Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[eternally-gratefull]

Our only difference on this particular matter is that you think your faith comes from yourself and I think it comes from God

No I think it came from God. If Gopd did not convict me of my sin. My judgment, and his sons righteousness. I would never had a means to repent. I would never had anything to place my faith in, I would be still trusting self. And being my own God.

There is a verse I can't find for some reason. It says something like...before the coming of this faith, we were under the law until the faith that was to come to us was revealed. And when I see my faith slipping or wavering, I call to Him. He answers me. I don't think He would do that if I was to find that power to believe within myself. I think He would say the faith part comes from me so why am I asking Him for help with something that is my part and that comes from me.

Anyway, whether you think your faith comes from yourself or whether you think it comes from God, what matters is that you have it. And if you have it and it is increasing, you'll be okay.

Under law is having faith in self. Or as many call it, works oriented. For to work in our true salvation. It has to convict you and show you your condemnation.. and your total need for Christ. But as Rom 1 says, even the lost knows they are condemned. They are not ignorant of that fact. Thats why their is no excuse, they too have the means to repent and have faith in God.

But yes I agree.. Faith is what matters. We have been saved by faith.

 

[PeterJens]

Obeying the law is seen as trusting in oneself, ones own behaviour as justification.
So any obedient behaviour which results in being good is by itself self justification.

Self justication or belief in anything good is seen as replacing Christs work so is evil.

Doing things because they are good is not prized at all. Jesus empowering us to walk
righteously, being righteous is seen as a delusion and therefore evil.

It is almost like saying we are devils only God is good, and in realising this we have salvation.
The caviate that we become righteous has been removed, we stay devils and only the
deceived believe empowered and reborn by Christ we could be acceptable.

The deeper you learn how lost you are in sin, the more you realise you need Christ so are
more spiritual in this world. There is no sense of going from one state of glory to another,
it is one state of lostness to the next.

Now demons know this is true for themselves, because there is no salvation or transformation
of them. How is it believers have been deceived into believing the same as them?

It is no wonder they hate those who are walking in the power of the Holy Spirit and finding
real victory over sinful behaviour and knowing God giving them insight and power to love others
from the heart, to minister to real need, to not be overwhelmed by seas of emotion and despair.

It has got so bad, though I follow Christ and believe in the cross, repent and follow Jesus they
would disown me from knowing God at all. By their fruit you will know them. If they condemn
righteous acts done by people, they are no friends of God, because God looks on these with favour.

This is a poisonous theology, which shows itself by making good people enemies, and causing
endless disputes over simple issues of sinful behaviour and repentance.

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
2 Cor 10:5

 

[1ofthem]

Several people have told what it is. The dictionary tells what it is. You are bound and determined to invent your own definition. Nah. You've closed your ears and are now blaming us for understanding it.

Repeating a lie doesn't suddenly make it the truth.

I don't believe in predestination. I'm not blaming anybody for understanding anything...I'm saying I do not agree with it.

So where am I repeating a lie?

 

[1ofthem]

Especially when you ignore everything everyone had written so far.

I'm not ignoring anything anyone said...I do not agree with it and that is the difference.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You're not lying, sister. These are difficult things to struggle with. All most of us really want is for the verses to fit together, not that we pick a group of verses to the exclusion of the others that seem to be in opposition to the ones we've chosen. We want to understand them all together. It is common to all of us to read and see what appear to be contradictions.

 

[Grace777x70]

The sky is blue...

Jesus said to seek first the kingdom of God and "His righteousness". Self-justification is the opposite of Christ's righteousness.

God "predestined" us to be made the righteousness of God in Christ and not try to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness. D.I.Y. self-righteousness is trying to live by the law - the law being your own self-effort to achieve and maintain righteousness.

Self-righteousness mindsets always stumble at the righteousness of God in Christ and think by what they do or don't do - they become righteous. Get this wrong and we create a religion of self-works trying to justify ourselves and thus nullify the very grace of God in Christ from operating in our lives like it should.

God "predestined" us to receive the "gift of righteousness" which only comes by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on our behalf.

There are fruits of righteousness but they do not make one righteous. The fruit of righteousness comes because we are already righteous in Christ.

Christ alone makes us righteous. Works-based religion always thinks that if they can "mimic" righteousness - then they will be righteous.

Romans 10:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. ( The law is self-effort in doing things to create our own righteousness )

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

God has "predestined" us to live by faith for righteousness which only comes in Christ's work - not works-righteousness. That is simply the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and it is the world's system. Come out from amongst the world and be separate because Christ has made you righteous.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

All I truly know is that God revealed Himself to me and if He hadn't, I'd have gone on in my unbelief that He even existed. I have things that I can't wrap my head around just like you do, 1ofthem. And one of those things is that I know I didn't just choose to believe it was all true. He revealed Himself to me. That is why I believed. Without having met Him, I could choose to believe it was true all I wanted, but there would have been no certainty. And I can't wrap my head around anyone He reveals Himself to choosing to NOT believe He exists. I don't think it is possible. But then, I don't think believing He exists is enough. I don't think either that believing I will live forever is enough.

 

[Stephen63]

The sky is blue...

Jesus said to seek first the kingdom of God and "His righteousness". Self-justification is the opposite of Christ's righteousness.

God "predestined" us to be made the righteousness of God in Christ and not try to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness. D.I.Y. self-righteousness is trying to live by the law - the law being your own self-effort to achieve and maintain righteousness.

Self-righteousness mindsets always stumble at the righteousness of God in Christ and think by what they do or don't do - they become righteous. Get this wrong and we create a religion of self-works trying to justify ourselves and thus nullify the very grace of God in Christ from operating in our lives like it should.

Since you want to talk about self-righteousness, you can explain how Hyp******ers like yourself establish your own righteousness through your doctrine that grace does everything & eliminates the "believer" from doing anything.

1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

BTW, this scripture is for more than the Jew.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a security that comes with knowing the truth about Christ and what He has already done. This security brings proper maturity.

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

God "predestined" us to be secure in Christ and that He said He will never leave nor forsake us. Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16

I do believe in the things that God has "predestined" us to be because of His great love for all of us and because of His work done in Christ to remove everything that has distorted our view of Him, ourselves and others.

God "predestined in Christ" that everything that has come to destroy the object of His love - the people of the world - would experience His vengeance on it. The vengeance of God is a beautiful thing because it is a manifestation of His love in action.

 

[Grace777x70]

To keep the malice and slander down to a minimum - I will post again as I have many times in the past about "doing" for believers in Christ so that the truth can be seen for what it really is and not the distortion being said by deceitfulness. Bitterness and malice and slander are just as much walking in the flesh as living a homosexual lifestyle.and just as defiling to ourselves and others.

The sky is blue...

Hopefully this will help the readers......

I love it when I get the opportunity to preach Christ and all that He has done for us. We have a great salvation in Him!

Resting? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Did Christ actually do enough for us? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

One question Bruce.
How does someone else displaying bitterness and malice instead of love defile me? (I understand that it is their own selves being defiled.)

 

[Grace777x70]

One question Bruce.
How does someone else displaying bitterness and malice instead of love defile me? (I understand that it is their own selves being defiled.)

It can affect people because it can spread like cancer - not only in ourselves but to the hearers of this type of behavior.

Hebrews 12:15 speaks of it. God did not "predestine" we live by bitterness.....I believe that is one of the reasons why the Lord said to "Guard your heart with all diligence because out of it come the issues or forces of life".

This is also why we are admonished by Paul to not associate with them that continue to have this behavior without any repentnace.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;


1 Corinthians 15:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

 

[notuptome]

Since you want to talk about self-righteousness, you can explain how Hyp******ers like yourself establish your own righteousness through your doctrine that grace does everything & eliminates the "believer" from doing anything.

1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

BTW, this scripture is for more than the Jew.

Hebrew 13:18 ¶ Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

If Christ does not make you righteous you are not righteous. You cannot be made perfect in every good work except Christ works through you.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Where does your righteousness come from?

Ro 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It can affect people because it can spread like cancer - not only in ourselves but to the hearers of this type of behavior.

Hebrews 12:15 speaks of it. God did not "predestine" we live by bitterness.....I believe that is one of the reasons why the Lord said to "Guard your heart with all diligence because out of it come the issues or forces of life".

This is also why we are admonished by Paul to not associate with them that continue to have this behavior without any repentnace.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;


1 Corinthians 15:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

Ah, okay. It is not that it will necessarily defile a man but we are all learning to walk in the Spirit and to do so more and more consistently. But it is easy for our flesh to get stirred up and when it does, we walk in the flesh.

I have seen people, whether I personally agreed with them or not, walking well in the Spirit, and one bitter person comes in and down goes that person who had been walking well because their flesh got stirred up. It does spread, you're right. And even the man who had been walking so well cannot see, however you may try to show him where he went wrong and where he was yanked under, that he even HAS been yanked under.

 

[Grace777x70]

Ah, okay. It is not that it will necessarily defile a man but we are all learning to walk in the Spirit and to do so more and more consistently. But it is easy for our flesh to get stirred up and when it does, we walk in the flesh.

I have seen people, whether I personally agreed with them or not, walking well in the Spirit, and one bitter person comes in and down goes that person who had been walking well because their flesh got stirred up. It does spread, you're right. And even the man who had been walking so well cannot see, however you may try to show him where he went wrong and where he was yanked under, that he even HAS been yanked under.

Yes...I see what you mean too. By itself - it has no power to defile us. I agree 100%. It can defile us if we are deceived by it and yes the flesh can "act up".

That's why in extreme cases it's best not to interact with them just like Paul said in Romans 16:17 because until repentance comes we are just promoting the bad behavior by engaging them and we too can get caught up in it.

We always look for reconciliation and welcome back fellowship as they are still our brethren whom Jesus and the Father love vehemently and He will be faithful to them.

God has "predestined" this too!...

 

[1ofthem]

All I truly know is that God revealed Himself to me and if He hadn't, I'd have gone on in my unbelief that He even existed. I have things that I can't wrap my head around just like you do, 1ofthem. And one of those things is that I know I didn't just choose to believe it was all true. He revealed Himself to me. That is why I believed. Without having met Him, I could choose to believe it was true all I wanted, but there would have been no certainty. And I can't wrap my head around anyone He reveals Himself to choosing to NOT believe He exists. I don't think it is possible. But then, I don't think believing He exists is enough. I don't think either that believing I will live forever is enough.

With me it was totally different. I've believed in God for as long as I can remember. I always knew he was real. However, I did not choose to accept him or salvation for all those years. I chose to do my own thing knowing exactly where that road would end. Even though I believed in God, I was not saved by no means. It took me coming to a place in my life where I knew I wanted the Lord more than any other thing, before I made the choice to accept him into my life. He called me, but he did not make me accept the call.

I can see where we are coming from totally different experiences in life. However, I believe that God reveals himself to everyone and then it is each individuals choice to accept or reject him.

 

[BeyondET]

You honestly admit in one of your other posts that the way the sentence is constructed, it fits perfectly with my view. In order to not fit with my view, (which is based on that sentence, along with many others), the sentence has to be constructed differently. You, yourself said that you wish it had been constructed differently. But if I do not have to reconstruct it to perfectly fit my view, maybe my view came FROM the verse. Just a thought.

Well I think you lost me there...

 

[PeterJens]

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Here is the lie. Actions do not matter it is where it comes from that says whether
it is good or bad. Rubbish.

Squid ink is sprayed on good works, to condemn them and discourage people from
expressing love for any reason. The Lord does not discourage anything good, He
merely said if you do it for yourself alone, that is all the reward you will get.

The heretics have a different agenda.
All sin forgiven, so people are judged only on good works, for Christ or for ones
self. And people will be sent to hell for rejecting Christ and doing good works
not of Christ so therefore are evil deeds except they are not.

It is this weird theology that creates this bizzar fascination with the evil of good
works.

Our whole focus is firstly on getting a true pure heart, cleansed and redeemed so
we can see aright how to help people. Once we have the insight then we can apply
our efforts to good purpose to help bring light on the issues of sin that debilitate and
destroy many, and bring the love and peace of Christ into hurt lives.

Do you see the difference? We are channels of Gods wisdom, purity and love, so that
they might taste and see what life really is like, once freed from the burden of sin.

Now this is all impossible if sin still holds your heart, and you continually are defeated
bound and gagged. You are exactly the reason why people do not want to know your
faith or your claims it helps, because obviously that is not true the way you believe.

And this continual warfare against Gods words and gospel further compounds the enemies
tactics.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a truth from Major Ian Thomas that drives the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset belief system crazy that can find it's way into any of us.

Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

God has "predestined" that in Christ and His life being manifested in and through us that the good works that He has prepared before the foundation of the earth be manifested in and through us by His power and grace.

Without Him = we can do nothing.

( I think I'm catching on to this "predestination" thing... )

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well I think you lost me there...

Haha! Just don't forget that you lost me first.
So you started it! HAHA!
I'll go find the post, hang on.