I think we need to define "believe" because to me, it appears we have whittled down "believe" to mean: believe that I will live forever or "believe" that God exists. And meanwhile, we play loose with hypocrisy about all else He said. We worry about 401k's, amassing enough for retirement, worry over the economy and losing our job. Those are the things unbelievers worry about but we aren't supposed to. And we wouldn't if we really believed what He said concerning it. So if we don't believe Him or follow Him in this earthly matter of money/provision, how can we say we follow Him? By making listening, doing, following unnecessary to salvation?
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This is ugly brother. He doesn't agree with you. Some humility in dealing with matters that are difficult and way over our heads is needed. If you think you know it all you know nothing. That's a verse somewhere. You have to let others express their beliefs and where they currently are in their understanding. He's not saying anything awful or anything that many other godly men don't believe too.
If men are born upright, why do we labor so hard over small children and teaching them not to beat each other up over toys? If men are born upright, without evil in them, why do they always choose selfishness and self and have to be taught concern over others? Good morning by the way, Samuel. Haven't run across you in a while. Hope you had a nice Easter. 
When mankind fell in the garden part of the curse of sin was that man received the knowledge of good and evil. This makes it incumbent upon man to decide if he will choose good or evil. This is clearly demonstrated in John 3 by the very words of Jesus.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
The Holy Spirit makes the word of God powerful in the hearts of men.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
A better understanding of Gods mercy reveals that the common understanding of predestination is incorrect because God allows men to choose. This is so that men have only themselves to blame if they refuse to believe in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
The Holy Spirit makes the word of God powerful in the hearts of men.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
A better understanding of Gods mercy reveals that the common understanding of predestination is incorrect because God allows men to choose. This is so that men have only themselves to blame if they refuse to believe in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God doesn't predestine some people for hell and others for heaven as if they have no choice. That's nonsense and a clear mis-understanding of what predestination means.
God commands all people to repent and believe in the gospel. He would be breaking His own words to now say - "NO, you can't be included. - I didn't mean you - you have to go to hell."
To say this is true means IMO - we have no understanding of the "why" of the gospel in the first place and do not know the character of our loving Father yet like we will in the future.
All people are included in Christ's work on the cross - just like we were included in what Adam did. Now we can choose when we hear the message of Christ to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.
Romans 5:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnationto all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13
God commands all people to repent and believe in the gospel. He would be breaking His own words to now say - "NO, you can't be included. - I didn't mean you - you have to go to hell."
To say this is true means IMO - we have no understanding of the "why" of the gospel in the first place and do not know the character of our loving Father yet like we will in the future.
All people are included in Christ's work on the cross - just like we were included in what Adam did. Now we can choose when we hear the message of Christ to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.
Romans 5:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnationto all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13
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What you just said goes directly against Jesus' teachings. Not only that, but God answering yes to someone's prayer does not violate anyone's free will. That simply does not make sense.
And as far as being an open theist, I never heard the term before so I had to look it up, and it basically describes my views.
And as far as being an open theist, I never heard the term before so I had to look it up, and it basically describes my views.
Right, God doesn't predestine some to hell, that's a misnomer. He does however predestine His elect to heaven, Ephesians 1, and to be conformed to the image of His Son, Romans 8.
And by the way, choice doesn't save, there is no such thing as decisional regeneration. People dont' choose their way into heaven; John 1:13, James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1ff; Romans 9:11ff. The Scriptures deny this.
The choice of the lost is to always reject Christ unless God does a work in their heart; Acts 16:14, and God does this work in the elect whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1. He thus only draws those to Himself whom He wills to draw, Matthew 11:25-30; John 6:44; John 6:65, Romans 9:20ff.
Also, let's look at the definition of predestination: To determine beforehand, to limit in advance; to appoint.
So, apparently God has determined a limited number, and it is based on choice, because it is His choice and it is He who has chosen, not us; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15. To be fair, the texts here will not be addressed since they refute decisional regeneration outright, they refute the assumption that God predestined some to hell, so, instead of accepting the texts Scripture will be pitted against these Scriptures in order to hold to misnomers and tradition set forth by Robert Sandeman, Andrew Fuller, C. G. Finney and other false teachers.
And by the way, choice doesn't save, there is no such thing as decisional regeneration. People dont' choose their way into heaven; John 1:13, James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1ff; Romans 9:11ff. The Scriptures deny this.
The choice of the lost is to always reject Christ unless God does a work in their heart; Acts 16:14, and God does this work in the elect whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1. He thus only draws those to Himself whom He wills to draw, Matthew 11:25-30; John 6:44; John 6:65, Romans 9:20ff.
Also, let's look at the definition of predestination: To determine beforehand, to limit in advance; to appoint.
So, apparently God has determined a limited number, and it is based on choice, because it is His choice and it is He who has chosen, not us; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15. To be fair, the texts here will not be addressed since they refute decisional regeneration outright, they refute the assumption that God predestined some to hell, so, instead of accepting the texts Scripture will be pitted against these Scriptures in order to hold to misnomers and tradition set forth by Robert Sandeman, Andrew Fuller, C. G. Finney and other false teachers.
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
1Tim 2: 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Eph 6: 5Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. 9And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Romans 2: 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
Predestination produces partiality, which God has no part of.
1Tim 2: 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Eph 6: 5Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. 9And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Romans 2: 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
Predestination produces partiality, which God has no part of.
okie dokie..I'll play this game for a bit to see where the logical conclusion is.
So, in this theory that God predestines the "Elect' and they are in heaven by default where do all the ones He rejected and did not predestined for them to go to heaven. Where do they go? Is there other "places" for those to go to that God rejects?
In Romans 8:30 - Paul is simply saying those He knew would accept Him as Savior are predestinated to become just like Jesus. God does not predestined anyone to go to hell and force them there. They either chose Him or their own way.
God loves all people in the world and has made a way for including "all men" in Christ's work. Now they choose to either believe or not. Scripture is full of this "believing" as being a part of accepting what He has already done.
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved remains true for all men.
So, in this theory that God predestines the "Elect' and they are in heaven by default where do all the ones He rejected and did not predestined for them to go to heaven. Where do they go? Is there other "places" for those to go to that God rejects?
In Romans 8:30 - Paul is simply saying those He knew would accept Him as Savior are predestinated to become just like Jesus. God does not predestined anyone to go to hell and force them there. They either chose Him or their own way.
God loves all people in the world and has made a way for including "all men" in Christ's work. Now they choose to either believe or not. Scripture is full of this "believing" as being a part of accepting what He has already done.
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved remains true for all men.
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Humm open theism holds that God does not know the future,I dont believe this. Nor do I believe in pre-destination. Im not sure which boat that leaves me in.
The elect are simply those that do believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness which is in Christ when they hear the message of Christ Himself.
Game? This isn't a game, it's the revealed Word of God. Maybe it is a game to you.
You can play games if you so desire, but I won't play along. That, and you've not addressed the Scriptures given, in fact, you rushed to your tradition and responded without considering what God said, and, that it refutes your notions. You didn't take time to see that the passages provided refute your position. And they do, but, you'll have none of that, right?
Yes, God predestines the elect, and apparently you just don't like that. Are you being the Romans 9:20 man? Yes, you in fact are. The further point is God has mercy on whom He wills, and that isn't upon all people, thus, in His Sovereignty (being God) He passes over some.
Really? Where is that in the text? That's right, it's not there, you're reading it into the text and adding to the pure Word of God your tradition. You really need to stop doing that. Nowhere in that text does it say or even imply your teachings. But of course, that doesn't matter to you that you've added it in there, you'll simply trudge forward against the Word. No biggie to you to just add what you want to the Word. Is that the game you're referring to? It appears you are playing games. With God's Word.
I've given you many Scriptures that show salvation isn't by human will or decision. You reject those Scriptures for your tradition.
Oh, I didn't know you were a Universalist. That helps me further know where you are getting your errors from.
Scripture rejects that salvation is by choice or human will. Again, I've given you many Scriptures showing this to be true, but you'll have none of that.
Yes, it remains true because it applies to the elect whom He has chosen. None will call upon Him until He has done His work in seeking and finding His lost sheep.