for a revealing debate.

How do you know stars are in space????????? What is Space--without air a vacuum,???????How do you know. I mean we know what a vacuum is. I hope we can agree that a vacuum is more than the absence of air.
, but then what is space? If you are thinking about the Universe that scientist tell us that just happened to be from Nothing. hey also tell us the earth is Billions of Years Old.......Yet God tells us it is 6,000 years old.????OOPS

The Bible tells us where the stars are and it does not say anything about space, universe or a vacuum????/

Base12,, before we get to the 15 verse, lets lay some ground work...

In Gen 1:6-8." And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7.And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. "

a divider (firmament) in the middle (midst) of the water. Reminds me of a cup that will 'divide the waters within the cup from the waters' you just emerged from???

Now it appears the firmament here is solid. What do you think? Before you answer, consider these facts. If it were not, how did it divide the waters? A Gas cannot do that, A Spiritual firmament cannot do that.A piece of paper can NOT do that BUTa solid (like the cup) could. Plus the fact there are many scriptures calling it solid. If you want I can give them to you.

On top of that, God DID NOT call the space between earth, the seas< and >the firmament HEAVEN. No He call the Firmament HEAVEN.

Next verse...Lets hold on here,,,,,,,,,, he still have to put forth the ground work first.

Gen 1:9.."And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."

Here we see 'the waters UNDER the Heaven'.....or waters UNDER the Firmament.

We are getting close so hang on....... Gen 1:14-15..." And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

Ok,,,, "IN THE Firmament...(inside, within because it was spread out like a tent. in another book passage)
The Firmament OF THE Heaven. That was what HE (God) called it Heaven.... The verse 15 has the same type sentence.

Thus the stars are within the firmament that is called Heaven.

Before we get to verse 20,,,what about Gen 1:16-17.."And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Here God set the SUN and MOON 'IN THE firmament', of the (called) Heaven

It is also funny but while we are at it, God made two lights, The Greater Light ( a bigger, brighter, etc) and a Lesser Light ( smaller and dimmer than the Great Light)

oopa,,,scientist tell us the moon is lite by the sunlight.....But God tells us it has its own light. Wonder who is right.

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Genesis 1:20
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven"

Oops!

Birds don't fly in Space, much less fly to where the Stars are.

Looks like we have a major contradiction.

And since there are no contradictions in the KJV, we must re-think our interpretation.

Finally, we get to Gen 1:20..."And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Ok,,,,lets review what we have here. A solid firmament that divided the waters of the seas. It actually had waters above it and waters below here on earth. In the Open Firmament of Heaven.,, Our SKY?

p.s. we can debate that next??????????

Before I quit,,,, lets look at the wording of 'In The Open".. H6440 (paniyrn) פָּנִים pânîym, paw-neem'; plural (but always as singular) of an unused noun פָּנֶה pâneh; from H6437); the face (as the part that turns);

So the Birds will fly in the face (Under) the Firmament which was called Heaven by GOD.

One other thing, Astrology has and will always will be a pagan activity.

I turn it over to you!

Bladerunner · Feb 20, 2017

Enow said:

I read Genesis as the Lord leads.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The first verse is the topic for this message; and verse 2 is signifying the beginning of that topic where there was nothing created.

Genesis 1:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So light came forth in creation for establishing day and night, but this light was not coming from the sun, but the Son.

Genesis 1:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.[SUP]7 [/SUP]And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

On the second day, earth was now a water planet as the water was separated from the upper atmosphere.

Genesis 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.[SUP]10 [/SUP]And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.[SUP]11 [/SUP]And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the evening and the morning were the third day.

This was when dry land appear coming out of the water planet; hence Pangaea, the one land continent with mature plants and trees bearing fruits and seeds on that day.

Genesis 1:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.[SUP]16 [/SUP]And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.[SUP]17 [/SUP]And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

That was when God created two great lights; the sun to govern the day and the lights from the stars to govern the earth that night. That means God had to fill the gap with the light from those stars to govern the earth that night.

So getting back to the 3 heavens....

Genesis 5:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 Kings 2:[SUP]11 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Anyway... we have three kinds of heavens; the upper atmosphere... where Enoch & Elijah were taken up... as it could not be Heaven where God dwells.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So where is Enoch & Ezekiel now?

It is a stretch of my imaginations, but it would be the Lord putting that thought in my head, which I believe that to be the case because I believe those two are being transported through time & space right now to that point in time and space when they serve Him as THE two witnesses in the great tribulation.

So the upper atmosphere is one heaven; the second heaven is outer space; not sure by which heaven Enoch & Elijah are traveling through right now, but anyway, not the third heaven where God dwells.

1 Corinthians 15:[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Anyway, as science look through space above for how planets are formed and stuff in the beginnings of earth, thinking they found an earth forming as a water planet with a frozen upper atmosphere in theory, we can see how God commanded in creation fastforwarding everything in setting up the earth & the heavens in six days to run as the light that began it all was still shining until that one fateful day when the Son of God took our sins upon Himself to no longer shine in creation and the lights in creation did went out for a time.

Matthew 27:[SUP]45[/SUP]Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.[SUP]46 [/SUP]And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Sin separates us from God; and when Jesus too our sins upon Himself, He was separated from the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That sin not only separated Him from the Father, but when our Creator, the Light of the world took our sins upon Himself, the lights in creation went out for there is no greater Light than our Creator, Jesus Christ.

Passover commences on a full moon annually and so there was not even a light from that full moon. Joseph Africanus, a historian that was a christian, corrected a secular historian, Thallus, of attributing the darkness to an eclipse when it is unlikely because the Passover commences on a full moon annually.

So that shows an unusual darkness as the lights from the stars could not been seen either as our Creator took the sins of the world upon Himself as His light went out briefly in creation that suspended all other lights.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same was in the beginning with God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.[SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Thanks be to God that the darkness lasted only for a brief time to show His triumph over sin & death.

I digress....

The 3 heavens are as the upper atmosphere... the outer space.. and third heaven where God dwells.

I like some of your views,,but your revert back to Man's puny attempt at playing God. Science.

Bladerunner · Feb 20, 2017

BeyondET said:

Do you think for one moment that God would let His WORDs (the Bible) telling us all about Him and our ancestors, about Jesus and what we can expect in the future; be changed in any form without a reference Bible around. That reference is the original King James Version. It has been checked against the Textus Receptus, the Septuagint, the Torah and other scrolls that are considered His word. It has been verified to be 97-99% accurate.

To be fair, that are places where the translation could be better but even if changed to a better word(s) it would not change the verse meanings in all cases.

The new versions and there are many of them, I do not recommend them. I have not really researched them were others have. If you insist on using them, beware of the different meanings of words/verses that was back then and are now simply because of updated wording..

Bladerunner · Feb 20, 2017

Base12 said:

SO?????????....the other two heavens were already there.

BeyondET · Feb 21, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Well the 1611 KJV is a updated version of the bishop bible and the great bible that's in King James own testament to the translators that he put in place to transcribe, and King James gave direct Order not to translate any word in the old text that said congregation to congregation but to the word church why to pleased the Church of England. I do like the KJV it has some better translations than others.

But there is one clear thing to me as well, is that the verse numbering and chapter division is Not, I repeat is Not, in the older manuscripts. Thus was purely A man made up thing to make it easier to reference teachings. In doing so it has it's high points and low points, But a person needs to make sure things are context together properly.

BeyondET · Feb 21, 2017

Base12 said:

Good stuff bro, reminds me of this verse

Gen{2:4} These are the gene-rations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Personally though I haven't been able to wrap my thoughts around the moon being the lesser of the two lights. I'm still one who believes that sunlight is reflected off the surface of the moon and that's what we see at night or day. My thoughts are the lesser light is the earths core incased within the sphere of the earths crust. And how important is this ball of magma to our living on this planet can be measured. It truly is a wonder a amazing thing to sustaining life. Strip away all of the earths ground and water basically peel away the outer earth and explose the earths core and from afar in space it would look like a small redish sun.

phil36 · Feb 21, 2017

Base12 said:

Need we say anymore? Another bizarre theory using the King Jimmy onlyism to back its strange hermaneutic.

Going back to your original post:

Straight away we can see the strawman you have built.. (What scholars, what Pastors, church leaders are you referring to?).

In order for you to bolster your theories, you try and seat everyone on top of your strawman to show that they are wrong. However, your strawman is false.

Using your owns words..take head!

Base12 · Feb 22, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Finally, we get to Gen 1:20..."And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Ok,,,,lets review what we have here. A solid firmament that divided the waters of the seas. It actually had waters above it and waters below here on earth. In the Open Firmament of Heaven.,, Our SKY?

p.s. we can debate that next??????????

Before I quit,,,, lets look at the wording of 'In The Open".. H6440 (paniyrn) פָּנִים pânîym, paw-neem'; plural (but always as singular) of an unused noun פָּנֶה pâneh; from H6437); the face (as the part that turns);

So the Birds will fly in the face (Under) the Firmament which was called Heaven by GOD.

One other thing, Astrology has and will always will be a pagan activity.

I turn it over to you!

I'm having trouble understanding what you view as the Firmament.

Do you believe the Firmament is Earth's Atmosphere?

Or do you believe the Firmament is Outer Space?

Base12 · Feb 22, 2017

phil36 said:

Lol... I think this is strange...

John 3:16 (NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

His "One and only Son"?

Really?

God only has one Son?

So all this business about Sons of God is a lie?

Genesis 6:2 (NIV)
"the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose"

How can you guys post these contradictions with a straight face?

posthuman · Feb 22, 2017

Base12 said:

anyone who is not kjv-only must be niv-only?

((insert meme))

posthuman · Feb 22, 2017

Base12 said:

iirc Bladerunner doesn't believe in outer space. ((?))

posthuman · Feb 22, 2017

Bladerunner said:

sure a gas can divide waters.

what divides these two clouds?

guess what clouds are made of?

((water))

even a pure void can divide two waters.

Base12 · Feb 22, 2017

posthuman said:

celib · Feb 23, 2017

Base12 said:

Throw away your NIV and stick to the King James and get yourself a couple of concordance, Peter said in 2.Pe.3:5 the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. 6 the world [world age] that then was being overflowed with water perished. the world that then was, was the first world age, the firmament was the oceans that surrounded the earth like clouds, that is why there was no rain, it was like living in a green house.
Between verse one and two of Gen.1 there is a gap of many years, we have to add Jer.4:26-27 in between, the scriptures say the earth became without form, not was without form, it became without form when satan rebelled, God removed the law of gravity and the oceans came down and destroyed the earth that was, the rest of the recreation story was the recreation, the firmament [oceans] was put back, in Noahs flood the firmament was funnelled down over the Israelites.
In Gen.1:26 God said let us make man [flesh man] in our image, rather then destroying a third of his children because they followed satan in the rebellion, we get another chance being born innocent and free to choose, this is the second world age, the third world age will be eternity to those that choose Christ. God bless

Base12 · Feb 23, 2017

celib said:

So the Stars were part of said Ocean?

Genesis 1:14
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years"

Do you guys see what I'm getting at?

Our Atmosphere as well as Outer Space are *both* part of the same Heaven... not two separate Heavens.

Where does the Bible say that two of the three Heavens are Space and Atmosphere?

It's an assumption!

celib said:

Ooooh.

The Gap Theory eh?

celib said:

A lower gravity you say?

I wonder what would cause the Earth to have a lower gravity?

[video=youtube;7kL7qDeI05U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U[/video]

Base12 · Feb 23, 2017

posthuman said:

You seem to like Science.

What about God separating Brane from Brane?

See how watery they are?

BeyondET · Feb 23, 2017

I've seen and read that expanding earth thing has been debunked, it's started around 1850 and some still believe in it even though there's a mountain of evidence to prove its not.

[video=youtube;epwg6Od49e8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=epwg6Od49e8[/video]

Base12 · Feb 23, 2017

I appreciate the video ET, but after watching it I don't feel like the author truly debunked anything.

His main argument was "where did the mass come from"?

Seems like a Straw Man.

Why should the Earth gain mass in order to expand?

Lot's of things expand without gaining mass.

It happens all the time...

Bladerunner · Feb 23, 2017

BeyondET said:

I recken so!!!!!... the KJV 1611 version is around 97-99% percent accurate in accordance with the Textus Receptus for the NT and of course the Torah, and original scrolls plus the translations of the Septuagint LXX. Can you say that for any other Bible out there....I think not...

Let me say this,,,, It is evident that you are among some of those that well.........are looking for a way around the Bible and its teachings. For what reason, I do not know, nor do I care? What I do know, is that the Bible KJV 1611 is God's WORD as HE spoke, wrote or inspired the 40+ authors throughout the last 3000 years. It, the Bible has survived Satan's attempt to remove it from the earth. Like Satan's failed attempts to kill Jesus Christ, he could not keep God's Word from the People WHO WOULD HEAR IT and BELIEVE IT! (LIKE ME).

There are a number of people on this forum, who try to bring the light of to Jesus Christ to people that are obviously lost. These people believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, they believe in the Word of GOD, they believe in Jesus Christ and they believe that the last book in the Bible (Revelation) holds the narrative of what will happen in the near future of mankind. They believe in the marriage of the Bride to Jesus Christ, they believe in the Bema Seat Judgements, they believe in the 1000 years of Jesus Christ where He will rule with an Iron rod, they believe in the re-creation of another earth with a heavenly Jerusalem and the God's temple at its center.

SIR, it appears to me that you are not one of these people according to your writings. I pray that you listen to some of the people I mentioned above and find your way to Jesus Christ before it is too late. The End-times are upon us.

Genesis and the Three Heavens

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