Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[valiant]

Rev 3:5, Rev 13:8, Phil 4:3

Rev 3.5 promises our names will NOT be blotted out. It does not say anyone's name will be blotted out.

In rev 13.8 all who dwell on earth are not written in the book of life, .

In 17.8 they were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Thus it could not be the same as the book of the living.

 

[notuptome]

Rev 3.5 promises our names will NOT be blotted out. It does not say anyone's name will be blotted out.

In rev 13.8 all who dwell on earth are not written in the book of life, .

In 17.8 they were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Thus it could not be the same as the book of the living.

Why make a promise if there were none who would be blotted out?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Lynn,

I have always assumed that the body of Jesus after His resurrection was His new glorified body because of the following verse.

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15:42–44)

He also told the Jews if they destroy this temple, in three days He would raise it up referring to His own body.

When he appeared to the disciples and they were afraid because they thought a spirit had entered the room and they didn't recognize Jesus. I've always thought they didn't recognize Him because when our mortal bodies rise, we receive a new body and it will be different.

I think the new body of Jesus will always bear the scars as a memorial of what He did for us. I can't imagine Jesus, the Son, born of a woman changing His humanness because He was 100% God and 100% human. Why would He change that? That's what the 2nd person of the trinity is, God incarnate.

Jesus mentioned at His last passover meal that he would not drink wine with them again until He saw them again in the Father's Kingdom.

Are there scriptural reasons you think Jesus might not have a human body now? Also, I've always assumed that we would eat and drink because of the fruit tress described in Revelation and also because Jesus said he would drink wine in heaven. Great thoughts to ponder!





Those are good points...! I don't think we were considering all of that - you've helped us in this pondering lynn got us started on!

 

[Mike777]

You make a good point. Romans 15:1ff we who are strong ought to bear with the shortcomings of the weak. So amen...

 

[Mike777]

Our nature in inclined toward sin true, but how does it follow that there are no choices that you make? Did you choice to brush your teeth today or did God make you. What are you saying?

 

[wsblind]

Rev 3.5 promises our names will NOT be blotted out. It does not say anyone's name will be blotted out.

In rev 13.8 all who dwell on earth are not written in the book of life, .

In 17.8 they were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Thus it could not be the same as the book of the living.

3:5 promises that we(believers) will never be blotted out. This means people can be blotted out.

13:8 describes people who have been blotted out. they worship the beast, they get blotted out. They are not found in the book of life because they were blotted out for worshiping the beast.
When the book of life is mentioned it is at the time of final judgment. At final judgement, these people NEVER believed so they are not found in the book. They have been blotted out.

17:8 is describing the BOOK from the foundation of the world..........every person who has ever lived is in the book of life from the foundation of the world. They are blotted out if never have believed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Our nature in inclined toward sin true, but how does it follow that there are no choices that you make? Did you choice to brush your teeth today or did God make you. What are you saying?

Hi mike, it's nice to meet you.
It helps if you hit "reply with quote" for the post you want to ask about, then scroll to the bottom of the quote and type your response in, then hit post. So then we know which post you are giving your thoughts on.

 

[willybob]

Those seeking God with sincerity, heart purity, and obedience are the elect. It is better translated as the chosen..Noah is an example...God chose him based on the above merits...He is ALWAYS looking for someone to stand in the gap.

 

[wsblind]

Those seeking God with sincerity, heart purity, and obedience are the elect. It is better translated as the chosen..Noah is an example...God chose him based on the above merits...He is ALWAYS looking for someone to stand in the gap.

Whosoever believes are the elect. They are elected because they believed the Gospel that was shown to ALL men.

Christ and Christ ALONE stands in the gap.

 

[stonesoffire]

and they said it to those whose names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

You are right about the names being written before the foundation of the earth. Is this all names of all ever born? And would the blotting out be at the end of ones life by rejecting the gospel?

But, your quote here in this post is wrong.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and thebride say, "Come!" Let everyone who hears this say, "Come!" Let everyone who is thirsty come! Let anyone who wants the water of life take it as a gift!

 

[MattforJesus]

You are right about the names being written before the foundation of the earth. Is this all names of all ever born? And would the blotting out be at the end of ones life by rejecting the gospel?

But, your quote here in this post is wrong.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and thebride say, "Come!" Let everyone who hears this say, "Come!" Let everyone who is thirsty come! Let anyone who wants the water of life take it as a gift!

Right,the Spirit and bride say Come,and anybody can have that salvation,and God says He wants all people to repent,come to the truth,and be saved,and Jesus lights every person that comes in to this world,so people should harmonize scriptures.

It could be that everybody's name is already in the book of life,but can be blotted out by not making the choice concerning the truth.

But I think it is this.God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God in the beginning to happen in the future,it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.

All the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Word was in the beginning,although the Word is God manifest in the flesh,which came in the future,but was considered already in the beginning.

So although they were future events they were still considered as being in the beginning,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

So the names being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world could be a reference to that,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although it was a future event,and all works were already finished from the foundation of the world,although they were future events.

The saints having salvation in the beginning,but God wants all people to repent,come to the truth,and be saved,and the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation,so we have to harmonize scriptures,so the only thing that makes sense is that anybody can have that salvation,but since God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,it is the same as those that have chosen that salvation have that salvation in the beginning.

 

[sparkman]

I have not been on this chat in 3 years but I felt heavily compelled in my heart to write this today.


I have always struggled to make sense of the predestination verses. (Romans 8: 29-30, Matthew 11:27, Psalm 65:4, Romans 9, etc.) To make sense of it I tried to think that God chose people to be saved based of knowing the future and seeing people choosing Him, hence the “foreknowing” but now I know how flawed that way of thinking is. In regards to free will I used to think how God made the way of salvation clear and just waited for us to accept like a gift. I now know how flawed that way of thinking is as well.


Yes, these predestination verses helped me to better understand but I still fought against it because I didn’t want to believe that God would choose some and not others. Ultimately I wanted to believe that I had a choice. How selfish and prideful I was to think that way.


It was not a verse about predestination that opened the door to the truth but actually verses about our utter depravity of sin:
Psalm 53:2-3
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.



I have read these verses before but about 1-2 years ago these verses really hit home to how sinful I really am. We always want to find some kind of good in us, some kind of tiny little ray of light (even if it’s the act of choosing God) and to show God saying, “Look, I did this! I chose You!”


Ultimately that is pride. It is us trying to believe that we are capable of goodness outside of Christ. In reality that is not possible. Even as Christians we are filled with sin: our actions, out thoughts, even our prayers are tainted with sin. There is no escape, no explaining away, and no changing it. We are filled with sin at all times.


In addition, because we are always filled with sin, our base nature is to reject anything that is of Christ. We were born into rebellion and live on in ultimate rebellion before becoming a Christian. It is impossible for anything in us to choose the salvation of Christ. No matter how free, wonderful, loving etc…..it is impossible. Our sin nature would never allow it. Evil would never choose its destruction which is Christ.


That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?


I don’t know. Any you know what? I am ok with that. I trust God that He knows how it works and that gives me peace. Confusion is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you just have to lay it at the feet of Jesus and say, “Lord, You know.”
There is song that I have found by a Christian rapper named Shai Linne called “Election”. I highly recommend you give it a listen as it explains Election/Predestination quite well. I know you might have heard how free will is like someone who is floating out at sea and salvation is God throwing a rope at us and all we have to do is grab it. There is a part of this song that explains how flawed that line of thinking is:


“Some people say that we were drowning in the ocean
Barely floating until God threw us the rope then
Our free will helped us as we groped
Our faith is the hand that grabbed the rope and God put us back in the boat
Nope! Without apology I deny that analogy
Reality- we were dead at the bottom of the sea
I was a swollen corpse with hope no more
Until Jehovah the LORD dove from the shore to the ocean floor
Yeah, I was a corpse and I smelled like it
I’ll keep it simple, why did God choose me? Because He felt like it!
He brought me out, not an act of my volition
Breathed life into my lungs and didn’t ask for my permission”


I was a corpse at the bottom of the ocean. I could not grab that rope nor would I ever want to even if I could.


Honestly, I so glad that I had no say in my salvation. How awful would it be that God had to depend on our choice? That is like stripping power out of God’s hands and placing it in ours. Knowing how utterly sinful and disgusting I am, I am so thankful that it could only be by the grace of God that I could ever be saved. Depending on myself to accomplish any type of good is horrifying because I know that I am not capable of producing any good at all outside of Christ.


Lord Jesus, thank You!


I apologize for this being so long haha. It was just on my heart all morning as I was cleaning the house.

I would suggest that you need to study what foreknowledge from a Reformed perspective is, because some responders on this thread are defining it in terms of an Arminian viewpoint which will not be sustainable in a Reformed worldview. God foreknows individuals, not events, in a Calvinist worldview. He loves the foreknown individual in a special, distinguishing manner that he doesn't love the non elect. This is classic Reformed theology. Obviously he also knows their faith decision because he regenerates them which causes them to always respond in faith. Realize that the responses on this thread are a hodgepodge of Arminian and Reformed theology and that some of the responders may sound Reformed but are really Arminian. I recognize arguments used by Dave Hunt for example. I have a recent thread on foreknowledge and whether God foreknows individuals or events or both if you want more info.

 

[wsblind]

No one is elected to condemnation. They are born into condemnation.

It doesn't really make sense to elect everyone for something. The very word elect implies that some would not be included.

Did you choose to be born? Or were you elected to be born?

Some people were not elected to be born?

Everyone who has ever lived has been elected to be born. And everyone who has ever been born is elected to condemnation at birth.

Were you born a sinner and condemned at birth? Darn, it is is very hard one to answer, because you and I know where we are going with this if you give a straight up "yes" or "no" answer.

 

[wsblind]

I would suggest that you need to study what foreknowledge from a Reformed perspective is, because some responders on this thread are defining it in terms of an Arminian viewpoint which will not be sustainable in a Reformed worldview. God foreknows individuals, not events, in a Calvinist worldview. He loves the foreknown individual in a special, distinguishing manner that he doesn't love the non elect. This is classic Reformed theology. Obviously he also knows their faith decision because he regenerates them which causes them to always respond in faith. Realize that the responses on this thread are a hodgepodge of Arminian and Reformed theology and that some of the responders may sound Reformed but are really Arminian. I recognize arguments used by Dave Hunt for example. I have a recent thread on foreknowledge and whether God foreknows individuals or events or both if you want more info.

So what is your special, distinguished love that God has for you over everyone else?

 

[Johnny_B]

You are right about the names being written before the foundation of the earth. Is this all names of all ever born? And would the blotting out be at the end of ones life by rejecting the gospel?

But, your quote here in this post is wrong.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and thebride say, "Come!" Let everyone who hears this say, "Come!" Let everyone who is thirsty come! Let anyone who wants the water of life take it as a gift!

Philippians 3:3 "Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life."

Revelation 3:5 "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." The same word in Colossians 2:14 exilephō is translated "canceled" this is not saying that it could happen, it's saying it won't happen or can't happen. I know all things are possible with God and here He is guaranteeing that He will not do it.

Revelation13:8 "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Revelation 20:12, 15 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.......15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 20:27 "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."

It's the book of the elect, from or before the foundation of the world.

 

[sparkman]

I would suggest looking at this thread if one really wants to understand the difference in foreknowledge from an Arminian and Calvinist (Reformed) perspective.

People on the current thread largely are portraying foreknowledge in an Arminian sense rather than a Calvinist(Reformed) sense.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-events-both-does-romans-8-28-30-refer.html

Arminians assume foreknowledge means that God elects based on the individuals' choice to follow Him, which in reality means that God does not elect. Calvinists understand foreknowledge to mean that God fore-loves the person prior to their election; loving them in a distinguishing manner than he loves unredeemed mankind.

If the Arminian view is correct, then salvation is by personal merit and not totally by grace.

 

[Johnny_B]

I would suggest looking at this thread if one really wants to understand the difference in foreknowledge from an Arminian and Calvinist (Reformed) perspective.

People on the current thread largely are portraying foreknowledge in an Arminian sense rather than a Calvinist(Reformed) sense.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-events-both-does-romans-8-28-30-refer.html

Arminians assume foreknowledge means that God elects based on the individuals' choice to follow Him, which in reality means that God does not elect. Calvinists understand foreknowledge to mean that God fore-loves the person prior to their election; loving them in a distinguishing manner than he loves unredeemed mankind.

If the Arminian view is correct, then salvation is by personal merit and not totally by grace.

Amen!!! The faith first that brings grace, is a man centered Gospel, not a Gospel of grace.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's a Scripture to consider for all those that say they are saved by their faith and not by something God did in them.

I Corinthians 4:3-4 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

In other words that it was brought about my your own doing, by faith, not received grace, that "made you alive in Christ" that "caused you to be born again" the gift of God, is received, any gift even from man is received.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that faith is a positive response to what grace has already provided in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. God "predestined" us to be in Christ because of His great love for all of us and desires us to be with Him for all eternity. He loves us dearly and individually and unconditionally.

Whatever happens to us when we stand before Him will be a manifestation of His love. Even to those who reject Christ. His fervent love for them will burn them. This is the same principle as "doing good to those that despitefully use you and thus heap coals of fire on their heads".

He will take vengeance on the sin that is on them because of their unbelief in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Did you choose to be born? Or were you elected to be born?

Some people were not elected to be born?

Everyone who has ever lived has been elected to be born. And everyone who has ever been born is elected to condemnation at birth.

Were you born a sinner and condemned at birth? Darn, it is is very hard one to answer, because you and I know where we are going with this if you give a straight up "yes" or "no" answer.

You are attempting to put yourself in the place of God with your questions.

Only God knows what we were doing before birth. No one can say if they chose to be born.

No one can say they were under condemnation at birth. How do we know?


What we do know is that we aren't born with the knowledge of the Lord Jesus and what He has done for us. So if that is what your definition of condemnation is then you are right, everyone is born condemned. But I wonder if that is your definition of what condemnation is?

It sure seemed like I was born a sinner and under condemnation. But it also seemed like the Lord used all of that stuff to draw me to Him. So, on the one hand, I can say I experienced sin and had my conversation with the dark just like everyone else. But, on the other hand, I was chosen for Eternal Life.

When did God choose? Before I was born? When I was born? When I was 5? When I was 13? When I was 38?

If I was prideful and arrogant I would say that God chose when I was born again. But I don't really know that. Gods Ways and Gods Thoughts are high above my own. And because I know that, I know that I couldn't have chosen His Ways on my own. Even though I am really amazing. Really, Really amazing. I still couldn't do it. I don't know if you understand the level of amazing we are talking here. And I still couldn't do it.