Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[preacher4truth]

And as far as being an open theist, I never heard the term before so I had to look it up, and it basically describes my views.

So, you believe God doesn't know all things and that He learns?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

God doesn't predestine some people for hell and others for heaven as if they have no choice. That's nonsense and a clear mis-understanding of what predestination means.

God commands all people to repent and believe in the gospel. He would be breaking His own words to now say - "NO, you can't be included. - I didn't mean you - you have to go to hell."

To say this is true means IMO - we have no understanding of the "why" of the gospel in the first place and do not know the character of our loving Father yet like we will in the future.

All people are included in Christ's work on the cross - just like we were included in what Adam did. Now we can choose when we hear the message of Christ to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.



Romans 5:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnationto all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13

So then, you were saved through your own wise choosing? And a man who perishes has not chosen wisely? Do you believe your faith was a gift from God?

 

[kaylagrl]

Us with our human natural minds trying to figure out God is a foolishness endeavor just waiting to happen. To say that some He will not receive even though Christ died for them - this violates the very nature of our loving Father who desires all men to come to repentance and believe in His Son. Sadly scripture is clear - some refuse to believe and receive Christ.

The elect are simply those that do believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness which is in Christ when they hear the message of Christ Himself.

Yes,its clear that some reject Him and it is a choice. The criminals on the cross both had the choice to follow Him,one rejected Him the other did not. I believe God knows the future,but that does not mean He bends us to His will.I believe He allows us to make the choice.

 

[Grace777x70]

So then, you were saved through your own wise choosing? And a man who perishes has not chosen wisely? Do you believe your faith was a gift from God?

........I was saved because of the great love and mercy that God has for me and when I believed in the message of Christ when I heard the gospel being preached - I received the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all things are from God! All good gifts come down from the Father.

For God to choose for some to go to hell - it violates His very nature and it is indicative that we don't know the "why" of the gospel in the first place.

Do you not think it is wise to choose the sacrifice of Christ for our sins?

 

[Utah]

He has no substantial ground in Scripture, all he did was ask questions and make statements. I would like to hear his interpretation of Isaiah 46:8-11:

You don't have to be God to know certain things. If I place a steak in front of my dogs, I know full well they will eat it. God knew many people would walk away from His divine presence. They weren't predestined; if anything, this shows those folks had free will. That's why God was angry with them, because they chose to walk away from Him. If God became angry at people walking away from Him because God made it happen, that makes God psychopathic -- and He's not.

 

[Adstar]

I have not been on this chat in 3 years but I felt heavily compelled in my heart to write this today.


I have always struggled to make sense of the predestination verses. (Romans 8: 29-30, Matthew 11:27, Psalm 65:4, Romans 9, etc.) To make sense of it I tried to think that God chose people to be saved based of knowing the future and seeing people choosing Him, hence the “foreknowing” but now I know how flawed that way of thinking is. In regards to free will I used to think how God made the way of salvation clear and just waited for us to accept like a gift. I now know how flawed that way of thinking is as well.


Yes, these predestination verses helped me to better understand but I still fought against it because I didn’t want to believe that God would choose some and not others. Ultimately I wanted to believe that I had a choice. How selfish and prideful I was to think that way.


It was not a verse about predestination that opened the door to the truth but actually verses about our utter depravity of sin:
Psalm 53:2-3
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.



I have read these verses before but about 1-2 years ago these verses really hit home to how sinful I really am. We always want to find some kind of good in us, some kind of tiny little ray of light (even if it’s the act of choosing God) and to show God saying, “Look, I did this! I chose You!”


Ultimately that is pride. It is us trying to believe that we are capable of goodness outside of Christ. In reality that is not possible. Even as Christians we are filled with sin: our actions, out thoughts, even our prayers are tainted with sin. There is no escape, no explaining away, and no changing it. We are filled with sin at all times.


In addition, because we are always filled with sin, our base nature is to reject anything that is of Christ. We were born into rebellion and live on in ultimate rebellion before becoming a Christian. It is impossible for anything in us to choose the salvation of Christ. No matter how free, wonderful, loving etc…..it is impossible. Our sin nature would never allow it. Evil would never choose its destruction which is Christ.


That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?


I don’t know. Any you know what? I am ok with that. I trust God that He knows how it works and that gives me peace. Confusion is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you just have to lay it at the feet of Jesus and say, “Lord, You know.”
There is song that I have found by a Christian rapper named Shai Linne called “Election”. I highly recommend you give it a listen as it explains Election/Predestination quite well. I know you might have heard how free will is like someone who is floating out at sea and salvation is God throwing a rope at us and all we have to do is grab it. There is a part of this song that explains how flawed that line of thinking is:


“Some people say that we were drowning in the ocean
Barely floating until God threw us the rope then
Our free will helped us as we groped
Our faith is the hand that grabbed the rope and God put us back in the boat
Nope! Without apology I deny that analogy
Reality- we were dead at the bottom of the sea
I was a swollen corpse with hope no more
Until Jehovah the LORD dove from the shore to the ocean floor
Yeah, I was a corpse and I smelled like it
I’ll keep it simple, why did God choose me? Because He felt like it!
He brought me out, not an act of my volition
Breathed life into my lungs and didn’t ask for my permission”


I was a corpse at the bottom of the ocean. I could not grab that rope nor would I ever want to even if I could.


Honestly, I so glad that I had no say in my salvation. How awful would it be that God had to depend on our choice? That is like stripping power out of God’s hands and placing it in ours. Knowing how utterly sinful and disgusting I am, I am so thankful that it could only be by the grace of God that I could ever be saved. Depending on myself to accomplish any type of good is horrifying because I know that I am not capable of producing any good at all outside of Christ.


Lord Jesus, thank You!


I apologize for this being so long haha. It was just on my heart all morning as I was cleaning the house.

It is so sad to read someone has become a Calvinist. So very sad...

 

[Utah]

Essentially you made Utah's point when you cited Psalms and the verse that God knows what is on our tongue. He knows what is on our tongue, He did not put the words and intent upon our tongue.

Spot on accurate, bro!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh kayla, you made me laugh! It is very difficult, isn't it? I have mostly thought of it like...blind men don't just choose to see. But after their blindness is healed, they do have some choices. Before, they could only go the way others were leading them. But now they can make their own choices for which way to go.

I know it is more involved than that, because we choose what we DON'T want sometimes, as Paul said, but then that proves that we agree to what God says but then find ourselves not doing what we hunger to do but instead doing the exact opposite.

 

[Utah]

Wait, what? I don't doubt that God foresaw what was on our tongue, but it is clear from the overall passages of Scripture that God predestined that person to pray such words. Have you any explanation to the verse I brought up?

Its not clear, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You think God is a puppet master? Come on, man. God is greater than that, and the gift of life is greater than that. Earlier you mocked John 3:16. You think you were predestined by God to mock His Word? God is not the author of confusion.

 

[John146]

Right, God doesn't predestine some to hell, that's a misnomer. He does however predestine His elect to heaven, Ephesians 1, and to be conformed to the image of His Son, Romans 8.

If God has not provided the lost a way unto salvation, then their destiny is hell. They have been predestined for hell. The destiny is set before it comes.

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for the believer in Christ. Predestination guarantees those in Christ will be adopted as sons and be conformed to the image of His Son. Scripture NEVER states that man is predestined unto salvation. It's simply not there.

 

[John146]

Spot on accurate, bro!

All throughout Scripture, God has changed His mind on matters based upon man's response to His word. We are all dead in sins and by nature children of wrath. The only way to change our position is by responding to the word of God, the gospel of Christ. When we believe upon the gospel of Christ, we are no longer children of wrath and God's outlook on us changes from dead in sin to alive in Christ.

 

[Utah]

You have to reconcile how prayer isn't predestined

This one can't make up his mind whether or not things are predestined.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes,its clear that some reject Him and it is a choice. The criminals on the cross both had the choice to follow Him,one rejected Him the other did not. I believe God knows the future,but that does not mean He bends us to His will.I believe He allows us to make the choice.

I agree...we can see the whole gospel message with the thieves on the cross and in "being with Jesus".

Jesus was crucified and the two thieves were crucified "with Him."

This signifies the whole world being with Christ. One thief chose to believe the other didn't. There is a vast difference between a universal salvation in which Christ includes the whole world in His work as scripture is abundantly clear - and everyone is now saved.

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved still is true.

My personal view on predestination and the debate around it has as much significance to it as knowing the ant population in the Amazon jungle.

We preach Christ and Him crucified and persuade all men to believe in Him - that He loves them dearly and His grace is for them all. Only believe and they will see the glory/goodness of God. Acts 18:4 & Acts 28:23 & 2 Cor. 5:11

 

[Stephen63]

All those predestination people are all aglow about their doctrine until you ask them to prove which one they are.

 

[kaylagrl]

Oh kayla, you made me laugh! It is very difficult, isn't it? I have mostly thought of it like...blind men don't just choose to see. But after their blindness is healed, they do have some choices. Before, they could only go the way others were leading them. But now they can make their own choices for which way to go.

I know it is more involved than that, because we choose what we DON'T want sometimes, as Paul said, but then that proves that we agree to what God says but then find ourselves not doing what we hunger to do but instead doing the exact opposite.

I'll be reading along here in my boat and make a comment or two perhaps. Just reading both sides so far. But I grew up Pentecostal so I dont lean to the Calvinist side of the boat.But I still fellowship and fish with those that do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

........I was saved because of the great love and mercy that God has for me and when I believed in the message of Christ when I heard the gospel being preached - I received the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all things are from God! All good gifts come down from the Father.

For God to choose for some to go to hell - it violates His very nature and it is indicative that we don't know the "why" of the gospel in the first place.

Do you not think it is wise to choose the sacrifice of Christ for our sins?

I think it is unwise to take the great gift of my faith and boast as if it was from within me that it came. And I think it is unwise to beat someone else because they have not yet received that gift, as if I had anything to do with my having received it. I didn't make a choice to see, I just saw one day. After 42 years, I just saw. I am too scared to condemn those who are still blind. I just pray for them. I'm one little old lady who was shown great kindness. I don't know if He will heal someone elses blindness. I just don't. But the one thing I won't do is condemn them or blame them as if all I've received wasn't a gift but was instead of my choosing.

These are difficult things for all of us to discuss. Very deep and difficult. But I like discussing deep things with you because you always deal with others respectfully.

 

[Utah]

So his plans, his will, his purposes are based on us? How fallible is our God then! He must make decisions on the ground of his creatures! We have so much influence over our God, we should be the ones that are called God.

You have said it, but you do not believe. Of course it is God's will -- His desire, that all will be saved, but God allows us free will. God answers every prayer; sometimes its yes; sometimes its no; depending on His sovereignty, but in the end, we have free will.

I make decisions for my dogs, and many decisions are based on their wants, but I have to take into account what's best for them. If they could, they'd eat chocolate all day every day, but chocolate is deadly to them so they are not allowed to eat it. That's denying them for their own good.

However, when I leave for work my dogs jump up on the kitchen counter and eat loads of chocolate, they will suffer the consequences via sickness and death. Though I am their master, they have free will.

 

[John146]

I think it is unwise to take the great gift of my faith and boast as if it was from within me that it came. And I think it is unwise to beat someone else because they have not yet received that gift, as if I had anything to do with my having received it. I didn't make a choice to see, I just saw one day. After 42 years, I just saw. I am too scared to condemn those who are still blind. I just pray for them. I'm one little old lady who was shown great kindness. I don't know if He will heal someone elses blindness. I just don't. But the one thing I won't do is condemn them or blame them as if all I've received wasn't a gift but was instead of my choosing.

These are difficult things for all of us to discuss. Very deep and difficult. But I like discussing deep things with you because you always deal with others respectfully.

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You don't have to be God to know certain things. If I place a steak in front of my dogs, I know full well they will eat it. God knew many people would walk away from His divine presence. They weren't predestined; if anything, this shows those folks had free will. That's why God was angry with them, because they chose to walk away from Him. If God became angry at people walking away from Him because God made it happen, that makes God psychopathic -- and He's not.

The thought I had when I considered your post might be hard for me to explain...it was like...Jesus was actually madder and more abrupt with those who were religious than with those who didn't believe at all. He even said, if you were blind you wouldn't be condemned but since you say you can see you are condemned...remember that verse? I don't know, maybe you won't understand what I was seeing.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think it is unwise to take the great gift of my faith and boast as if it was from within me that it came. And I think it is unwise to beat someone else because they have not yet received that gift, as if I had anything to do with my having received it. I didn't make a choice to see, I just saw one day. After 42 years, I just saw. I am too scared to condemn those who are still blind. I just pray for them. I'm one little old lady who was shown great kindness. I don't know if He will heal someone elses blindness. I just don't. But the one thing I won't do is condemn them or blame them as if all I've received wasn't a gift but was instead of my choosing.

These are difficult things for all of us to discuss. Very deep and difficult. But I like discussing deep things with you because you always deal with others respectfully.

Who boasts within themselves what the Lord has done for them because of His great love and mercy?

It is all by God's doing. Our part is to believe in what He says is true. It's the Abraham kind of faith.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

I agree whole-heartly about condemning those that have not seen yet and pray too for the Father to reveal Christ to them. My own personal belief is that God doesn't send anyone away from Him without them choosing to reject Christ. He will find a way to let them see what they are doing.


And thank you for your kind words...I appreciate them...