Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Depleted]

Not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but I question a person's salvation when they can't spiritually discern John 3:16.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Study Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I have no problems raini


Did you notice anything wrong with that last thing I worte? Like, I didn't finish it?

Same problem you have. You tear out John 3:16 out of a long discourse on what Jesus said and pretend no one will notice you took it out of context.

There is a leading up to that verse and a following after it. Here is the followup:
[h=1]John 3:16-21 (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

Oh, no! He used the John 3:16 on us! What are are we going to do!

I went with "call him on it."

 

[Johnny_B]

God's justice:
Anyone who sins deserves separation from God, death, and hell.

Got a problem with that? Yeah?

No kidding. Now aren't you glad for the other part of God's justice that says an innocent man can take on the punishment of the guilty man? That was done in Jesus.

Now, do you really want God's justice or his mercy? He gave one to many and both to some! Because God is the one choosing who gets what. We are all guilty! We justly deserve hell. Got a problem with that?

Personally? God is just for sending people to hell!

Amen!!! there are no innocent people in hell, none, we all fall short of the glory of God.

My brother-in-law were talking and he was saying how he's having a hard time with God killing all those innocent people because David numbered the people, when I said there are no innocent people before God, he was like, oh yeah.

Don't you just love the kinsmen redeemer in the Law?

 

[Depleted]

Well we are curious what will you do troll?

Excuse me? Who is the troll? (Maybe it was so bad a mod already came to remove it all.)

And if that's not it? Really Sully? Tough day/night? As much as we agree and disagree, I have never seen you insult someone before.

Truly, truly, I am passionate about God chooses. VERY passionate about it. But I do not thinking if you get that wrong, (which thinking we choose God is wrong), it doesn't mean that you lose your salvation. God chose us because he chose us. He is not going to unchose us because we got something wrong. If he did that, then he'd not choose anyone.

I am 100% sure I am right. I am also 100% sure that I am wrong about some of the things I'm 100% sure I think are right. Can you not say the same thing? And do you honestly believe whoever has this wrong, even if we love God and follow him will end up in hell for getting this wrong?

You talked about fairness earlier, and I truly got what you meant, even when I disagreed. I did not then suddenly assume you were a troll, nor do I think you think I'm a troll. So, please, when you're having a better day (or sooner, if you're having a heap of bad days in a row), I think YOU will feel better if you asked for forgiveness for whomever you thought was a troll, (unless, like I said before there was a troll that I missed because of super-modding in action. lol)

Disagreeing doesn't mean ending fellowshipping. It means disagreeing! (Even if I'm 100% right. lol)

 

[Depleted]

The last time I was here, I was still in that "cage-stage." Since then, I have no favor in debating unless there is a genuine dialogue between opinions and sides.

Cage-stage. Good phrase. Never heard it before, so had to look it up.

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/cage-stage-calvinism-what-it-and-what-causes-it/

 

[Depleted]

As much as you try, you cannot get "the world" to mean "the elect"

I couldn't. Jesus did.

 

[Depleted]

Even a cursory study of the phrase "the world" shows it doesn't refer to each and every person whoever lived.

I gave you the proper sense of the meaning, and returned to you the rule you applied; that it is in fact you who should be questioning your own salvation: You don't grasp John 3:16.

The bottom line is you hate God's plan, hate His Sovereign electing grace, and hate the fact that Him loving "the world" meant, in context, those who were not only Jews, but other. He has chosen, and He has passed over many. His atonement is limited to His people; Matthew 1:21.

And it is noted, you have no exegesis at all, only ridicule veiled in presumption and tradition. Grow up.

In all fairness to Stephen, I think he does a fair job with John 3:16. Just as long as verses 18-21 are ignored. (And, they often are.)

 

[Depleted]

I appreciate your integrity and agree with you. However, please understand there are those who are not what they portray. All good here. That's what the ignore feature is there for.

I get that, however, a good lie is 90% truth with 10% lie. If you're going to expose a lie, expose the 10%, not the 90%. If you feel he isn't who he appears to be then show that when it is happening, not when it's not happening. And don't put someone down when they aren't deserving it.

 

[Depleted]

Why? Your prayer has no standing if everyone is predestined.

Yes it does. Prayer is changing our will to God's will. It would be our will, if we didn't pray for anything but what we want. It becomes God's will when we lean on his mercy. So even if God doesn't give someone else mercy, (and, again, he doesn't give the list out on who he will save), we remember how merciful God was to us. It is a time to remember what God has done and we want more of him, even if he doesn't have mercy on that person.

Honest! Don't you feel like you were a prisoner on Death Row and God gave your sentence to someone else? (Not just a feeling -- reality.) Isn't your desire automatically to run around every cell on Death Row to tell the other prisoners the great deal you got because they can have it too? Don't you just want to shout it from the rooftops?

And if so, doesn't that too say something about God even knowing he's not commuting every other prisoner on Death Row? You do agree he's not, right? So where is the problem?

My dad is dying. He's not a believer! It breaks my heart to say those two things, and now it is impossible to reach him with the Good News again. (Dementia, so he no longer remembers a sentence after it is said. He can't even remember the first half as the last half is being said.) God didn't give me the list of whom he will save. Do you really think that's going to stop me from praying for Dad?

 

[Depleted]

In post 57 you stated you pray everyone will come to the truth. The way I see it, if we are predestined, regardless of destination, prayers are moot. However, if we are not predestined, prayer can indeed play a vital role as to whether or not someone comes to the truth.

Why? So you can say, "Not only did I save myself, I saved that person too?"

 

[Depleted]

The Holy Spirit cannot affect us until we have accepted Christ. It has no effect on evil people, because it cannot associate with evil. Remember, God always sent evil spirits to the unsaved or non Jews and the Holy Spirit to the saved or repentant Jews.

I also believe in predestination, but I also believe in our ability to choose. God knew how our mind would work, what situations we would be in and what trials we would go through that would guide our choice. Thereby He already knew our choice and destiny. I believe that is how we are predestined. He put the personality in the place which would do what He wanted done in each situation. What a thought process He has. If you go too far it gets super complicated. I don't try.

By your logic, who got the Holy Spirit to do this?
[FONT=&quot]1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

God predestined our prayers...Ok you forgot chapter and verse. Oh wait, He knows what's in our tongue kind of like He knows if we will receive Him? Aka omniscient foresight.

He knows all right:
John 3:[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

This is making an assumption that God is willing, or even logically able, to answer your prayers before you are actually born.

I don't think this is tenable, either biblically or philosophically.


God places us into temporal, linear time...
that is where he placed us, and what he created for us to live in.

Everything in scripture deals with man according to this temporal, linear time... and in no other way.




I think that if you have the personal habit of praying for dead people and assuming God looks into the future and answers your prayers before you are born... ummm.... I don't suppose that it's hurting anything.

But... I don't think there is any support for it either biblically or philosophically.
In fact, I think it may actually be to misunderstand the significance of creation... and misunderstand the SIGNIFICANCE of the particular dimensions of time and space which God INTENTIONALLY put mankind into.
So I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think it's in the bible.

I don't think it works either theologically or philosophically.



I'm sure you're a nice person.
If you're here to talk about Calvinism, that's fine, and I'm sure you only have good intentions.
But I wouldn't want anyone to assume this is how God deals with prayer...
because we ONLY have indications in scripture that God deals with prayer according to the normal dimension of temporal, linear time which he placed us into.

If I decide to pray for Albert Einstein, how is that God answering my prayer before I'm born? Einstein is dead. I'm not. And God isn't linear. He's omnipresent.

I haven't prayed for Einstein, but I have prayed for prayer request about an upcoming surgery, even after the surgery (usually before I find out how it went), because I really am going that God doesn't care that I didn't see the request until 11 AM, but the surgery was scheduled for 5:30 AM. He's counting my prayer like he counted all the others.

 

[Depleted]

How is it clear? It's scripturally sequential. He predestines based on what He foresees or foreknows.

Romans 9:[FONT=&quot]10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

To say that we do not have freewill is to call God a liar. Jesus explained that when the Seed (which is the Word of God) falls on different soils (hearts) how those types of soils respond. Our hearts can change for the better or for the worse- but it is our choice to make.

Adam and Eve CHOSE to eat of the forbidden fruit. Why would God tell us to have Self-Control if He is the One Who determines our behavior? Can you tell your hand to raise up and touch your head? Of course- and by your own decision- just as your other words or actions.

God chose/predestined those who would choose to obey Him, of their own freewill, to go to heaven. Is it up to police to decide who goes to jail and who doesn't? No- those who commit crime go to jail, while law abiding citizens do not. So you can say criminals are predestined for jail. It is based on their freewill decisions.

Actually to say we have free will is the lie.

As for prisoners? We were all justly condemned for our sins. We were on Death Row. So what happened? Did we choose to leave or did Jesus free us?

 

[trofimus]

We freely choose what God has predestined to happen.

 

[duewell]

matthew 16 24-27


duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
the rainbow connection

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Then why were they invited?

They were invited because He doesn't want anyone to perish...

 

[preacher4truth]

Then why share the Gospel? Folks will meet their fate regardless.

No, we obey the LORD in witnessing:

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - 2 Timothy 2:8-10

...thus we preach, for the sake of the elect, and we do not know who these are.

 

[preacher4truth]

In all fairness to Stephen, I think he does a fair job with John 3:16. Just as long as verses 18-21 are ignored. (And, they often are.)

No problem, but I don't think a fair job is the objective or good enough. The concentration is on "whosoever" as if the word does away with the fact of only the elect will be saved. That is the intention and many have attempted to John 3:16 away other Biblical truths with it. That is not quite the 2 Timothy 2:15 standard.

Then there is the misunderstanding of the phrase "the world". With all that mess I cannot call the handling of that text a fair job.