TRIBULATION LIE
- Thread starter samuel23
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G
Revelation 7:
[SUP]9[/SUP] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [SUP]10[/SUP] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [SUP]12[/SUP] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Why would it say "came out of great tribulation" if they were removed before the 'great tribulation' even started?
[SUP]9[/SUP] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [SUP]10[/SUP] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [SUP]12[/SUP] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Why would it say "came out of great tribulation" if they were removed before the 'great tribulation' even started?
G
Guess again...
The 'Day of the Lord' starts when He "arrives on the scene" to set up His 1000-year reign ( His Earthly Kingdom ).
The 'Day of the Lord' is both - the 1000 years - and - the first day of that 1000 years ( the most-often referred to ).
BTW - there are at least 58 places that speak of the day of the Lord.
The 'Day of the Lord' starts when He "arrives on the scene" to set up His 1000-year reign ( His Earthly Kingdom ).
The 'Day of the Lord' is both - the 1000 years - and - the first day of that 1000 years ( the most-often referred to ).
BTW - there are at least 58 places that speak of the day of the Lord.
ok, maybe I was a little harsh but it seems you will not listen and you will not offer scripture to prove your point... My point is simple, In Rev 4-5 the Church is in heaven (the 24 elders). In Rev 5:8 "...twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Then in verse 9.."And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
ok in Rev 5:8...we find the 24 elders holding 'golden vials of odours' which are the prayers of SAINTS. The CHURCH.
In 5:9 we get a little more specific......The elders (They) are singing a NEW SONG which includes the words...."thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
Does that not sound like the Church (Saints)......I am telling you they are already there in Heaven by this time.
This is Long before the tribulations which start at the 6th seal. rev. 6:15-17
Where you are going wrong is the 70th week of Daniel. the 7 years of tribulations, God's wrath. Jesus called the last half of the Tribulations, the Great Tribulations but as seen in Rev 6:15-17... all of it is God's Wrath.
Then in Matt 24:29-31...."......after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,..."
Rev 6:12-13...""the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.....13."the stars of heaven fell unto the earth"
This is the starting point of the Tribulations, God's wrath. the 6th Seal is OPENed
Matt 24:31..."And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Notice....."they shall gather together his elect".. NOT from the earth but from Heaven...oops.."from one end of heaven to the other."
You see , we the elect (Saints, 24 elders, church, etc.) will already be in heaven, when he comes to Earth with his heavenly army (US). Prior to the Tribulations.
NOW, I started it,,,you tell where I went wrong and we will go from there or show everybody you are all hot air. Put that 54 years of study to work.
You say that it bothers you that the people who are waiting for the Rapture will fall from Grace if He does not catch-us-up.
I say, if the Rapture does not come, then we who are pre-tribers are use to waiting and will continue to wait until we die which at that time we will go to heaven in spirit to await the rapture. It will be a WIN--WIN situation.
On the other hand, those of you who are preterist and post-tribers will most certainly have a problem when the Rapture actually happens. Will your faith in Jesus regardless of whether you are watching for the rapture get you to heaven. I actually hope it would but from all scripture that Jesus told us about, it will not. If you are not watching, as in the 10 virgins, you just might be left behind.
Then where will your faith be. If you die being left behind, you get a three choices. Either you re-up your faith in Jesus and die a martyr.
You could die before you re-up your faith in Jesus. In this case, You will have to await the Great Throne Judgement.
There is one other way and that is to live through the entire 7 years and help populate the earth during the Millennium.
The last two is what I worry about. These are what I think will happen to those that are not watching. It is very apparent that as a preterist, post-triber, all other apostates denominations including the RCC are NOT Watching.
Then in verse 9.."And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
ok in Rev 5:8...we find the 24 elders holding 'golden vials of odours' which are the prayers of SAINTS. The CHURCH.
In 5:9 we get a little more specific......The elders (They) are singing a NEW SONG which includes the words...."thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
Does that not sound like the Church (Saints)......I am telling you they are already there in Heaven by this time.
This is Long before the tribulations which start at the 6th seal. rev. 6:15-17
Where you are going wrong is the 70th week of Daniel. the 7 years of tribulations, God's wrath. Jesus called the last half of the Tribulations, the Great Tribulations but as seen in Rev 6:15-17... all of it is God's Wrath.
Then in Matt 24:29-31...."......after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,..."
Rev 6:12-13...""the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.....13."the stars of heaven fell unto the earth"
This is the starting point of the Tribulations, God's wrath. the 6th Seal is OPENed
Matt 24:31..."And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Notice....."they shall gather together his elect".. NOT from the earth but from Heaven...oops.."from one end of heaven to the other."
You see , we the elect (Saints, 24 elders, church, etc.) will already be in heaven, when he comes to Earth with his heavenly army (US). Prior to the Tribulations.
NOW, I started it,,,you tell where I went wrong and we will go from there or show everybody you are all hot air. Put that 54 years of study to work.
You say that it bothers you that the people who are waiting for the Rapture will fall from Grace if He does not catch-us-up.
I say, if the Rapture does not come, then we who are pre-tribers are use to waiting and will continue to wait until we die which at that time we will go to heaven in spirit to await the rapture. It will be a WIN--WIN situation.
On the other hand, those of you who are preterist and post-tribers will most certainly have a problem when the Rapture actually happens. Will your faith in Jesus regardless of whether you are watching for the rapture get you to heaven. I actually hope it would but from all scripture that Jesus told us about, it will not. If you are not watching, as in the 10 virgins, you just might be left behind.
Then where will your faith be. If you die being left behind, you get a three choices. Either you re-up your faith in Jesus and die a martyr.
You could die before you re-up your faith in Jesus. In this case, You will have to await the Great Throne Judgement.
There is one other way and that is to live through the entire 7 years and help populate the earth during the Millennium.
The last two is what I worry about. These are what I think will happen to those that are not watching. It is very apparent that as a preterist, post-triber, all other apostates denominations including the RCC are NOT Watching.
Revelation 7:
[SUP]9[/SUP] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [SUP]10[/SUP] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [SUP]12[/SUP] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Why would it say "came out of great tribulation" if they were removed before the 'great tribulation' even started?
[SUP]9[/SUP] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [SUP]10[/SUP] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [SUP]12[/SUP] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Why would it say "came out of great tribulation" if they were removed before the 'great tribulation' even started?
The Day of the Lord s Gods Wrath. It is not a single Day, anyone can see that. I my word search I found 31.....That was enough to discount your understanding.
Yes, I did , I have to admit.....It is one of my many weaknesses. It happens when I finally realize I do not have the skills to get across so simple of an event. I so want everyone possible to be taken up by the rapture because I know there is no other way than to martyr yourself or live through the entire 70th week.when you are left behind..
Thank you for calling me on it.
Thank you for calling me on it.
not so---See Rev 6:15-17.."15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
someone previously stated that the people who were hiding said the verse 17.....NO Notice the Colon: a separator from the other part of the paragraph....... This actually comes from Jesus Himself.."For the great day of his wrath is come"
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
someone previously stated that the people who were hiding said the verse 17.....NO Notice the Colon: a separator from the other part of the paragraph....... This actually comes from Jesus Himself.."For the great day of his wrath is come"
G
No - this is the end of "the Tribulations"...
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I noticed that you quoted the verse, but left out the word 'Immediately'. What is that about?
Even still -- what you posted says "after" -- but, you say that it really means "before"...???
Where you are going wrong is the 70th week of Daniel.
Believe-it-or-not!
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I noticed that you quoted the verse, but left out the word 'Immediately'. What is that about?
Even still -- what you posted says "after" -- but, you say that it really means "before"...???
Where you are going wrong is the 70th week of Daniel.
Believe-it-or-not!
you said:"if the Holy Spirit is GONE with the church no one can be saved during the trib.....the SPIRIT convinces, convicts and enlightens."
The restrainer as you don't wan to put it in all around and in everyone that is a true believer. When the Church (true believers) is taken by the Rapture, the restrainer while still on earth will have no reason to restrain mankind from itself and their propensity to create ways to inflict the greatest pain on a person prior to their death.
There are no holes. Beyond Rev 4 there is no mention of the Church anymore. Why, because God's attention has turned back to Israel. The Church (Saints, 24 elders, redeemed ones, ) is already in Heaven. See rev 5:8-9....
The verse is not talking about believers going to hell.
What do the "gates of hell" represent?
In my view, Jesus is saying that the "gates of hell" shall not 'outlast' the church that He will build -- that, the church will 'outlast' hell itself.
And, since it will not be until after the 1000-year reign of Christ that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire...
Food for thought...
What do the "gates of hell" represent?
In my view, Jesus is saying that the "gates of hell" shall not 'outlast' the church that He will build -- that, the church will 'outlast' hell itself.
And, since it will not be until after the 1000-year reign of Christ that hell will be thrown into the lake of fire...
Food for thought...
Do What?????/That isnot food for thought,,It is pure Gibberish.
"Gates of Hell" are just that....Gates....An opening in the area of Shoel call Hades, Hell, etc...... to which beings may pass through. When Jesus died, he went to Hell for three days. When he Arose, He defeated Death. So the Gates of Hell shall not bother the elect or church.
Why can you not see that God's wrath start at Rev 6: 15-17. Where is the time for the Bema seat, The wedding supper,,, if Post rapture... Up and Down.....I guess as someone else said,,, Guess we will just have a sack lunch.
.nothing you say will change my mind
Ah,,,,,, If this is the case, then you and I have nothing concerning the Bible to argue about.....
Tomorrow Saturday here will be a rainy day. Good day to read a good book.
G
The colon is both a 'separator' and a 'connector'.
In Revelation 6:15-17, verse 17 is an 'extension' explanation of verse 16 - and is part of what 'the people who were hiding' said...
Grammatically speaking, what does the word 'For' in verse 17 have to stand on if it does not refer back to verse 16?
( You are grasping for something in the dark. )
In Revelation 6:15-17, verse 17 is an 'extension' explanation of verse 16 - and is part of what 'the people who were hiding' said...
Grammatically speaking, what does the word 'For' in verse 17 have to stand on if it does not refer back to verse 16?
( You are grasping for something in the dark. )
A
I think samuel23 has a point, though I wonder if he knows how to Scripturally prove it. A few points. Several people seem to think that the tribulation has been going on since the time of messiah's resurrection. But when the Apostle John was given the Revelation he was told,
Revelation 1:1
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
The setting and context of The book of Revelation is the future, John was seeing a Tribulation and a Great Tribulation that had not yet begun.
To the Church of Philadelphia Yahushua (Jesus) says,
Revelation 3:10
10. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Over and over throughout the Book of Revelation it is clear that the Tribulation is an event that had not yet come. But the hotest topic here seems to be whether the "pre-tribulation" theology is valid or not. I say not and can prove it with Scripture, which by the way I found to be lacking in most of what I read. All our thoughts and words mean nothing brothers and sisters if they are not taught in the Scriptures. If it's not in the Bible, then there is no light in it and it is accursed.
Isaiah 8:20
20. To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Galatians 1:8-9
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
So here are some verses to consider on the topic of "when" or even "if" Rapture. Let's also be clear that the word "Rapture" is no where in the Scriptural text, not in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. And yes, determining the timing is not only important but perhaps crucial for believers. I read a comment that said, "let's just trust Christ and see what happens", really! Faith without works is dead and so will you be if you wait around for deliverance that won't be coming. Let's look at some pictures given in the Scriptures that point to the end times. In Exodus when Yahweh (God) poured out His wrath on Egypt what happened to the Hebrews living in Goshen. Did He wisk them away secretly before the plagues started? Or did He protect them through the plagues?
Exodus 8:22-23
22. And in that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there, in order that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the land.
23. I will make a difference between My people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall be." ' "
Exodus 9:4
4. And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel." ' "
Exodus 11:7
7. But against none of the children of Israel shall a dog move its tongue, against man or beast, that you may know that the LORD does make a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.'
Egypt represents the world, Pharoah represents the ruler of the world, the bondage of slavery on the Hebrews represents sin, which leads to death, and the plagues represent the tribulation that is to come over the whole world. Just as Yahweh judged Egypt, the ruler of Egypt, and Egypts "gods" (Ex.12:12) so He will judge this world with tribulation, He will defeat the "current" ruler of this world, Satan (John 16:11), He will finally bring down the dragon and by so doing He will once and for all break the bondage of Sin, and while He is doing all this, He will protect His people in a "set apart place", like Goshen in Egypt. The Messiah told a Parable that dirrectly teaches about who will be "taken away/raptured' in the end. Observe.
Matthew 13:24-30
24. Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25. but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28. He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29. But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
Matthew 13:39-43
39. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42. and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
So at the end of the age the wicked will be seperated from the Righteous, the wicked will be gathered together and taken away, and the righteous will remain. Which begs the question of how to properly interpret this teaching.
Matthew 24:40-42
40. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
42. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
We were always taught that the one taken was the righteous saved person, those "left behind" were the unsaved sinners. But to whom does the inheritance of the earth belong, the righteous or the wicked?
Psalms 37:9
9. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
Psalms 37:11
11. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalms 37:22
22. For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth, But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
Sounds like the wicked are the ones raptured, straight to hell fire, and the righteous are the ones "left behind" to inherit Covenant Promise of their Father, the earth. Hear again the words of Yahushua (Jesus)
Matthew 24:37-39
37. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
38. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39. and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
What happened when the flood came? Did Noah and his family get wisked off the earth while tribulation literally "rained" on the earth. Or did He protect them in the midst of that tribulation, take away the wicked from off the earth, and leave behind the Righteous to inherit the land? And this is the context of what we already read in the next few verses.
Matthew 24:40-41
40. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Clearly those taken in the field and at the mill are the wicked, and the ones left behind are the Righteous. Heaven is not our home brothers, the earth is our posession, has been since Yahweh breathed the breath of life into Adam and said,
Genesis 1:26-31
26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29. And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
30. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
31. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Here's how I see the picture playing out according to Scripture. Tribulation is coming. When it does we will either die for our faith or be protected from harm in some way on this earth as we await the return of our Messiah. Either way I say HalleluYah and Amein! When Yahushua does return these things will happen.
1. Every eye will see him (Matthew 24:30,Revelation 1:7)
2. The dead in Christ will then come out of the graves and rise up to meet Him in the air and we who are sill alive will follow. (Matthew 24:31,1 Corinthians 15:52,1 Thessalonians 4:16)
3. Yahushua with all His saints will take a quick flight to Jerusalem where He will set up His 1000 year reign over the earth. Once there He will destroy the armies of those that fought against Him, lock up the devil, level the earth and raise up His Holy City, carve a valley out of a Mountain, cause a river to flow and heal all the earth from it's Tribulation, set up a new Temple service and priesthood, Re-establish the sacrafices (But not for us as we are at this point sinless and incorruptable), Re-establish His Feast days, and penalties for not keeping them, and wil enforce mandatory Worship, Feast Keeping, New Moon Keeping and Sabbath Keeping (Seventh Day of the week as is commanded not Sunday which is not) world wide. HALLELUYAH!!!!!!! It's alot of work but someone has to do it. Please read Zechariah 14 , Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 47...You know what, you should just read all the books of the prophets. In my opinion the biggest problem with modern Christian interpretation of the end times is that those theologies are divorced from what the Prophets teach. A pre tribulation rapture, or a thousand years in heaven, or going to and or living in heaven at all ever are things never ever taught by the prophets when they spoke of the end times and the second coming of the Messiah. I have so much more I could say but i've taken up way to much space already, and I have a feeling plenty of people will have a think or two to say. Which is great, Iron sharpens Iron, so let's keep studying.
Revelation 1:1
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
The setting and context of The book of Revelation is the future, John was seeing a Tribulation and a Great Tribulation that had not yet begun.
To the Church of Philadelphia Yahushua (Jesus) says,
Revelation 3:10
10. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Over and over throughout the Book of Revelation it is clear that the Tribulation is an event that had not yet come. But the hotest topic here seems to be whether the "pre-tribulation" theology is valid or not. I say not and can prove it with Scripture, which by the way I found to be lacking in most of what I read. All our thoughts and words mean nothing brothers and sisters if they are not taught in the Scriptures. If it's not in the Bible, then there is no light in it and it is accursed.
Isaiah 8:20
20. To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Galatians 1:8-9
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
So here are some verses to consider on the topic of "when" or even "if" Rapture. Let's also be clear that the word "Rapture" is no where in the Scriptural text, not in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. And yes, determining the timing is not only important but perhaps crucial for believers. I read a comment that said, "let's just trust Christ and see what happens", really! Faith without works is dead and so will you be if you wait around for deliverance that won't be coming. Let's look at some pictures given in the Scriptures that point to the end times. In Exodus when Yahweh (God) poured out His wrath on Egypt what happened to the Hebrews living in Goshen. Did He wisk them away secretly before the plagues started? Or did He protect them through the plagues?
Exodus 8:22-23
22. And in that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there, in order that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the land.
23. I will make a difference between My people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall be." ' "
Exodus 9:4
4. And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel." ' "
Exodus 11:7
7. But against none of the children of Israel shall a dog move its tongue, against man or beast, that you may know that the LORD does make a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.'
Egypt represents the world, Pharoah represents the ruler of the world, the bondage of slavery on the Hebrews represents sin, which leads to death, and the plagues represent the tribulation that is to come over the whole world. Just as Yahweh judged Egypt, the ruler of Egypt, and Egypts "gods" (Ex.12:12) so He will judge this world with tribulation, He will defeat the "current" ruler of this world, Satan (John 16:11), He will finally bring down the dragon and by so doing He will once and for all break the bondage of Sin, and while He is doing all this, He will protect His people in a "set apart place", like Goshen in Egypt. The Messiah told a Parable that dirrectly teaches about who will be "taken away/raptured' in the end. Observe.
Matthew 13:24-30
24. Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25. but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28. He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29. But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
Matthew 13:39-43
39. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42. and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
So at the end of the age the wicked will be seperated from the Righteous, the wicked will be gathered together and taken away, and the righteous will remain. Which begs the question of how to properly interpret this teaching.
Matthew 24:40-42
40. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
42. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
We were always taught that the one taken was the righteous saved person, those "left behind" were the unsaved sinners. But to whom does the inheritance of the earth belong, the righteous or the wicked?
Psalms 37:9
9. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
Psalms 37:11
11. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalms 37:22
22. For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth, But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
Sounds like the wicked are the ones raptured, straight to hell fire, and the righteous are the ones "left behind" to inherit Covenant Promise of their Father, the earth. Hear again the words of Yahushua (Jesus)
Matthew 24:37-39
37. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
38. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39. and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
What happened when the flood came? Did Noah and his family get wisked off the earth while tribulation literally "rained" on the earth. Or did He protect them in the midst of that tribulation, take away the wicked from off the earth, and leave behind the Righteous to inherit the land? And this is the context of what we already read in the next few verses.
Matthew 24:40-41
40. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Clearly those taken in the field and at the mill are the wicked, and the ones left behind are the Righteous. Heaven is not our home brothers, the earth is our posession, has been since Yahweh breathed the breath of life into Adam and said,
Genesis 1:26-31
26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29. And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
30. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
31. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Here's how I see the picture playing out according to Scripture. Tribulation is coming. When it does we will either die for our faith or be protected from harm in some way on this earth as we await the return of our Messiah. Either way I say HalleluYah and Amein! When Yahushua does return these things will happen.
1. Every eye will see him (Matthew 24:30,Revelation 1:7)
2. The dead in Christ will then come out of the graves and rise up to meet Him in the air and we who are sill alive will follow. (Matthew 24:31,1 Corinthians 15:52,1 Thessalonians 4:16)
3. Yahushua with all His saints will take a quick flight to Jerusalem where He will set up His 1000 year reign over the earth. Once there He will destroy the armies of those that fought against Him, lock up the devil, level the earth and raise up His Holy City, carve a valley out of a Mountain, cause a river to flow and heal all the earth from it's Tribulation, set up a new Temple service and priesthood, Re-establish the sacrafices (But not for us as we are at this point sinless and incorruptable), Re-establish His Feast days, and penalties for not keeping them, and wil enforce mandatory Worship, Feast Keeping, New Moon Keeping and Sabbath Keeping (Seventh Day of the week as is commanded not Sunday which is not) world wide. HALLELUYAH!!!!!!! It's alot of work but someone has to do it.
Please read Zechariah 14 , Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 47...You know what, you should just read all the books of the prophets. In my opinion the biggest problem with modern Christian interpretation of the end times is that those theologies are divorced from what the Prophets teach. A pre tribulation rapture, or a thousand years in heaven, or going to and or living in heaven at all ever are things never ever taught by the prophets when they spoke of the end times and the second coming of the Messiah. I have so much more I could say but i've taken up way to much space already, and I have a feeling plenty of people will have a think or two to say. Which is great, Iron sharpens Iron, so let's keep studying.
Good evening AbdiyEL,
"The great day of the Lordis near—near and coming quickly." - Zephaniah 1:14
"Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come." - Joel 2:1-2
"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame." - Isaiah 13:6-8
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." - Rev.1:1
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." - Rev.1:3
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
The day of the Lord spoken of by the OT prophets, as well as in the book of Revelation, are referring to the same time of God's wrath against mankind, also referred to as "the hour of trial" and "the great day." This time of God's coming wrath is neither an hour nor a day in length, but is a phrase designating a period of time in which God's wrath will take place.
Regarding this time of wrath, what both the OT prophets and the book of Revelation have in common, is that this time of wrath, the day of the Lord is referred to as "soon taking place" and "the time is near." Now, being that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God has yet to take place, it should move the reader to reconsider the meaning of those phrases, for it certainly couldn't be referring to our understanding of being either a day, week, month or year away. For 2800 years or so have passed since making reference to that day being near or shortly to take place.
Since the gathering of the church is apart of the day of the Lord and in fact what initiates it, the reference to being near is synonymous with the Lord's return which has always been imminent for both the OT prophets and the apostles. Therefore, the meaning of "the day of the Lord" is that it is always near, about to happen, on the horizon, looming, in the workings, etc. The phrase "is near" or "is close at hand" is referring to the day of the Lord, the time period of God's wrath, as always being imminent.
The information contained in the book of Revelation regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are a detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. 2800 years later we are still saying that the day of the Lord is near, about to take place. The only difference between believers today vs. the OT prophets and the apostles, is that we can say with certainty that the day of the Lord is approaching quickly and that because we are seeing all of the signs. We are seeing the stage being set for that time of God's wrath and the reign of the antichirst.
The word "Rapture" is from the Latin "Rapio" which has the same meaning of the Greek word "harpazo" which is the word used in 1 Thes.4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be [caught up] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Harpazo/Rapio is defined as "properly to seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, to seize, catch up, snatch away."
Harpazo is the same word used when Paul said that he was "caught up" to the third heaven. And is the same word used when Philip was "snatched away" from the Eunuch. It is also the same word used to describe the male child of Rev.12:5 being "caught up" to God and to his throne. So yes, the word is in deed there in the scripture.
In reference to 1 Thes.4:16-17, based on the rest of the context, the meaning is that when the Lord apppears, believers will be caught up to meet Christ in the air in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 where the Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house (heaven).
"The great day of the Lordis near—near and coming quickly." - Zephaniah 1:14
"Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come." - Joel 2:1-2
"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame." - Isaiah 13:6-8
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." - Rev.1:1
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." - Rev.1:3
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
The day of the Lord spoken of by the OT prophets, as well as in the book of Revelation, are referring to the same time of God's wrath against mankind, also referred to as "the hour of trial" and "the great day." This time of God's coming wrath is neither an hour nor a day in length, but is a phrase designating a period of time in which God's wrath will take place.
Regarding this time of wrath, what both the OT prophets and the book of Revelation have in common, is that this time of wrath, the day of the Lord is referred to as "soon taking place" and "the time is near." Now, being that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God has yet to take place, it should move the reader to reconsider the meaning of those phrases, for it certainly couldn't be referring to our understanding of being either a day, week, month or year away. For 2800 years or so have passed since making reference to that day being near or shortly to take place.
Since the gathering of the church is apart of the day of the Lord and in fact what initiates it, the reference to being near is synonymous with the Lord's return which has always been imminent for both the OT prophets and the apostles. Therefore, the meaning of "the day of the Lord" is that it is always near, about to happen, on the horizon, looming, in the workings, etc. The phrase "is near" or "is close at hand" is referring to the day of the Lord, the time period of God's wrath, as always being imminent.
The information contained in the book of Revelation regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are a detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. 2800 years later we are still saying that the day of the Lord is near, about to take place. The only difference between believers today vs. the OT prophets and the apostles, is that we can say with certainty that the day of the Lord is approaching quickly and that because we are seeing all of the signs. We are seeing the stage being set for that time of God's wrath and the reign of the antichirst.
The word "Rapture" is from the Latin "Rapio" which has the same meaning of the Greek word "harpazo" which is the word used in 1 Thes.4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be [caught up] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Harpazo/Rapio is defined as "properly to seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, to seize, catch up, snatch away."
Harpazo is the same word used when Paul said that he was "caught up" to the third heaven. And is the same word used when Philip was "snatched away" from the Eunuch. It is also the same word used to describe the male child of Rev.12:5 being "caught up" to God and to his throne. So yes, the word is in deed there in the scripture.
In reference to 1 Thes.4:16-17, based on the rest of the context, the meaning is that when the Lord apppears, believers will be caught up to meet Christ in the air in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 where the Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house (heaven).
Nice passages to point out their errors in looking at singular words to closely, we have to put scriptures together like a mosaic, and let all the passages paint the picture. EVEN SO, the passage in Rev. 1:1 which they point out is really not translated good with the word shortly. There are two Greek words where they use the word SHORTLY, en & tachos....so using one English word just feels like they shortchanged the meaning.
EN (Greek 1772) = meaning a fixed position in place, time or state.
TACHOS (Greek 5034 from 5036) 1) Quickness, speed....From 5036 meaning a brief space (of time) that is, (with G1722 PREFIXED) in haste + quickly + shortly + speedily. —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
So it seems like this might mean that at a fixed point in time his will come QUICKLY. I find to many people just trust blindly in the English translations. We have computers and thus God has given us the means to understand things deeper than ever before.
EN (Greek 1772) = meaning a fixed position in place, time or state.
TACHOS (Greek 5034 from 5036) 1) Quickness, speed....From 5036 meaning a brief space (of time) that is, (with G1722 PREFIXED) in haste + quickly + shortly + speedily. —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
So it seems like this might mean that at a fixed point in time his will come QUICKLY. I find to many people just trust blindly in the English translations. We have computers and thus God has given us the means to understand things deeper than ever before.
