Have you believed the false grace message?

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valiant

Senior Member
#481
Mar 22, 2015
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#481
Stunnedbygrace said:
Not if I don't abide...who would even want to make a grab for eternal life and then toss out the abiding that brought it to them...?
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well I am grateful that God will keep me. I wouldn't trust myself to keep on abiding otherwise.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#482
Nov 12, 2015
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#482
valiant said:
Jesus was talking to those who 'claimed to believe'. Those who do not bear fruit are dead branches, not a true part of the vine. Those who are a true part of the vine produce fruit,
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Dead branches were once a part of a living vine. How can they never have been branches? If they were never branches, why on earth would they even be cut off...? HOW could they even be cut off if they weren't attached and alive at some point? Are you saying that Israel was never part of the vine? Then how or why were they cut off and we grafted in? That's not with any reason behind it at all...
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#483
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#483
Stunnedbygrace said:
Dead branches were once a part of a living vine. How can they never have been branches? If they were never branches, why on earth would they even be cut off...? HOW could they even be cut off if they weren't attached and alive at some point? Are you saying that Israel was never part of the vine? Then how or why were they cut off and we grafted in? That's not with any reason behind it at all...
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Israel is the perfect example. They were part of the vine. But not all were saved. They were not part of the living vine. Thus the unsaved could be cut off. you must not forget that it is a parable.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#484
Apr 7, 2014
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#484
Stunnedbygrace said:
If any branch that does not produce fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire, do you think being thrown into the fire would have been better translated as "losing some rewards?"
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Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit) the vine-dresser "takes away" or prunes away. Probably, Jesus here refers to Judas. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that produce no fruit and branches that produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then later stopped producing fruit.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#485
Nov 12, 2015
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#485
valiant said:
Eternal life is to KNOW the Father and Him. Surely the knowing of Him IS a thing to grasp for my own. It is not a person, it is knowing God. And I should grasp it with all my being. For in knowing Him we have eternal life.




But not one who has eternal life. The branch that is cut off from the vine is one that is not really a true part of the vine, one that is not receiving life from the vine. It NEVER had eternal life..



Absolutely,



Absolutely.



true.



But you are still abiding, Otherwise you have been cut off.



Once you are cut off there can be no abiding.




You SHOULD keep abiding according to Jesus. It is the way of fruitfulness.



a child is not cut off because he has the wrong ideas.



lol but I don't think that. you may 'fall from grace' doctrinally, It doesn't mean you have ACTUALLY fallen from grace.
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He does not just wait to catch one not abiding and then scream, off with her head! He says, let me give this one another year. I will lift the branch up and prune some and see if it will bear fruit. The branch is not so dead as to warrant its' cutting off yet, in His estimation. Who could ask for more care or love or patience?
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#486
Mar 22, 2015
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#486
Stunnedbygrace said:
He does not just wait to catch one not abiding and then scream, off with her head! He says, let me give this one another year. I will lift the branch up and prune some and see if it will bear fruit. The branch is not so dead as to warrant its' cutting off yet, in His estimation. Who could ask for more care or love or patience?
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where does it say that? Not in my Bible. It says He prunes THOSE WHO BEAR FRUIT and cuts off those who don't..
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#487
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#487
mailmandan said:
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit) the vine-dresser "takes away" or prunes away. Probably, Jesus here refers to Judas. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that produce no fruit and branches that produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then later stopped producing fruit.
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Hey dan!
You're right, He didn't specifically address it there. But there are many places in scripture that do address it. The ones coming to mind at present are from one of the prophets, the ones where it says...if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does what is wrong....if an unrighteous man turns from his unrighteousness and does what is right....do you know the ones I mean? And there are many more that discuss it. Surely they are not all there because it is NOT a possibility...
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#488
Mar 22, 2015
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#488
Stunnedbygrace said:
Hey dan!
You're right, He didn't specifically address it there. But there are many places in scripture that do address it. The ones coming to mind at present are from one of the prophets, the ones where it says...if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does what is wrong....if an unrighteous man turns from his unrighteousness and does what is right....do you know the ones I mean? And there are many more that discuss it. Surely they are not all there because it is NOT a possibility...
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This was an argument against complacency. It is a different question altogether. But it was not addressed only to believers.

In the NT we are given more of God's side of things.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#489
Nov 12, 2015
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#489
valiant said:
where does it say that? Not in my Bible. It says He prunes THOSE WHO BEAR FRUIT and cuts off those who don't..
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I don't know, but I can go find it. You don't remember reading it? It goes like...should we cut off this branch? No, let me prune , etc., and give it another year to see if it will bear fruit.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#490
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#490
valiant said:
This was an argument against complacency. It is a different question altogether. But it was not addressed only to believers.
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A righteous man turning from his righteousness and doing what is wrong is about complacency?
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#492
Mar 22, 2015
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#492
Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't know, but I can go find it. You don't remember reading it? It goes like...should we cut off this branch? No, let me prune , etc., and give it another year to see if it will bear fruit.
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But that is not John 15. and it was a man not the Saviour who suggested it.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#495
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#495
So then, You are saying you must save yourself by abiding in him..
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I cannot get my head around salvation is always the issue.
A transformed life is the issue that I want, a way of walking in life and not death,
of being a blessing and not a curse, of knowing the anointing of the Lord and speaking
forth His life to benefit others.

Jesus brought the Kingdom of heaven to earth, the Holy of Holies to our hearts into
which the Holy Spirit dwells. We are called to be Christ to others, to bind up the
hurts and ills of others, to carry burdens, to serve, to be humble and true, to
take affliction and trouble and count it a privilege in the Lord.

This walk on cc has been such a blessing. I remember waking after being ill one
time, and the brilliant light and colours of a sunny day broke in and was dazzeling.
I would hope that in Christ we can see that blessing and all the great things he
pours on us each day, and not worry about the burdens and issues we have.

When you see the Lords love and freedom break out in a life anew it is a glorious
sight, in a world of sin and shame and hurt and pain, we forget too quickly and but
in praise and worship our hearts rejoice once more to know the victory of our King.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#496
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#496
Stunnedbygrace said:
So you do not understand in that parable that the vinedresser is Jesus? Who do you think he represents?
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In that parable He is referring to men. They express doubt. Jesus would KNOW whether they would believe or not. But you cannot mix two parables. Each parable stands by itself.

You have a strange idea about Israel. Rom 9-11 make quite clear that the large part of Israel never believed
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#497
#497
Stunnedbygrace said:
I do believe it. But I also believe the rest of scripture too.
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Two things. Don't interpret the explicit by the implicit, interpret the implicit by the explicit.


And as has already been pointed out to you, what you are referencing to support the lose of salvation has to do with fruit production, not salvation.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
#498
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#498
PeterJens said:
I cannot get my head around salvation is always the issue.
A transformed life is the issue that I want, a way of walking in life and not death,
of being a blessing and not a curse, of knowing the anointing of the Lord and speaking
forth His life to benefit others.

Jesus brought the Kingdom of heaven to earth, the Holy of Holies to our hearts into
which the Holy Spirit dwells. We are called to be Christ to others, to bind up the
hurts and ills of others, to carry burdens, to serve, to be humble and true, to
take affliction and trouble and count it a privilege in the Lord.

This walk on cc has been such a blessing. I remember waking after being ill one
time, and the brilliant light and colours of a sunny day broke in and was dazzeling.
I would hope that in Christ we can see that blessing and all the great things he
pours on us each day, and not worry about the burdens and issues we have.

When you see the Lords love and freedom break out in a life anew it is a glorious
sight, in a world of sin and shame and hurt and pain, we forget too quickly and but
in praise and worship our hearts rejoice once more to know the victory of our King.
Click to expand...
Precisely, That is where you fail, You do not see the importance of NT teaching to all. It has a broad scope and deals with men and women of all types and experiences, not just those who fit into your narrow viewpoint and experience.

God help you if you ever have to cope with the mentally disabled,
 
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PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#499
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#499
Do not remain in Christ, thrown away
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

No fruit, cut off
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

Promise
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

John 15

Simple clear cut parable.
Remain in Christ, you will bear fruit, you will have authority to ask for things
Abandon Christ and you will be cut off. Have no fruit, you will be cut off.

The key and only real issue is remaining in Christ.

Jesus is giving a clear warning. Why is it so hard to read the simple words, or
is this too blunt. The fruit of Christ is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
self control.

Is the truth people feel this is just too far for them to walk, and somehow at some
point in the future, something will happen. If one wants to compromise Christs words
you will discover the truth of them, as this is merely a spiritual warning of Gods treating
His people.

Now I have seen people come to church and then fall away. Is this them choosing or
God cutting them away? As this is all the Lords doing, it is a warning, not something
we exercise but His intentions and attitude.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#500
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#500
valiant said:
In that parable He is referring to men. They express doubt. Jesus would KNOW whether they would believe or not. But you cannot mix two parables. Each parable stands by itself.

You have a strange idea about Israel. Rom 9-11 make quite clear that the large part of Israel never believed
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Each parable does not stand by itself in a vacuum...they all make up the gospel and teaching of Jesus. He didn't teach a bunch of unconnected things and stories did He?
How would you explain the meaning of the parable?
I think I have understood you to be thinking it deals with doubt?
If this is right, I agree. Doubt is unbelief, mistrust, the opposite of faith or abiding.
 
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