Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Stephen63]

All born-again Christians are pure in heart. It's the same reason why all water is wet. It's the very nature of it.

Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!

I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.

In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and sais - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".

We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.

It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.

We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.

I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.

It blows my mind how false doctrine is spouted off & nobody notices.

Folks will argue over little things & let this pass right on thru.

Straining at gnats & swallowing camels.

So, G777, since we have a new heart, it's a pure heart & will forever remain pure?

King Saul proved that's not true. He was given a new heart & look at what he done with it.

And look at you & your "friends" on here..... false religion that is slowly changing, getting worse, & you claim all of them have pure hearts.

Fruits alone says that's a crock of bull.

All christians were given a new heart at conversion..... but it can be defiled. It can be hardened.

Just take a look around..... at all of these "pure" hearts.

It's not working, G777.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's ok I understand, think of it as (through faith) a narrative from Paul on how to obtain grace "it is The Gift" the plural representation within the verse.

I can rock with that! That it applies back to the entire previous sentence makes sense. It was only when it was not applied at all to the faith that I couldn't grasp how not. My entire thought is that to say the faith was not a gift is to take a gift from God and then condemn someone who has not yet received that gift. But then y'all have probably already gleaned my thought on it or how I see it.

 

[Stephen63]

Imagine a person standing before God at the Great White Throne Judgment hearing God say, "You did well. You accepted My Son as your Savior, you went to church, you raised your children well..... but sorry, I didn't choose you."

 

[Depleted]

Don't look at me I'm not the one who wanted to mention your blue to me YOU did,, yet now your back peddling.

Hmm making my side look good what on earth do you mean are you implying something??,, is this redirection, Astro projection, twistation

Okay, if you need it explained at a level even a first grader will get, I'll do that for you.

This is her definition of predestination -- "predestination is saying some folks will be condemned to hell just because that's what God wanted for them and no other real reason."

That is no more the definition of predestination than the word blue means wash. It is not the Biblical definition of predestination, a dictionary definition for the word predestination, nor anyone's definition of predestination. She has been told this numerous times in numerous ways and yet she is still pretending that's the definition of predestination.

And how do you "help?" By PRETENDING she is right in her definition and I'm playing games. (Which IS your game!)

Yeah, really. That is as stupid as it gets! You aren't helping her. You're not helping your position against reformed beliefs, and you're acting like a first grader repeating "But Mom, I didn't steal the cookie" while the cookie sits in your hand!

Grow up!

 

[Depleted]

LOL...Good one! I loved it!.....Yes....I agree - In the context that Jesus said of it.

John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Exactly! "This is the work of God." He did it!

Yay! We agree!

 

[Grace777x70]

King Saul was born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit even before Christ died on the cross and rose again? That's a new one.

Wow....looks like Christ didn't even need to die for our sins - we can save ourselves by our own works. Christ told Saul that in John14:16 when He said "The Holy Spirit will be with you and in you forever"? Is Jesus really a liar now? I don't believe He is. I'm a believer in what Jesus did for us.

We'll have to throw out all these "new heart" scriptures then. No, I believe I will keep them and have my minds renewed to the truths of the redemption that is in Christ.

God "predestined us to have a new heart that is created in righteousness - His righteousness which cannot be tainted".

Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.

The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heartto that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

When a woman says it to another woman it is extremely derogatory. Depending on the emphasis and tone.

Its a way of saying something, or implying what you think of someone, without expressly saying it. In a negative way.

Depending on the tone makes sense. She was probably a bit taken aback at being called a liar and so used the term. It appeared to me she was slightly annoyed. I don't like to be called a liar either when I'm discussing how I understand scripture. It is never my intention to just purposely lie. I don't think it's the intention of a single one of us in here.

To me, the word liar connotes intentionality to deceive. That's really not us. We don't come in here to talk with one another with bad motive like that. Thank goodness God looks on our hearts motive!

Thank you grandpa - you're such a sweetheart!

 

[Depleted]

What will you shout?

I'm elect and you are not? Plus what about the person who is elect but doesn't seek the kingdom of God? Will they be forced to enter heaven against their will?

I think we must shout John 3:16 that whosoever will may come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Look at this! Jesus has set me free of Death Row to follow him! Yippee! Let's get out of Death Row! Join him!

 

[Grace777x70]

Exactly! "This is the work of God." He did it!

Yay! We agree!

I know!..It's exciting! I told you this before but I asked the Lord if we could live by each other in heaven....

 

[Depleted]

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits,and the more Christlike they are,which is to represent goodness,and proclaim that,I would say the more in the truth they are.

I seen people claim to be part of the elect,chosen,but their lifestyle in acting like Christ was not as good as some that did not believe God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,so how can that be if they are chosen and elect.

For you will know them by their fruits,and many are called but few are chosen.

People that say we can abstain from sin by the Spirit,have a better success rate of acting like Christ,than those who say we cannot abstain from sin,for no matter how hard they try it will get them,as if they are being forced to sin,and they hold unto sin which is dangerous,and they lost the battle with that attitude,all the while saying we are chosen,and elect.

What's the stats on "success rate?" Who is doing the judging and what are the perimeters? I'd love to see that study. (Marketing nerd, so I really like success rate studies. lol)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I know!..It's exciting! I told you this before but I asked the Lord if we could live by each other in heaven....

Oh great...Bruce will eat you out of house and home in heaven every refeed Friday...hahaha!!
He'll knock on your door, come in and raid your fridge, plop his feet up on your coffee table and eat all your ice cream.

 

[BeyondET]

Okay, if you need it explained at a level even a first grader will get, I'll do that for you.

This is her definition of predestination -- "predestination is saying some folks will be condemned to hell just because that's what God wanted for them and no other real reason."

That is no more the definition of predestination than the word blue means wash. It is not the Biblical definition of predestination, a dictionary definition for the word predestination, nor anyone's definition of predestination. She has been told this numerous times in numerous ways and yet she is still pretending that's the definition of predestination.

And how do you "help?" By PRETENDING she is right in her definition and I'm playing games. (Which IS your game!)

Yeah, really. That is as stupid as it gets! You aren't helping her. You're not helping your position against reformed beliefs, and you're acting like a first grader repeating "But Mom, I didn't steal the cookie" while the cookie sits in your hand!

Grow up!

well I'm happy that your willing to talk more plainly and treat me as a first grader, it's way better than all the Blue dish analogy over and over again. I'd rather have it straight up then having to figure out 3 pennies, five pockets, a flat tire on my car with two doors broken and one hanging off and 6 people looking for ride...

 

[Depleted]

Hello Ash or whatever your real name is.....Maybe Ashley.. Anyways, I can see how believing in predestination could be a comfort but what about the many passages like this one. Luke 13:34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem. you who kills the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. It sure seems to me that the Bible teaches free will. How could we have a love relationship with Christ or anybody else with out the ability to chose?

How do you see the Bible teaching free will? I keep seeing it teaching slavery. We are slaves to sin or Jehovah is our master/Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh great...Bruce will eat you out of house and home in heaven every refeed Friday...hahaha!!
He'll knock on your door, come in and raid your fridge, plop his feet up on your coffee table and eat all your ice cream.

\


Amen! Today is a great day!

 

[BeyondET]

How do you see the Bible teaching free will? I keep seeing it teaching slavery. We are slaves to sin or Jehovah is our master/Lord.

NA your not slave, it's the estimated 30 million people in the world today.

 

[Depleted]

My position is in relation to the OP. the context of my point is that God inspires all in the direction of salvation. but we either submit and surrender to the moving of the spirit or resist.

John 3:19-20. We resisted. All of us!
John 3:21 -- the Father wrought.

 

[Grandpa]

Despite your unnecessarily caustic reply I am universal in Gods call for all to be saved. Not all will be saved because not all will receive so I'm not universalist in the meaning of the term.

It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance not severity. God is merciful and causes it to rain on the good and the evil. Were it not for the mercy of God all men would have perished but Gods mercy holds back His terrible wrath to give men space to repent and receive Christ.

Your understanding causes the conflict between Romans 11:32 and Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15 not Gods intent. God knows the future but this foreknowledge does not constrain Him to cause certain events to pass. Foreknowledge does not mean predetermination or predestination. Reminds me of the illustration of the Calvinist who fell down the steps at church and broke his arm. He got up and said thank you God I'm glad we got that out of the way. Did God predestine him to fall down the steps and break his arm?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

First of all, I just want to say that we can't know for 100% who is absolutely correct here because we are not God. I don't want you to think I am being prideful or condescending....

But, some have 'chosen' God and some have not.

What is in the ones who have chosen God that make them better equipped to respond than the ones who did not? Whatever it is, don't they then have room to boast?

I have more faith, I have more intelligence, I have more goodness, than you... etc???

 

[notuptome]

Look at this! Jesus has set me free of Death Row to follow him! Yippee! Let's get out of Death Row! Join him!

But if they are not predestined or elect they cannot. Why torment them with eternal life if they cannot possess it?

God reaches down to man but man does not reach up to God.

Esau wept bitterly but could not recover his birthright.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

It all sounds very chummy, arranging meals in heaven.

I suppose as all believers are save and guaranteed a place in heaven, this presumptive
language is appropriate.

But then we come to every born again believer has a pure heart.

I think a lot of evil doers who do not have a pure heart are going to have a big shock.

 

[Depleted]

So Romans 11:32 is not in your bible?

Part is intended to be nonsense and to provoke some to see how unbiblical their position actually presents itself.

Christ opined how He would have often gathered Israel as a hen gathers her chicks but they would not. God is still merciful even if man rejects that mercy. John 3 tells us that some turn away from the Light because of their evil deeds. Yet God still is merciful though He is rejected.

God calls but not all will respond. Christ died for all but not all will receive Him. Still God is merciful because He loves His creation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here's a sentence from a well-known novel you probably read somewhere in your life.
"Thirty yards of board fence nine feet high."*

There you go. Now, want to extrapolate the whole story from that one sentence? That's what you're doing with Romans, so why not from that book too. Crystal clear what that book is and how the entire story is framed around that one sentence, right?

No? Same thing with Romans. You can't go off with one little verse, especially when the verse starts with "For," which clearly makes it obvious you have to understand what comes before it to get to that part, and pretend your proof of whatever you want it to say is right. You have to keep it in context! (Same thing with John 3:16, since you're doing the same little game there.)

Romans covers all of it. It is the Christian treatise. It is exactly who God is, what he's doing, why, and how. It is built layer upon layer to prove the point. And Romans 12 anything isn't the point! It's our reaction to the point.

John 3:16 is part of the point, but Jesus talked at length to that soldier and John 3:16 alone is simply avoiding all the other points Jesus made, to be comfy cozy in what Jesus was saying, versus dealing with what he said!

Want to read the point? Then read all of Romans, because every objection you have to God choosing is asked and answered in that book. Want to know who God regenerates and how? Then read everything Jesus said to that soldier instead of the one isolated part you really like. God is in there! He is the point! He did it all. Even the choosing. God saves his people. We do NOT save ourselves by choice! You really don't have to praise God from setting you free from Death Row if you walked out on your own!




*Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain. (And that's the description of the fence that had to be whitewashed, so it really did add to the story, but it is NOT the story.)