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The Holy Spirit cannot affect us until we have accepted Christ. It has no effect on evil people, because it cannot associate with evil. Remember, God always sent evil spirits to the unsaved or non Jews and the Holy Spirit to the saved or repentant Jews.
I also believe in predestination, but I also believe in our ability to choose. God knew how our mind would work, what situations we would be in and what trials we would go through that would guide our choice. Thereby He already knew our choice and destiny. I believe that is how we are predestined. He put the personality in the place which would do what He wanted done in each situation. What a thought process He has. If you go too far it gets super complicated. I don't try.
I also believe in predestination, but I also believe in our ability to choose. God knew how our mind would work, what situations we would be in and what trials we would go through that would guide our choice. Thereby He already knew our choice and destiny. I believe that is how we are predestined. He put the personality in the place which would do what He wanted done in each situation. What a thought process He has. If you go too far it gets super complicated. I don't try.
S
Am I able to respond? I don't usually respond unless I am in the conversation.
So to your first statement about how the Holy Spirit can no affect us until we accepted Christ. Can you explain why the apostle says, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (2 Cor. 2:14).
If I understand this passage right, the natural person mocks the spiritual and does not accept, nor understands it.
Verses preceding says, "...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God" (2 Cor. 2:11, 12).
So you need the Holy Spirit first.
So to your first statement about how the Holy Spirit can no affect us until we accepted Christ. Can you explain why the apostle says, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (2 Cor. 2:14).
If I understand this passage right, the natural person mocks the spiritual and does not accept, nor understands it.
Verses preceding says, "...no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God" (2 Cor. 2:11, 12).
So you need the Holy Spirit first.
Hello Utah.
Here is a article on what many on the reform side of the debate believe. It covers most of the basics.
it states it better than I can( can't type ha ha ) . I hope that explains it brother.
Questions are raised nearly every time the biblical, Augustinian doctrine of election is presented, many having to do with divine justice, human free will, and other matters. To conclude our brief study of the biblical doctrine of predestination, we will consider one last question that people often ask when they hear that God, out of the good pleasure of His will alone, has chosen only some for salvation. This is the question of the necessity of evangelism. If the Lord has chosen those who will be saved, and if they are certain to be saved, what is the point of evangelism? Does not this teaching on predestination mean that we do not have to preach the gospel because God is going to save His elect anyway?
The simplest response is that we do have to preach the gospel, and we have to do so because the Lord has commanded us to preach the gospel. After all, in Matthew 28:18–20, Jesus commands His people to go into all the world and preach the gospel, making disciples of every nation. No one can hold to the Augustinian, or Calvinistic, doctrine of election without also believing in the sovereignty of God. He is the King of creation, with full authority to command our obedience. What He orders us to do, we must do, regardless of whether we fully understand it.
We evangelize because our Creator commands us to evangelize, but that is not the only reason we engage in evangelism and world missions. The doctrine of predestination means that the Lord does not ordain the end (salvation) without also ordaining the means to that end (the way in which people will receive salvation). God’s plan is comprehensive. He works out all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11), and the counsel of His will has determined that He will use His people to reach the lost and call them into His kingdom. He has decided that in the ordinary course of events, people will be saved through the explanation of the gospel on the part of Christians.
The necessity of preaching is found in many places in Scripture, including today’s passage, in which the Apostle Paul notes that the salvation that comes through faith in Christ alone will not be extended without the preaching of the gospel (Rom. 10:14–15). God sends His gospel to the world through the church and its preachers, teachers, and evangelists. This is a great privilege—to be used of the Lord in redeeming people for all eternity.
Blessings
Bill
Here is a article on what many on the reform side of the debate believe. It covers most of the basics.
it states it better than I can( can't type ha ha ) . I hope that explains it brother.
Questions are raised nearly every time the biblical, Augustinian doctrine of election is presented, many having to do with divine justice, human free will, and other matters. To conclude our brief study of the biblical doctrine of predestination, we will consider one last question that people often ask when they hear that God, out of the good pleasure of His will alone, has chosen only some for salvation. This is the question of the necessity of evangelism. If the Lord has chosen those who will be saved, and if they are certain to be saved, what is the point of evangelism? Does not this teaching on predestination mean that we do not have to preach the gospel because God is going to save His elect anyway?
The simplest response is that we do have to preach the gospel, and we have to do so because the Lord has commanded us to preach the gospel. After all, in Matthew 28:18–20, Jesus commands His people to go into all the world and preach the gospel, making disciples of every nation. No one can hold to the Augustinian, or Calvinistic, doctrine of election without also believing in the sovereignty of God. He is the King of creation, with full authority to command our obedience. What He orders us to do, we must do, regardless of whether we fully understand it.
We evangelize because our Creator commands us to evangelize, but that is not the only reason we engage in evangelism and world missions. The doctrine of predestination means that the Lord does not ordain the end (salvation) without also ordaining the means to that end (the way in which people will receive salvation). God’s plan is comprehensive. He works out all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11), and the counsel of His will has determined that He will use His people to reach the lost and call them into His kingdom. He has decided that in the ordinary course of events, people will be saved through the explanation of the gospel on the part of Christians.
The necessity of preaching is found in many places in Scripture, including today’s passage, in which the Apostle Paul notes that the salvation that comes through faith in Christ alone will not be extended without the preaching of the gospel (Rom. 10:14–15). God sends His gospel to the world through the church and its preachers, teachers, and evangelists. This is a great privilege—to be used of the Lord in redeeming people for all eternity.
Blessings
Bill
S
God knew our prayers ahead, even predestined them to come to our lips. I mean, doesn't one psalmist say in Psalm 139 that he knows what is on our tongue before we even say it? He commands prayer, even though he predestined it. 
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This is making an assumption that God is willing, or even logically able, to answer your prayers before you are actually born.
I don't think this is tenable, either biblically or philosophically.
God places us into temporal, linear time...
that is where he placed us, and what he created for us to live in.
Everything in scripture deals with man according to this temporal, linear time... and in no other way.
I think that if you have the personal habit of praying for dead people and assuming God looks into the future and answers your prayers before you are born... ummm.... I don't suppose that it's hurting anything.
But... I don't think there is any support for it either biblically or philosophically.
In fact, I think it may actually be to misunderstand the significance of creation... and misunderstand the SIGNIFICANCE of the particular dimensions of time and space which God INTENTIONALLY put mankind into.
So I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think it's in the bible.
I don't think it works either theologically or philosophically.
I'm sure you're a nice person.
If you're here to talk about Calvinism, that's fine, and I'm sure you only have good intentions.
But I wouldn't want anyone to assume this is how God deals with prayer...
because we ONLY have indications in scripture that God deals with prayer according to the normal dimension of temporal, linear time which he placed us into.
S
He has no substantial ground in Scripture, all he did was ask questions and make statements. I would like to hear his interpretation of Isaiah 46:8-11:
"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it."
"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it."
W
That is where you have been bamboozled......His Purpose. You are being taught that His Purpose is His sovereignty. His purpose is His SON.....................And His SON satisfied His JUSTICE/RIGHTEOUSNESS. His Sovereignty sent His SON and His Son satisfied His Justice.
So we are saved by His righteousness/ justice satisfied on the Cross. ALL are invited, but few choose the NARROW path of His SON.
WHOSOEVER believes shall be saved..............righteousness/equity. Because His Justice was satisfied on the Cross.
New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.
So we are saved by His righteousness/ justice satisfied on the Cross. ALL are invited, but few choose the NARROW path of His SON.
WHOSOEVER believes shall be saved..............righteousness/equity. Because His Justice was satisfied on the Cross.
New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.
S
By not isolating Scripture from other parts. You have to put all biblical text in light of others. You have to reconcile how prayer isn't predestined, yet, Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out," and, "...this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day," and, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:36, 39, 44). The word "draw" is the same word you use to draw fish in with a net.
Christ even said in vv. 63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."
Christ even said in vv. 63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."